Falling fuel prices and car tax

saabsaab

As fuel costs are falling and likely to fall for the foreseeable future is it now a good time to transfer the car tax systems to the cost of fuel and do away with the systems as they are?



Fairer, simpler, greener and harder to avoid.
Any thoughts? Please stay to the topic as the other thread was derailed by irrelevant issues.

saabsaab

Perhaps even transfer a basic level of state insurance to the fuel too? Useful for the younger driver.

Miscreant

saabsaab wrote: »

As fuel costs are falling and likely to fall for the foreseeable future is it now a good time to transfer the car tax systems to the cost of fuel and do away with the systems as they are?



Fairer, simpler, greener and harder to avoid.
Any thoughts? Please stay to the topic as the other thread was derailed by irrelevant issues.

Do we really need yet another thread on this topic? People who drive more are already paying more in tax as they use more fuel. Motor tax is an ownership tax and everyone has to pay it regardless of whether they drive their car or not. Garda ANPR will flag a vehicle without tax so it then becomes a policing issue anyway. Your car can be taken from you for non-payment so that is enough of an incentive to keep up to date on the tax.
What happens when someone paying €200 a year in motor tax all of a sudden is paying €400 more per year for fuel because motor tax has been abolished and added to the fuel instead?
If anything, after all this Covid stuff dies down, the Government will probably add more tax to fuel anyway and leave motor tax in place. The country is going to need the income to pay for the health services and the borrowing that is happening right now to keep the place afloat.

teediddlyeye

^ this

There's enough tax on fuel as it is. Like I've said before unless you're somehow managing to get fuel for free, you're already paying more the more you use.

Also it's ridiculous to just assume that less fuel used automatically means less pollution, you could buy a 30 year old diesel car and it wouldn't be a million miles off its current counterpart in mpg. Which one do you think would be cleaner?

You need an incentive when buying a new car to chose something greener. Taxing just fuel wouldn't do that and you'd probably have manufacturers leaning out engines to get better mpg at the expense of toxic emissions i.e dieselgate

saabsaab

It cannot be called an ownership tax as you can have a car off the road and not pay anything. of course that may change.
It's true you pay more the more you drive but this would incentivize more fuel efficiency or less travel, working form home etc.
The Government may indeed raise all sorts of tax including fuel excise after the crisis but the abolition of car tax would make it easier.

teediddlyeye

I think ask the opinion of someone with a 1991 ls400 if they think motor tax should be scrapped in favour of extra fuel duty lol

teediddlyeye

Actually now that I think about it, the c02 tax system rewards high mpg cars. As c02 coresponds to consumption.

So if you buy an efficient car now you're really being rewarded twice with lower tax and less trips to the pump. But you'd like to see one side of that removed altogether and tax increased on the other. Yeah sounds green alright!

saabsaab

It is more about use than the efficiency though. For example if you use a Rolls 10 miles a week to the shops in Dublin (burns one gallon approx) you use less than a supermini doing 120 miles a week (about 3 gallons).

saabsaab

After the fuel crisis in the 1970's and a jump in petrol prices there was a major move towards more fuel efficient cars. Increasing fuel cost certainly does promote more efficient and alternative transport options.

R.O.R

Not this sh1te from you again?

Wasn't the last thread about getting rid of motor tax and adding it to fuel enough?

Cee-Jay-Cee

saabsaab wrote: »

As fuel costs are falling and likely to fall for the foreseeable future is it now a good time to transfer the car tax systems to the cost of fuel and do away with the systems as they are?
.

Fuel prices are starting to rise so your argument is null and void.

saabsaab

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Fuel prices are starting to rise so your argument is null and void.

No they are not! Check recent prices.

saabsaab

R.O.R wrote: »

Not this sh1te from you again?

Wasn't the last thread about getting rid of motor tax and adding it to fuel enough?

You are free to ignore it.

pablo128

How many cents per litre are you proposing to add?

And are you still proposing a flat fee on top of this rise in fuel prices?

And would you think people with diesel cars would be tempted to use green diesel more?

R.O.R

saabsaab wrote: »

You are free to ignore it.

And you are free to stop posting the same crap again and again.

Didn't really go your way last time did it? Think it will go better this time?

So, what do you drive? That's the essential question.

saabsaab

pablo128 wrote: »

How many cents per litre are you proposing to add?

And are you still proposing a flat fee on top of this rise in fuel prices?

And would you think people with diesel cars would be tempted to use green diesel more?

1) Probably 20 cent per litre on fossil or fossil derived fuel but depends.

2) Also would depend but a small registration yearly fee would probably apply.
3) The EU is proposing to do away with separate rates for diesel so may not be an issue soon.


Fuel prices can vary quite a lot anyway so costs can rise without any such measure.

Bass Reeves

We are heading into a recession so it's unlikely as government will increase taxes anyway. However if the government changes cat tax to a fuel levy guess what ten years later after another recession government reintroduce car tax as all card are electric

saabsaab

Bass Reeves wrote: »

We are heading into a recession so it's unlikely as government will increase taxes anyway. However if the government changes cat tax to a fuel levy guess what ten years later after another recession government reintroduce car tax as all card are electric

Well we can't know what the future holds but what you say is possible.

pablo128

saabsaab wrote: »

1) Probably 20 cent per litre on fossil or fossil derived fuel but depends.

2) Also would depend but a small registration yearly fee would probably apply.
3) The EU is proposing to do away with separate rates for diesel so may not be an issue soon.


Fuel prices can vary quite a lot anyway so costs can rise without any such measure.

You haven't costed it then? I assumed you would have had figures worked out since you went to the trouble of making a poll. You mentioned in the last thread that you envisaged it being cost neutral, I assume for the average motorist.

And what about my.question re green diesel?

bazz26

Wash, rinse, repeat....

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058044429

saabsaab

R.O.R wrote: »

And you are free to stop posting the same crap again and again.

Didn't really go your way last time did it? Think it will go better this time?

So, what do you drive? That's the essential question.

I am but I choose not to don't tell me what to do. Actually it did go well the last time most were in favour of the change.


Again what I drive or not is irrelevant to the topic as in what is th ebest way to administer car tax/excise.


By the way is that you bazz26?

saabsaab

pablo128 wrote: »

You haven't costed it then? I assumed you would have had figures worked out since you went to the trouble of making a poll. You mentioned in the last thread that you envisaged it being cost neutral, I assume for the average motorist.

And what about my.question re green diesel?

I meant cost neutral to the government tax take. The average motorist wouldn't see a great overall increase and would have the benefit if being paid at the pump not in one large sum each year.
With all changes there would be winners and losers.


Would not be too difficult to make it cost neutral after the initial year it could be easily adjusted. Like I said 'green' diesel rates would be gone soon per EU.

saabsaab

bazz26 wrote: »

Wash, rinse, repeat....

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058044429

I thought you didn't want to communicate with me again?
Hope you lay off the name calling.

pablo128

saabsaab wrote: »

I meant cost neutral to the government tax take. The average motorist wouldn't see a great overall increase and would have the benefit if being paid at the pump not in one large sum each year.
With all changes there would be winners and losers.


Would not be too difficult to make it cost neutral after the initial year it could be easily adjusted. Like I said 'green' diesel rates would be gone soon per EU.

Have you a link for the eu getting rid of green diesel?

saabsaab

pablo128 wrote: »

Have you a link for the eu getting rid of green diesel?

I had it in the previous thread if you want to look there.

pogsick

Why are the poll results hidden???

pablo128

saabsaab wrote: »

I had it in the previous thread if you want to look there.

I'd rather you link it here for the benefit of myself and other posters, if you don't mind.

Pops_20

Don't knock the OP. The point of the post makes sense for some people.

I own two cars. I drive one of them day to day, and drive the other at the weekends. I pay €1,420 in motor tax p/a between the two cars, if I pay the full year in one go! I get 23 mpg average between the two cars.

I pay at least 7 times the motor tax rate than most other cars on the road, that are most likely doing twice the mileage I am doing. Why should I pay such a high rate of tax for my cars?

The more you drive, the more fuel you consume, the more you should pay. Simple as that.

saabsaab

pogsick wrote: »

Why are the poll results hidden???

Only hidden until the end, about two weeks off. I don't want the results to influence anybody.

pablo128

Pops_20 wrote: »

Don't knock the OP. The point of the post makes sense for some people.

I own two cars. I drive one of them day to day, and drive the other at the weekends. I pay €1,420 in motor tax p/a between the two cars, if I pay the full year in one go! I get 23 mpg average between the two cars.

I pay at least 7 times the motor tax rate than most other cars on the road, that are most likely doing twice the mileage I am doing. Why should I pay such a high rate of tax for my cars?

The more you drive, the more fuel you consume, the more you should pay. Simple as that.

2 cars here cost 980 a year to tax. An 05 and a 16. I'm nearly in the same boat as you. However it's currently the case that the more you drive, the more you pay. It's the poor bastards commuting from outside Dublin who will get hammered to death from such an increase in tax on fuel.

You and me and anyone else currently have the option of buying a low tax car. You would get smashed on the price of fuel and still have to pay a yearly fee under saabsaabs proposals.

saabsaab

'still have to pay a yearly fee under saabsaabs proposals'


A much reduced yearly registration on the road fee! Focus the cost on the polluter pays principle.

Guy:Incognito

Pops_20 wrote: »

Don't knock the OP. The point of the post makes sense for some people. .

It did the first couple of times the topic was done on the forum maybe. At this stage its just a copy and paste of previous threads.

saabsaab wrote: »

would have the benefit if being paid at the pump not in one large sum each year.

Theres already a facility to spread motor tax payments out.

Wildly Boaring

Oh I think it's a great plan OP

(Diesel card in wallet now worth another 300 a year)

saabsaab

pablo128 wrote: »

I'd rather you link it here for the benefit of myself and other posters, if you don't mind.

Fair enough,


'Directive 2003/96/EC on restructuring the Community framework for the taxation of energy products and electricity sets out the EU’s rules on taxes on electricity, all propellant fuels and most fuel oils. The aforementioned Directive provides that national governments may apply lower levels of excise duty in respect of commercial diesel fuel than in respect of diesel fuel for non-commercial use, where such fuel is used by carriers or for the carriage of passengers.
Some Member States have been following such practices for years. However, the EU’s climate policy and the commitments it has taken on under the Paris Accord, as well as the Commission’s ‘Europe on the Move’ package for safe, clean and connected mobility, dictate a completely different approach, including the abolition of subsidies for fossil fuels and EU rules that will cover, for the first time, the area of CO2 emissions from heavy-duty vehicles (trucks and buses).
CO2 emissions from heavy-duty vehicles account for about a quarter of road transport emissions, and achieving EU targets in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions will not be possible without the inclusion of heavy-duty vehicles.
In view of the above, when does the Commission intend to amend Directive 2003/96/EC, which permits the reimbursement of excise duties paid on diesel used for commercial purposes, in order to fulfil the obligations under the Paris Accord and to bring the aforementioned Directive into line with EU climate and energy policies?'


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-may-be-taxed-on-distance-driven-rather-than-paying-excise-on-fuel-1.3588114

saabsaab

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It did the first couple of times the topic was done on the forum maybe. At this stage its just a copy and paste of previous threads.

Then why bother with it you are free to go elsewhere.

Theres already a facility to spread motor tax payments out.

Yes, but not every fill up!

bazz26

saabsaab wrote: »

I thought you didn't want to communicate with me again?
Hope you lay off the name calling.

Lets get a few facts correct here. You PM'd me, I didn't like the tone of your PM so told you I didn't want to receive another PM from you.

And I stand by my statement, you are bit of a busybody who has too much spare time to be thinking of new ways to make many people's lives harder than they are already are.

pablo128

saabsaab wrote: »

Fair enough,


'Directive 2003/96/EC on restructuring the Community framework for the taxation of energy products and electricity sets out the EU’s rules on taxes on electricity, all propellant fuels and most fuel oils. The aforementioned Directive provides that national governments may apply lower levels of excise duty in respect of commercial diesel fuel than in respect of diesel fuel for non-commercial use, where such fuel is used by carriers or for the carriage of passengers.
Some Member States have been following such practices for years. However, the EU’s climate policy and the commitments it has taken on under the Paris Accord, as well as the Commission’s ‘Europe on the Move’ package for safe, clean and connected mobility, dictate a completely different approach, including the abolition of subsidies for fossil fuels and EU rules that will cover, for the first time, the area of CO2 emissions from heavy-duty vehicles (trucks and buses).
CO2 emissions from heavy-duty vehicles account for about a quarter of road transport emissions, and achieving EU targets in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions will not be possible without the inclusion of heavy-duty vehicles.
In view of the above, when does the Commission intend to amend Directive 2003/96/EC, which permits the reimbursement of excise duties paid on diesel used for commercial purposes, in order to fulfil the obligations under the Paris Accord and to bring the aforementioned Directive into line with EU climate and energy policies?'


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-may-be-taxed-on-distance-driven-rather-than-paying-excise-on-fuel-1.3588114

Green diesel is not for trucks and buses. It's for farm use, but works just the same in any diesel vehicle. It's use on the road is illegal, but more people will take a chance if there is an increased difference in price between it and unmarked diesel.

Wildly Boaring

pablo128 wrote: »

Green diesel is not for trucks and buses. It's for farm use, but works just the same in any diesel vehicle. It's use on the road is illegal, but more people will take a chance if there is an increased difference in price between it and unmarked diesel.

It's also a massive cost in construction ground works.
If green goes it'll be replaced by a rebate for Agri and construction.
If they'd bothered sorting this north and south they could have gotten rid of laundering years ago

Cee-Jay-Cee

saabsaab wrote: »

No they are not! Check recent prices.

Crude oil prices have been rising the last few days. That will lead to a rise at the pumps in the coming days/weeks. A deal to cut supply has also been reached between Russia and OPEC so further falls are unlikely and prices will slowly increase.

saabsaab

Some on this thread seem to be threatened at the very mention of this proposal. I don't think it will make people's lives harder but simpler.


I know green diesel is primarily for Ag use but it also would hardly be left alone if EU proposals go ahead.


As for being a busybody you can say that about anyone that posts or is an OP.

saabsaab

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Crude oil prices have been rising the last few days. That will lead to a rise at the pumps in the coming days/weeks. A deal to cut supply has also been reached between Russia and OPEC so further falls are unlikely and prices will slowly increase.

See this link..


https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Demand-Destruction-Will-Decimate-Oil-Prices.html


Anyway, with the fall off in demand for the foreseable I can't see it rising if there is little demand.

saabsaab

Link to topic..


https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-motor-tax-fuel-costs-857940-Apr2013/

Henry Ford III

I've no interest in what you drive O.P. but please answer this.

If motor tax was abolished and levied on fuel at say 20c per litre would you gain or lose?

Your answer will provide a much needed indication of your motivation and perspective.

saabsaab

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I've no interest in what you drive O.P. but please answer this.

If motor tax was abolished and levied on fuel at say 20c per litre would you gain or lose?

Your answer will provide a much needed indication of your motivation and perspective.

I don't think its relevant but I'd probably come out near even. If I was careful and made a few extra lifestyle changes I, like anyone else, could come out ahead, and be greener too.

saabsaab

What I would want is an overall better system and is not about any individual.

_Kaiser_

I've said it before, but I'll say it again...

- most of the current fuel pricing is ALREADY tax

- you can be sure motor tax would be replaced with some other charge soon enough

- this proposal might be fine for those who do minimum mileage (and could probably look at alternatives anyway) or enthusiasts who want to drive a barge or v8 at the weekends, but not so much anyone priced out away from their workplace and commutes, or anyone who lives rurally - or even just outside the city where public transport is limited or non-existent

- no one really gives a toss about Green policy in this country.
It's a virtue signalling outlet for students and the middle class during good economic times. Just as no one cares about Greta's crusading anymore.
We've far more important and tough decisions ahead of us when this virus is finally under control.

TL;DR? Nope.. It's a short sighted idea that is usually only advocated by a minority who it would least affect.

teediddlyeye

Pops_20 wrote: »

The more you drive, the more fuel you consume, the more you should pay. Simple as that.

Oh Jesus Christ, why do people keep saying this?

FUEL IS NOT FREE!!!!!

Someone doing many multiples the milage you're doing in a low tax car is probably still paying more than you overall between tax and fuel duty.

saabsaab

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I've said it before, but I'll say it again...

- most of the current fuel pricing is ALREADY tax
This would put the cost where it belongs on the useage
- you can be sure motor tax would be replaced with some other charge soon enough Hard to know but probably not

- this proposal might be fine for those who do minimum mileage (and could probably look at alternatives anyway) or enthusiasts who want to drive a barge or v8 at the weekends, but not so much anyone priced out away from their workplace and commutes, or anyone who lives rurally - or even just outside the city where public transport is limited or non-existent
Everyone can make adjustments and no cat lasts forever.

- no one really gives a toss about Green policy in this country. Not true


It's a virtue signalling outlet for students and the middle class during good economic times. Just as no one cares about Greta's crusading anymore.
We've far more important and tough decisions ahead of us when this virus is finally under control. Not relevant

TL;DR? Nope.. It's a short sighted idea that is usually only advocated by a minority who it would least affect.

Not a minority, probably suit most people and with a little adjustment many more.

The car tax systems we have here are derived from the British system of the early 20th century it is overdue a change. Anyone have other ideas?

_Kaiser_

saabsaab wrote: »

Not a minority, probably suit most people and with a little adjustment many more.

The car tax systems we have here are derived from the British system of the early 20th century it is overdue a change. Anyone have other ideas?

I've already given you a response to which your reply was pretty much "nah, it'll be fine!. People can just adjust"

If all you're looking for is validation of your argument I'm afraid I can't help you there.

teediddlyeye

saabsaab wrote: »

Not a minority, probably suit most people and with a little adjustment many more.

The car tax systems we have here are derived from the British system of the early 20th century it is overdue a change. Anyone have other ideas?

No it isn't. It's an Irish system from 2008.

Bass Reeves

teediddlyeye wrote: »

No it isn't. It's an Irish system from 2008.

And that was a massive cockup by the Greens