714,000 on the dole and we wasnt to import workers to pick fruit & veg?

Pa ElGrande

Farm sector planning to fly in 1,500 seasonal workers to save fruit and veg harvest

Romanian and Bulgarian workers may be transported here on chartered flights

Chartered flights could be used to transport up to 1,500 seasonal workers into Ireland to pick fruit and vegetables through the summer and early autumn.

With travel restrictions in place across the EU due to the Covid-19 pandemic, fruit and vegetable growers have been in touch with Government to secure clearance for the workers to enter the country.

The vast majority of the pickers who work on Irish farms each year come from Romania and Bulgaria. However, with only a restricted schedule of commercial flights now available to these countries, the possibility of chartering airplanes to bring in workers is being considered.

source

Have we really turned into a nation of snowflakes. There are 45,000 students doing transition year, there are bugger all Summer jobs going this year at the current rate. This is a group that is at low risk of infection and with that many involuntarily people thrown on dole I'm sure families could do with an extra source of income and the students can get the work experience. As far as I know most of these have got their Safe Pass so there should be very little barriers to entry other than lack of experience.

Dodge

Interesting use of snowflakes when you seem to be getting annoyed at a fruit growers press release

lawrencesummers

What will you be picking yourself this summer?

Pa ElGrande

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What will you be picking yourself this summer?

I grow 12% of the food I consume every year. There will be plenty for me to harvest over the Summer. (assuming we are not due for biblical plagues this year as the locusts are already out in parts of the world :P )

Pa ElGrande

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

I grow 12% of the food I consume every year. There will be plenty for me to harvest over the Summer. (assuming we are not due for biblical plagues this year as the locusts are already out in parts of the world :P )

If them bloody things come then I hope the virus gets me first.

HalloweenJack

I don't see anything to suggest that the farmers are pursuing local options over migrant workers. 'Engaged' with the DEASP is quite vague and not a direct quote, unlike other stuff in the article.

The 'experience' line seems like a cop-out. There are plenty of people with nothing to do so they would have time to be trained. Also, migrant workers will be in limbo for two weeks because of quarantine. Give new hires two weeks to train starting now.

It must be far cheaper to get lads in from abroad at that rate. This can be spun two ways: farmers being stingey and taking advantage of the fact that migrant workers will do the job at a lower peice or 'entitled' Irish workers thinking they are above these jobs/deserve to be paid more. The truth is somewhere in between I imagine.

However, the article does mention rising costs and a plea from the IFA president to 'dig deep' so I can see it being tilted in one direction. If they want locals to help them out in this crisis, I think they need to give something back as well. Brand loyalty should be a two-way street.

Pa ElGrande

Dodge wrote: »

Interesting use of snowflakes when you seem to be getting annoyed at a fruit growers press release

It is a poor reflection on us personally that the farmers would first consider importing workers and lobby the government to that effect. There is a limited window to pick fruit and vegetables and we are sitting around twiddling our thumbs going insane with cabin fever. There is an opportunity for students to earn money and gain work experience, both they and their parents need to jump at the opportunity.

Fr Tod Umptious

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

It is a poor reflection on us personally that the farmers would first consider importing workers and lobby the government to that effect. There is a limited window to pick fruit and vegetables and we are sitting around twiddling our thumbs going insane with cabin fever. There is an opportunity for students to earn money and gain work experience, both they and their parents need to jump at the opportunity.

Many of the people now unemployed would be hoping to get back to their job in a few months, none of us really know how feasible that is but it's something we all hope for.

So why would anyone start a different career fruit picking when their regular job may be available in a few weeks/months ?

Secondly why would a farmer hire someone who would possibly leave mid season when their regular job becomes available again ?

Plus, the €350 a week is not unattractive, regardless of how long it will continue to be paid.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Many of the people now unemployed would be hoping to get back to their job in a few months, none of us really know how feasible that is but it's something we all hope for.

So why would anyone start a different career fruit picking when their regular job may be available in a few weeks/months ?

Secondly why would a farmer hire someone who would possibly leave mid season when their regular job becomes available again ?

Plus, the €350 a week is not unattractive, regardless of how long it will continue to be paid.

Get out of this thread with your common sense! :mad:


This is a thread for self-deprecating Irish people and farmer bashing.








:P

Pa ElGrande

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Many of the people now unemployed would be hoping to get back to their job in a few months, none of us really know how feasible that is but it's something we all hope for.

So why would anyone start a different career fruit picking when their regular job may be available in a few weeks/months ?

Secondly why would a farmer hire someone who would possibly leave mid season when their regular job becomes available again ?

Plus, the €350 a week is not unattractive, regardless of how long it will continue to be paid.

That's why I said target transition year students, low risk of infection, get them out of the house and stop driving their parents demented and earn some cash at the same time. This group will be looking to strike out on their own soon enough and here is an opportunity.

sydthebeat

"Fruit picking" is not a career.

Thephantomsmask

I believe these people that come in aren't paid minimum wage, it is like an Au pair type arrangement where they get bed and board so end up working for a few euro an hour? That is probably why locals don't do the work as they would have to be paid minimum wage.

Wanderer78

Pa ElGrande wrote:

That's why I said target transition year students, low risk of infection, get them out of the house and stop driving their parents demented and earn some cash at the same time. This group will be looking to strike out on their own soon enough and here is an opportunity.

Where is a teenager gonna be getting the money to be striking out on their own, well qualified and work experienced adults are struggling to leave the family home, and do you really think issues such as housing are gonna be solved soon?

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

"Fruit picking" is not a career.

Tell that to the man from Del Monte

Pa ElGrande

sydthebeat wrote: »

"Fruit picking" is not a career.

Most people don't have careeers they work to live and in an economic depression cash is king. The massive economic dislocation caused by payment failures happening across the chain will ripple across the world for the next few years with a very real possibility that if the lockdown does not end soon that more companies will run out of cash and permanently close.

silverharp

sydthebeat wrote: »

"Fruit picking" is not a career.

neither is barista :pac:

Wanderer78

Pa ElGrande wrote:

Most people don't have careeers they work to live and in an economic depression cash is king. The massive economic dislocation caused by payment failures happening across the chain will ripple across the world for the next few years with a very real possibility that if the lockdown does not end soon that more companies will run out of cash and permanently close.

We re not in a depression, money creation is relatively easy, unfortunately many businesses are gonna fail

Shefwedfan

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

I believe these people that come in aren't paid minimum wage, it is like an Au pair type arrangement where they get bed and board so end up working for a few euro an hour? That is probably why locals don't do the work as they would have to be paid minimum wage.

Incorrect, those days are long gone, Very few if any Au Pair are over here living on a pittance like years ago

If they pay enough,they have no issue getting pickers

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Where is a teenager gonna be getting the money to be striking out on their own, well qualified and work experienced adults are struggling to leave the family home, and do you really think issues such as housing are gonna be solved soon?

This is a good view of the Irish attitude of 2020, lots of excuses and loads of reason why they can’t do anything which is passed onto the youth of today

osarusan

Wah wah wah wah wah wah immigrants

gozunda

Looks like our overlords in Europe have beaten us on choosing to do their own thing as per usual. Germany relaxing its closed borders to bring in 1000s of migrant workers so they can have their harvests of 'white asparagus....

https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-04-12/Thousands-of-Romanian-farm-workers-head-to-Germany-despite-COVID-19-PBNWgayF4k/index.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-lifts-ban-on-foreign-workers-to-salvage-harvest-1.4226277

As a kid and teenager- I picked strawberries, stones from potato fields and apples. Back breaking and underpaid at best

I somehow doubt that many of our current generation of teenagers would appreciate similar type work.

A bigger problem is that going forward Europe and much of the rest of the world faces the very real potential of food shortages with vegetable and fruit crops going unharvested without workers

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/13/france-has-avoided-a-covid-19-food-shortage-but-for-how-long

Shefwedfan

osarusan wrote: »

Wah wah wah wah wah wah immigrants

In reality we need more and more immigrants because the Irish are unwilling to work anymore

StefanFal

I would argue it is you that's the snowflake.

paw patrol

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

I believe these people that come in aren't paid minimum wage, it is like an Au pair type arrangement where they get bed and board so end up working for a few euro an hour? That is probably why locals don't do the work as they would have to be paid minimum wage.

This.
I cant vouch for EVERY fruit grower but the ones I know near me do not pay min wage
they get around it by providing accommodation on site and I know they used to hire the people in the local country on local contracts not irish ones i.e. local labour laws not irish ones apply. Not sure if they still do this.

So it doesn't suit to hire irish people. Nothing to do with lazy people or snowflakes.

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote:

This is a good view of the Irish attitude of 2020, lots of excuses and loads of reason why they can’t do anything which is passed onto the youth of today

Best of luck with trying to convince a teenager to do this work, you d be told to go fcuk yourself, we ve moved on from hard physical labour, very few want to do this, including myself, if you treatened a teenager with throwing them out of the house, you really would be told, go fcuk yourself, as they're too busy farting around on their phones, just like us adults. Get over it lads, we ve really moved on, life's too short

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In reality we need more and more immigrants because the Irish are unwilling to work anymore

Great idea,flood country with seasonal workers to undermine lowest paid sectors...

Then you can spend other 9 months of year complaining about dole being paid out to em,as they've the stamps built up and nothing here for em to do

If farmers are willing to pay enough,they will get the workers......as for irish people unwilling to do it,tell that to the hundreds of thousands of irish,who passed through the fruit farms in oz this last decade

Bass Reeves

First on the use of transition year students most are below 18 years of age. Unless numbers could be found locally it unlikely any employer would take the risk associated with them living on site.

Like everything to do with the fresh food going into supermarkets margins are quite tight. There fore it is minimum wage work. By using migrant workers it is possible to defray part of the wages as accomodation costs. Accommodation may be quite basic. With these workers as well they would be willing to work longer hours when crops are producing at there max. A lot may be paid piece rate dependents on picking ability.

When shoppers are willing to pay another euro/punnet of strawberries or other berries it may change.......or retailers will source product elsewhere

No-one's mentioned the 2K travel ban?


Ok, so...

You have a choice of staff

80 4th year (and above) students, that have to be mtrained up. you have to accommodate them, feed them, but also adhere to min wage and the working time directive, and not to mention you'd better have a full child protection policy along with trained point of contacts for the under 18's.

Or

80 lads from Bulgaria that know what they're doing, that you pay and provide accommodation and food for.


Hmmmmm... I wonder

quokula

So people who lost their jobs due to infection risk should start an entirely different job with the same infection risk instead, only this time it doesn’t take advantage of their skills / training / experience, and pays less?

silverharp

With all the gyms closed are there not people that want to be paid to move stuff from A to B instead of paying people to shout at them to move stuff from A to B? The farmers should say they are Agricultural CrossFit Gyms. Dem gainz!!!!

Pa ElGrande

Wanderer78 wrote: »

We re not in a depression, money creation is relatively easy, unfortunately many businesses are gonna fail

Depression is a lagging indicator, as are Covid deaths. We need to know if the recovery rate is improving (i.e. effective treatments).

Money is no good when the food is rotting in the fields and many businesses operate on slim margins, they need the cash flow to fund the next seasons operations or there is less production and higher consumer prices.

HalloweenJack

Deleted User wrote: »

No-one's mentioned the 2K travel ban?


Ok, so...

You have a choice of staff

80 4th year (and above) students, that have to be mtrained up. you have to accommodate them, feed them, but also adhere to min wage and the working time directive, and not to mention you'd better have a full child protection policy along with trained point of contacts for the under 18's.

Or

80 lads from Bulgaria that know what they're doing, that you pay and provide accommodation and food for.


Hmmmmm... I wonder

And this approach, when taken to extremes, is why the Western world has become so dependent on China. Go for the cheapest option and then you're completely exposed when the **** hits the fan.

machiavellianme

Deleted User wrote: »

No-one's mentioned the 2K travel ban?


Ok, so...

You have a choice of staff

80 4th year (and above) students, that have to be mtrained up. you have to accommodate them, feed them, but also adhere to min wage and the working time directive, and not to mention you'd better have a full child protection policy along with trained point of contacts for the under 18's.

Or

80 lads from Bulgaria that know what they're doing, that you pay and provide accommodation and food for.


Hmmmmm... I wonder

Have you ever picked fruit? I spent 5 years in secondary school working from late May till late July picking strawberries and raspberries for punnets and jam. It wasn't exactly rocket science. Here's a bucket, put the jam fruit in it and you get 1.20 for every full bucket or 8p for every punnet. None of what you mentioned applied. I'm not sure what training would've applied that common sense didn't already cover. Use the best fruit in punnets, the rest can jam.

paw patrol

machiavellianme wrote: »

Have you ever picked fruit? I spent 5 years in secondary school working from late May till late July picking strawberries and raspberries for punnets and jam. It wasn't exactly rocket science. Here's a bucket, put the jam fruit in it and you get 1.20 for every full bucket or 8p for every punnet. None of what you mentioned applied. I'm not sure what training would've applied that common sense didn't already cover. Use the best fruit in punnets, the rest can jam.

when was this? and who was it for?

plenty of health and safety now on the commercial operations. no teenage kids hired.

Please note , I said commercial operations not the local Fianna Gael stalwart with a few acres.

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Best of luck with trying to convince a teenager to do this work, you d be told to go fcuk yourself, we ve moved on from hard physical labour, very few want to do this, including myself, if you treatened a teenager with throwing them out of the house, you really would be told, go fcuk yourself, as they're too busy farting around on their phones, just like us adults. Get over it lads, we ve really moved on, life's too short

Funny, I know teenagers currently working on farms all over the country. One guy who was in agri college and was on work experience for the course, this was closed down due to virus so joined up with Farm Relief and now is back in the college working for them looking after their own farm......so the student has become the mast(so to speak :-) )


Yes he farts around on a phone as well but so does every adult.


If you constantly tell children they cant or wont be able to do anything, guess what, they wont do anything.

lawred2

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

I grow 12% of the food I consume every year. There will be plenty for me to harvest over the Summer. (assuming we are not due for biblical plagues this year as the locusts are already out in parts of the world :P )

Hmmm

How did you measure 12%?

Wibbs

HalloweenJack wrote: »

And this approach, when taken to extremes, is why the Western world has become so dependent on China. Go for the cheapest option and then you're completely exposed when the **** hits the fan.

Bingo. Too many office workers growing fat arses, too few people making things and doing jobs like this. When it's seen as the better option to fly in over a thousand people to pick bloody fruit. Jesus.

Never mind temporarily importing a load of people without quarantine whose health status you don't know in the middle of a pandemic. You couldn't make this level of idiocy up.

HalloweenJack

HalloweenJack wrote: »

And this approach, when taken to extremes, is why the Western world has become so dependent on China. Go for the cheapest option and then you're completely exposed when the **** hits the fan.

The sooner people realise that all EU citizens are equal in the workforce, the better. You were the one who brought China into this.

dubrov

Loads of ideas here for other people to do work

Wibbs

dubrov wrote: »

Loads of ideas here for other people to do work

My fruit picking days are kinda behind me, but I've done it. It's not rocket surgery FFS.

Shefwedfan

dubrov wrote: »

Loads of ideas here for other people to do work

I grew up picking fruit, or picking stones, so do whatever I could to make a few quid!!

hawkwing

Some nonsense written about saying the farmers should pay more...I picked fruit in England years ago,as someone else said you get x amount for picking a container--say 1€ for something that sells for 3€,and you might pick say 5 in an hour (made up figures)-so you get 5€ an hour.Do people think the picker should be earning €15 an hour (which the work deserves) and the farmer etc are then growing them for fun and to lose money??
We were complaining in England about the low wage and were told until the customer pays much more for the product you can never pay the pickers very much which makes sense. The only way they can operate here is by using the cheapest labour they can find which is what was happening in the UK 30yrs ago and also in Holland in the Tulip factories.
The same when you buy a chicken for €3 and complain it tastes like sh1te and why are the chicken factory workers paid poorly--because a chicken should really cost about €20 and not 10minutes of your weekly wage.
The consumer will not pay enough and so the workers down the line will not be paid properly either.

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Funny, I know teenagers currently working on farms all over the country. One guy who was in agri college and was on work experience for the course, this was closed down due to virus so joined up with Farm Relief and now is back in the college working for them looking after their own farm......so the student has become the mast(so to speak :-) )


Yes he farts around on a phone as well but so does every adult.


If you constantly tell children they cant or wont be able to do anything, guess what, they wont do anything.

i can guarantee you, the majority of teenagers are not working in the fields, and if you asked them to, they d tell you to go fcuk yourself. seriously, rock up to most teenagers, and ask them would they d be interested in doing farm work! this has little or nothing to do about their abilities, they simply have no interest, as would most adults. we have moved on from hard physical labour, we have introduced mechanisation into that world. for those that are interested in doing this work, or have to, we should just make sure they re paid reasonable well, and have good working conditions.

LeinsterDub

gozunda wrote: »

Looks like our overlords in Europe have beaten us on choosing to do their own thing as per usual. Germany relaxing its closed borders to bring in 1000s of migrant workers so they can have their harvests of 'white asparagus....

https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-04-12/Thousands-of-Romanian-farm-workers-head-to-Germany-despite-COVID-19-PBNWgayF4k/index.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-lifts-ban-on-foreign-workers-to-salvage-harvest-1.4226277

As a kid and teenager- I picked strawberries, stones from potato fields and apples. Back breaking and underpaid at best

I somehow doubt that many of our current generation of teenagers would appreciate similar type work.

A bigger problem is that going forward Europe and much of the rest of the world faces the very real potential of food shortages with vegetable and fruit crops going unharvested without workers

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/13/france-has-avoided-a-covid-19-food-shortage-but-for-how-long

Germany are entitled to do what it wants with its borders as are we, what's the issue ?
Why would they appreciate it when you clearly didn't? Would you go to work doing back breaking labour for less than you'd get working the till in a shop?

HalloweenJack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The sooner people realise that all EU citizens are equal in the workforce, the better. You were the one who brought China into this.

I mention China as an extreme of where this approach can lead.

You want cheap products, the production process has to be cheap. Bring in people from poorer countries who are going to work for less and do nothing else while here before taking that money back home where it goes further than it would here. Obviously, its cheaper than hiring locals who have higher living expenses. It makes sense from a business point of view. I'm not arguingagainst that.

This is a shared problem. People want cheap products so the process needs to be cheaper. I understand that. I merely pointed out that relying on 'outsourcing' becomes problematic when the whole world is struggling and logistically your business model is impacted. Businesses should adapt their model to survive, not just stomp their feet and put their hands out like a spoilt child.

Its quite cheeky to ask people to 'dig deep', i.e. pay more, when we are all being affected by this. Personally, I have no sympathy for them if that's the case. This goes from football clubs laying off non-playing staff, to bailing out airlines to the IFA.

There are plenty of unemployed people out there - give them the jobs, even if you have to pay more, and I will pay more. It is only seasonal work, its not as if its a massive commitment on the businesses part.

Nesta2018

That's appalling. We have become addicted to cheap imported labour and easy welfare - people under 30 really don't grasp the fact that Irish people used to do every job imaginable before the late 90s, and it was fine. There's no reason on earth why they can't find people to pick fruit. It isn't cheaper in the long run to import people who will have to be housed, their kids educated, and who after a few short years will be entitled to the same welfare entitlements and full pension as Irish-born people. It's sheer gombeenism.

Granadino

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i can guarantee you, the majority of teenagers are not working in the fields, and if you asked them to, they d tell you to go fcuk yourself. seriously, rock up to most teenagers, and ask them would they d be interested in doing farm work! this has little or nothing to do about their abilities, they simply have no interest, as would most adults. we have moved on from hard physical labour, we have introduced mechanisation into that world. for those that are interested in doing this work, or have to, we should just make sure they re paid reasonable well, and have good working conditions.

They have no problem doing it in Australia to extend their visas.

Wanderer78

Granadino wrote: »

They have no problem doing it in Australia to extend their visas.

of course, because theyre having a better craic over there, and theyre right to, lifes too short

Salary Negotiator

I read an article about UK farmers needing to fly in pickers as well and it seemed to be because the only way the farming was profitable was was if they supply accommodation/food and charged the workers for it which brought the wage bill down.

Locals would need to be paid at least the minimum wage which is too high for the farmers to pay without clawing some of it back on food/accommodation fees.

Sammy2012

I heard that piece on the news. Friends of the mine used to work there 20 years ago. Summer jobs. The pay was minimal but it was good fun they said. Now its 10e for a large punnet of strawberries from there. I doubt whoever picks it gets anywhere near that. Obviously operations are much different now than they were 20years ago but I'd fully agree that now alof of younger people dont want to do that type of work now. I used to be brought to pick stones in the bog! The worst job ever.