European leaders warn coronavirus breakup of union

Balf

Coronavirus, or the response to it at any rate, seems to undermine the principles at the core of the EU.

If you want to be resilient in the face of this kind of threat, you don't want easy travel across borders, and you want local supply. Which probably means we would be s poor country again. But if the EU stops being the EU, we wouldn't have an option.

The wheel is still spinning, but anyone have a view.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-europe-unity/2020/04/02/4c9ed8c0-743e-11ea-ad9b-254ec99993bc_story.html

April 3, 2020 at 11:55 a.m. GMT+1
BERLIN — The coronavirus pandemic, with its simultaneous health and economic crises, is deepening fault lines within Europe in a way some leaders fear could prove to be a final reckoning.

The cohesion of the European Union had been battered by Brexit, bruised by the political fallout from the 2015 migration surge and the 2008 financial crisis, and challenged by rising autocracy in the east that runs contrary to the professed ideals of the European project.

Now, if Europe’s leaders cannot chart a more united course, the project lies in what one of its architects described this week as “mortal danger.”

Rufeo

Yeah that will happen.

Muahahaha

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

Still waters

Muahahaha wrote: »

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

Ive read similar but it also begs the question what could Europe have done any different seeing as we were all facing into the same battle, Italy's biggest problem like Britain and America was delaying in lockdown and stopping flights from china into northern Italy. They will be banking on people being weary and fatigued from months of lockdown and restrictions

mulbot

Still waters wrote: »

Ive read similar but it also begs the question what could Europe have done any different seeing as we were all facing into the same battle, Italy's biggest problem like Britain and America was delaying in lockdown and stopping flights from china into northern Italy. They will be banking on people being weary and fatigued from months of lockdown and restrictions

Didn't Russia help them out?

fiveleavesleft

mulbot wrote: »

Didn't Russia help them out?

Russia & Cuba.

The footage of the Russian lorries racing to the North or the lovely sight of all those Cuban doctors arriving at the airport in their white coats was in stark contrast to the EU's reaction.

Kivaro

fiveleavesleft wrote: »

Russia & Cuba.

The footage of the Russian lorries racing to the North or the lovely sight of all those Cuban doctors arriving at the airport in their white coats was in stark contrast to the EU's reaction.

There was a lot of optics with that footage.
A shot across the bow of the EU.

LeinsterDub

fiveleavesleft wrote: »

Russia & Cuba.

The footage of the Russian lorries racing to the North or the lovely sight of all those Cuban doctors arriving at the airport in their white coats was in stark contrast to the EU's reaction.

You mean the EU reaction of billions of euro? Or purchasing equipment on a European scale or other European countries sending doctors or taking patients? Wasn't a lot of the Russian equipment faulty?

biko

When Greece economy crumbled 10 years ago EU did nothing.
When Turkey started shipping migrants to Greece's borders, again EU did nothing.

They award themselves ridiculous amounts of money to "rule" but they are of no importance.
If ever there was a real-life example of Hunger Games' "Capitol", it's the people in Brussels.


This crisis just shows that when in strife each country looks to itself, not to the "union".

Eric Cartman

Muahahaha wrote: »

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

And why do far right parties have such an interest in leaving the EU ?

weisses

Italian government is not pro EU ..they give the finger to Europe by always spending to much thereby undermining the EU .... And now that the **** his the fan in their own country they are whinging there is a lack of solidarity .... Fukcing bunch of hypocrites is what they are

_Kaiser_

weisses wrote: »

Italian government is not pro EU ..they give the finger to Europe by always spending to much thereby undermining the EU .... And now that the **** his the fan in their own country they are whinging there is a lack of solidarity .... Fukcing bunch of hypocrites is what they are

None of the nations are pro-EU. There IS no concept of their "EU identity" being first among any member State.

Even Germany only looks at the EU through the lens of national interests. And why wouldn't they? There is no EU culture, no unifying identity, no shared history (at least not one worth celebrating), and no shared vision when even the most critical of decisions are reduced to whose voice at the table carries more weight.

It's a flawed concept from the start. It needs to be unwound and reverted to its EEC state. It's once the political notions of a Superstate started to creep in that the wheels started to come off.

mulbot

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You mean the EU reaction of billions of euro? Or purchasing equipment on a European scale or other European countries sending doctors or taking patients? Wasn't a lot of the Russian equipment faulty?

Faulty? Where did you see that?

LeinsterDub

mulbot wrote: »

Faulty? Where did you see that?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/03/26/80-of-russias-coronavirus-aid-to-italy-useless-la-stampa-a69756

LeinsterDub

biko wrote: »

When Greece economy crumbled 10 years ago EU did nothing.
When Turkey started shipping migrants to Greece's borders, again EU did nothing.

They award themselves ridiculous amounts of money to "rule" but they are of no importance.
If ever there was a real-life example of Hunger Games' "Capitol", it's the people in Brussels.


This crisis just shows that when in strife each country looks to itself, not to the "union".

What exactly is it you wanted the EU to do for Greece?

Rodney Bathgate

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/d3bc25ea-652c-11ea-b3f3-fe4680ea68b5

When Italy asked for urgent medical supplies under a special European crisis mechanism no EU country responded. Fearful of its own shortages, Germany initially banned the export of medical masks and other protective gear. 3M, a producer, said the German restrictions had made it impossible to supply the Italian market.

An example of european solidarity?

Jimmy Garlic

The bureaucratic juggernaut that is the EU is waiting for countries to economically collapse before they offer the"solution", that's why it is sitting on its hands.

mulbot

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/03/26/80-of-russias-coronavirus-aid-to-italy-useless-la-stampa-a69756

Don't see anything about equipment being faulty in that article.

ArchXStanton

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The bureaucratic juggernaut that is the EU is waiting for countries to economically collapse before they offer the"solution", that's why it is sitting on its hands.

The EUs handling of different crisis doesn't exactly instill confidence in it... They should go back to regulating shower heads and the likes

Rodney Bathgate

ArchXStanton wrote: »

The EUs handling of different crisis doesn't exactly instill confidence in it... They should go back to regulating shower heads and the likes

Indeed, I saw a banana yesterday that wasn’t up to standard, they need to re-focus on the important things like bananas.

PyreOfHellfire

I had to check my browser, thought I was on the Daily Mail's website. Keep crying lads, EU isn't breaking up no matter how much you have a hard on for it to.

Rodney Bathgate

PyreOfHellfire wrote: »

I had to check my browser, thought I was on the Daily Mail's website. Keep crying lads, EU isn't breaking up no matter how much you have a hard on for it to.

Are you one of the next generation Eurobots?

Fiery mutant

mulbot wrote: »

Don't see anything about equipment being faulty in that article.

Well, useless is pretty much the same thing. If something is faulty, it’s useless then isn’t it. And if it wasn’t ‘faulty’, but was still useless, then why the phuck send it?

PyreOfHellfire

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Are you one of the next generation Eurobots?

Oh my god Rodney you wound me with your quippy retort. 404 response not found. :rolleyes:

sydthebeat

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Indeed, I saw a banana yesterday that wasn’t up to standard, they need to re-focus on the important things like bananas.

The ignorance is strong with this one

Rodney Bathgate

PyreOfHellfire wrote: »

Oh my god Rodney you wound me with your quippy retort. 404 response not found. :rolleyes:

Yeah, keep spouting sh1te about SF / IRA, Ursula.

Rodney Bathgate

sydthebeat wrote: »

The ignorance is strong with this one

I see your bot buddy got a laugh out of that one. Well played.

PyreOfHellfire

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Yeah, keep spouting sh1te about SF / IRA.

The only one spouting sh*t is you buddy. Referencing a debunked lie that was proven to be a lie over 13 years ago. Keep going though, you're providing some much needed entertainment. Next you're gonna tell me the EU is building a single army made from the bones of dead Nazi's, or whatever backwards nonsense the Telegraph/Daily Mail tells you to believe.

Rodney Bathgate

PyreOfHellfire wrote: »

The only one spouting sh*t is you buddy. Referencing a debunked lie that was proven to be a lie over 13 years ago. Keep going though, you're providing some much needed entertainment. Next you're gonna tell me the EU is building a single army made from the bones of dead Nazi's, or whatever backwards nonsense the Telegraph/Daily Mail tells you to believe.

Did you not post the tripe below in another thread:

Sorry comrade I have veered off course from the correct group think. I shall send myself to the gulag at once. Erin Go Brath, Chucky our law and all that noble nonsense.

Time for a reboot, you are clearly malfunctioning.

PyreOfHellfire

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Did you not post the tripe below in another thread:



Time for a reboot, you are clearly malfunctioning.

Yes, Chucky our law comrade. Isn't that your shinners greeting? Or do I have to sing a wolfe tones song to pass your captcha test?

Rodney Bathgate

PyreOfHellfire wrote: »

Yes, Chucky our law comrade. Isn't that your shinners greeting? Or do I have to sing a wolfe tones song to pass your captcha test?

Keep trying, you might convert someone yet.

PyreOfHellfire

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Keep trying, you might convert someone yet.

No need to convert anyone. How many seats did the Anti EU parties get in the last GE? Oh yeah, none. In fact I'm being to hard on Sinn Fein, they're not dumb enough to come out and campaign on leaving the EU or else they would go the way of the Progressive Democrats and never be heard from again. In fact the total number of votes for Anti EU parties in the last GE was 10,000. All you lot need to do is quadruptle that number and you'll have the same amount of votes as Aontu and you'll get a single seat. I'm pretty sure the dominos will fall from there. Good luck with that. Keep preaching about bendy banana regulations that don't exist and how Russia and Cuba are so great and I'm sure everyone will have the same revelation you've had about the EU. After all, communist dictatorships are clearly more democratic than the EU.

Rodney Bathgate

PyreOfHellfire wrote: »

No need to convert anyone. How many seats did the Anti EU parties get in the last GE? Oh yeah, none. In fact I'm being to hard on Sinn Fein, they're not dumb enough to come out and campaign on leaving the EU or else they would go the way of the Progressive Democrats and never be heard from again. In fact the total number of votes for Anti EU parties in the last GE was 10,000. All you lot need to do is quadruptle that number and you'll have the same amount of votes as Aontu and you'll get a single seat. I'm pretty sure the dominos will fall from there. Good luck with that. Keep preaching about bendy banana regulations that don't exist and how Russia and Cuba are so great and I'm sure everyone will have the same revelation you've had about the EU. After all, communist dictatorships are clearly more democratic than the EU.

For starters, can you quote the posts where I say Russia and Cuba are great, pal?

Danno

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You mean the EU reaction of billions of euro? Or purchasing equipment on a European scale or other European countries sending doctors or taking patients? Wasn't a lot of the Russian equipment faulty?

Where will those "billions of Euro" end up?

On the loan books of governments and large corporations who will get a sweet 0.24% interest rate, meanwhile your local SME will be charged 4% to 7% for any kind of loan. This will result in higher prices going forward on local produce and services. The Governments will have to pay back the cash to the EU meaning higher taxes on the plebs.

The EU must ensure, no matter what, that the bankers get their twist out of distributing the money and taking their cut. The EU has no interest in the ordinary citizen.

fash

biko wrote: »

When Greece economy crumbled 10 years ago EU did nothing.
When Turkey started shipping migrants to Greece's borders, again EU did nothing.

They award themselves ridiculous amounts of money to "rule" but they are of no importance.
If ever there was a real-life example of Hunger Games' "Capitol", it's the people in Brussels.


This crisis just shows that when in strife each country looks to itself, not to the "union".

Actually there was massive financial assistance by the EU to Greece - look it up. And that was despite the fact that the system was specifically set up so that each party would be fully responsible for itself- so no oversight when things were good and no assistance when things were bad. The Greek government (and people who voted for them) liked this as it allowed them to go crazy with the credit card.

Both public health and migration / refugee policy are expressly excluded from EU competence- to prevent the EU from doing anything. Are you suggesting that the EU should be given this power? If you are suggesting that it is not given any power, why are you blaming it? It is the equivalent of grabbing someone's hands then hitting them in the face with their hands while laughing "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself"

RobertKK

Health is an area that is in the power of individual countries in the EU.

It is amazing how people who are seemingly against the EU use a crisis to complain about there being not enough Europe (EU), but at the same time flat out refuse to give the EU the power it would need to be more proactive.

The EU only ever had limited powers in this, the power always lay with individual governments, but it is convenient for governments to pass off the blame for their own failings on the EU. Give the EU more power rather than pretending it had the power to be anymore effective if that is what you want.
But I guess the people blaming the EU also do not want this.

ArchXStanton

RobertKK wrote: »

Health is an area that is in the power of individual countries in the EU.

It is amazing how people who are seemingly against the EU use a crisis to complain about there being not enough Europe (EU), but at the same time flat out refuse to give the EU the power it would need to be more proactive.

The EU only ever had limited powers in this, the power always lay with individual governments, but it is convenient for governments to pass off the blame for their own failings on the EU. Give the EU more power rather than pretending it had the power to be anymore effective if that is what you want.
But I guess the people blaming the EU also do not want this.

Pretty sure the EUs drive for austerity had disastrous effects for a number of countries healthcare systems... Mad for the oul power so they are.... more more they scream, its too bloated and convoluted to ever be effective.

sdanseo

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that global connectivity caused this thing to spread like wildfire.

Any advances over the 1918 pandemic that information technology gave us were eradicated by the 25,000 flights a day bringing infected people to other continents in hours.

None of that however is a reason global connectivity shouldn't be a thing. It's the world we live in. We need a cure for the virus, not a cure for globalism.

The US has so far spent $53bn on this crisis but will spend $748bn on defence this year. It spent similar last year, and the year before. (of money it doesn't have).

Cut the cord of military industrial complex and funnel that money into medical research. If through what in the scheme of things are vanity projects we can build aircraft carriers, go to the moon, figure out that there's a planet 40 light years away with an atmosphere the same temperature of each and smash neutrons together at almost the speed of light; then surely we can cure a bloody virus if we wanted to. Not to mention all manner of other diseases.

lalababa

The EU is the most successful peace and market alliance in the history of the world...period. No international wars, rise in living standards across the board. Look how much trouble the Brits are in. They have no trade deals yet.
The EU is absolutely seethingly hated through jealousy by the rest of the world. And nobody in their right mind would invade an EU country or start a trade war.
Look at the countries constantly trying to get in. Turkey wasn't let in and is throwing the toys out of the pram!
The main culprits trying to destabilise the EU are Russia/US/China/ etc
So that article is bollocks.

Irish Praetorian

RobertKK wrote: »

Health is an area that is in the power of individual countries in the EU.

It is amazing how people who are seemingly against the EU use a crisis to complain about there being not enough Europe (EU), but at the same time flat out refuse to give the EU the power it would need to be more proactive.

The EU only ever had limited powers in this, the power always lay with individual governments, but it is convenient for governments to pass off the blame for their own failings on the EU. Give the EU more power rather than pretending it had the power to be anymore effective if that is what you want.
But I guess the people blaming the EU also do not want this.

This is the usual framekwork for complaints against the EU;

If the EU does nothing, then it's a toothless entity not worth being part of.
If the EU does something, its an all invasive oppressive regime that we need to escape.

The EU has a number of exclusive competencies, healthcare is not one of them - it is at best a shared competency when it comes to a common concern (which to be fair COVID 19 would be) but primarily healthcare is a national issue.

Now, as a shared competency with national governments, the EU has undertaken initatives in the following areas;

-Collective repatriation of EU citizens.
-Procurement and stockpiling of medical equipment.
-Creation of joint advisory panels.
-Temporary waiver of duty on medical imports.
-Supporting continued operation of the food supply chain.
-And more recently, economic measures to ameliorate the attendant shock from this outbreak.

Now one can make the argument that such measures either go to far or don't go far enough, but if we're actually going to debate these points, it might be useful if we go a little bit deeper than 'well the EU did nothing but Russia sent a planeload of stuff so the EU will be gone next year'.

2u2me

biko wrote: »

When Greece economy crumbled 10 years ago EU did nothing.
When Turkey started shipping migrants to Greece's borders, again EU did nothing.

They award themselves ridiculous amounts of money to "rule" but they are of no importance.
If ever there was a real-life example of Hunger Games' "Capitol", it's the people in Brussels.

This crisis just shows that when in strife each country looks to itself, not to the "union".

Heather Conley, director of CSIS's* Europe Program, breaks down the seven tests the pandemic poses for Europe and how it's faired thus far.
*Centre for strategic and international studies think tank

1. Humanitarian aid lacking. Italy had to get humanitarian aid from Russia and China.
2. Coordination of border closes and lockdown. We couldn't coordinate properly.
3. ECB proving financial support to stricken countries particularly Italy, Spain. Euro bonds will be a test of how we fare here. Northern European countries are objecting to them(Germany/Netherlands).
4. Democracy. Hungary and Hungarian government democracy is failing. European Union response lacking.
5. Leadership. Strains of politics showing.
6. Geopolitics. China and Russia information warfare.
7. Future. Can they decide on new and ambitious future? Will money be used for recovery or new green deal? Will we agree to debt mutualization or will this strain the EU to a breaking point.

ArchXStanton

2u2me wrote: »

Heather Conley, director of CSIS's* Europe Program, breaks down the seven tests the pandemic poses for Europe and how it's faired thus far.
*Centre for strategic and international studies think tank

1. Humanitarian aid lacking. Italy had to get humanitarian aid from Russia and China.
2. Coordination of border closes and lockdown. We couldn't coordinate properly.
3. ECB proving financial support to stricken countries particularly Italy, Spain. Euro bonds will be a test of how we fare here. Northern European countries are objecting to them(Germany/Netherlands).
4. Democracy. Hungary and Hungarian government democracy is failing. European Union response lacking.
5. Leadership. Strains of politics showing.
6. Geopolitics. China and Russia information warfare.
7. Future. Can they decide on new and ambitious future? Will money be used for recovery or new green deal? Will we agree to debt mutualization or will this strain the EU to a breaking point.

"4. Democracy. Hungary and Hungarian government democracy is failing. European Union response lacking."


Be a bit rich now of the EU to be lecturing anybody about democracy...

fash

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/d3bc25ea-652c-11ea-b3f3-fe4680ea68b5



An example of european solidarity?

Isn't that an example of what happens without solidarity? Are you for or against solidarity? For or against having a coordinated European response? Let me guess: "I don't care, I just hate the EU"

fash

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Pretty sure the EUs drive for austerity had disastrous effects for a number of countries healthcare systems... Mad for the oul power so they are.... more more they scream, its too bloated and convoluted to ever be effective.

As disastrous as the US or the UK? Let's not forget that the euro was set up specifically in a way that there would be effectively zero European oversight or responsibility - so that member states (and the electorates that voted for them) would get the benefit of low interest rates, low inflation and the right to spend as they please but be responsible for ensuring they did so responsibly.
Sounds like it's "heads profligate country wins, tails EU losses"
Furthermore, are you saying that that responsibility should be taken away from member states?

Fred Cryton

Muahahaha wrote: »

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

Well they can f*** off out of the EU then, it's their choice. Clearly, as we've seen with the UK, any country can leave.



Sick of these Mediterranean countries with their faux tears claiming the "future of Europe at stake" or some such nonsense. What they really mean is yet again they need a handout and can't manage their own affairs. Perhaps they should pay their public sector less and offer less generous pension arrangements as they clearly can't afford it.

fash

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Be a bit rich now of the EU to be lecturing anybody about democracy...

Really? What do you consider to be more democratic that the EU? The UK with its faux democracy? The US with this:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-sidelines-watchdog-tapped-virus-rescue-oversight-70023103 ?

fash

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Well they can f*** off out of the EU then, it's their choice. Clearly, as we've seen with the UK, any country can leave.



Sick of these Mediterranean countries with their faux tears claiming the "future of Europe at stake" or some such nonsense. What they really mean is yet again they need a handout and can't manage their own affairs. Perhaps they should pay their public sector less and offer less generous pension arrangements as they clearly can't afford it.

I honestly think that they should consider setting up a second Euro - let Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Finland "step off the boat"- along with anyone who wants to go with them.
Would Ireland stay with the "let's inflate our debts away but damage future business with massive future interest rates as well as reduce the income of pensioners and those on fixed incomes to nothing" - or want to stay with the hard currency people?

ArchXStanton

fash wrote: »

Really? What do you consider to be more democratic that the EU? The UK with its faux democracy? The US with this:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-sidelines-watchdog-tapped-virus-rescue-oversight-70023103 ?

Yes really, the EU has its own dubious past when it comes to respecting referendums "there can be no democratic choice against the treaties" - Juncker

But you go right on ahead and wave your little blue flag, I certainly won't be

Rodney Bathgate

fash wrote: »

Isn't that an example of what happens without solidarity? Are you for or against solidarity? For or against having a coordinated European response? Let me guess: "I don't care, I just hate the EU"

It shows that the EU nations aren’t all in this together, that nations will look after own interests first.

What are you suggesting - that the EU should force solidarity?

Fred Cryton

fash wrote: »

I honestly think that they should consider setting up a second Euro - let Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Finland "step off the boat"- along with anyone who wants to go with them.
Would Ireland stay with the "let's inflate our debts away but damage future business with massive future interest rates as well as reduce the income of pensioners and those on fixed incomes to nothing" - or want to stay with the hard currency people?

Depends on choices Irish people make at ballot box. We should be with the hard currency people as we are a rich country.


But if SF get into power we will likely go down the Mediterranean lefty populist route, chase away investment and run up enormous debts etc. Would be unable to cut it then in the big leagues.

Rodney Bathgate

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Yes really, the EU has its own dubious past when it comes to respecting referendums "there can be no democratic choice against the treaties" - Juncker

But you go right on ahead and wave your little blue flag, I certainly won't be

Whatever happened that old dipso?