Our hospitals are actually very quiet.

beggars_bush

People with medical cards can just show up at A&E

Pubs being closed, no sport being played, schools closed lso have a lot to do with it
A lot less accidents

ILoveYourVibes

Balf wrote: »

Sez our Chief Medical Officer, before he asks people to crowd into A&E before anyone notices that our health services are generally well funded and the congestion line they usually peddle is bunkum.

https://www.thejournal.ie/tony-holohan-hospital-symptoms-5065098-Apr2020/

Its the arbitrary air about his comment that I wonder about. He turns up in a hospital, sees empty beds and leaps to the conclusion that there's a problem because it should be bedlam.

Sorry reality doesn't match your preconceptions, boss.

I would expect them to do. They have cancelled everything and asked people not to go.

Hospitals are breeding grounds for viruses. Everyone gets sick in hospital that infection this virus.

They know it would be a breeding ground for covid 19 much like nursing homes are.

AllForIt

I hate to admit this but I had to go to A&E a couple of weeks ago. I had an accident at home, I won't get into the details except to say my wound needed stitches. Of all times to be careless. Freaky accident though.

Anyway A&E ward was virtually empty. I was treated and back home in an hour. Unbelievable. Previous visits to A&E you'd be there for a few hours before even being seen. And this was at the weekend when you'd expect it to be extra busy.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Balf wrote: »

I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with current events, but hundreds of thousands of people have actually been deprived of their pay.

Now, that's cheeky.

People who are working are being deprived of pay?

Balf

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

the staff are all amazing but it was quiet I thought....

Absolutely, the staff in these places are typically fine folk. But, then, the bar staff in your local pub are generally also fine folk, even if their right to earn a living has just been interrupted by Government edict.

It's not especially about the people. Its about noticing what's actually happening.

Balf

DeVore wrote: »

So, the demand for hospitals has rocketted down.

It's actually your rhetoric that's rocketed down, as a few days ago you were claiming private hospitals were insanely busy with public patients, because of some guff your sister told you.

On the private hospital front, about two weeks ago we were loudly told they were joining the public system. One journo even mistook the rhetoric to mean they were doing this pro bono. Then, a couple of days ago, we learn that, actually, the private hospitals can't be used yet (although the HSE seems to be renting the space already) because their consultant doctors don't want to sign the contracts that would enable patients to actually receive treatment there.

Can I say, I wouldn't say the CMO is someone who is taking the pandemic too lightly. And he is the one who made the original comment - to the effect that too many people with non-Covid ailments are staying away, and that hospitals are a lot emptier than he would have expected.

And the papers today report no additional pressures on ICU space.

Oh, and, yes, the public discipline on this is impressive. Well done us.

Anita Blow

Balf wrote: »

It's actually your rhetoric that's rocketed down, as a few days ago you were claiming private hospitals were insanely busy with public patients, because of some guff your sister told you.

On the private hospital front, about two weeks ago we were loudly told they were joining the public system. One journo even mistook the rhetoric to mean they were doing this pro bono. Then, a couple of days ago, we learn that, actually, the private hospitals can't be used yet (although the HSE seems to be renting the space already) because their consultant doctors don't want to sign the contracts that would enable patients to actually receive treatment there.

Can I say, I wouldn't say the CMO is someone who is taking the pandemic too lightly. And he is the one who made the original comment - to the effect that too many people with non-Covid ailments are staying away, and that hospitals are a lot emptier than he would have expected.

And the papers today report no additional pressures on ICU space.

Oh, and, yes, the public discipline on this is impressive. Well done us.

I can only speak of the experience in my own hospital, but we've already had 100-200 of our surgeries take place in a partnering private hospital since this arrangement took effect. Almost all surgeries which are now taking place are occurring in a private hospital by our own surgeons.

saabsaab

The fear of legal action is at the root of much A&E overcrowding both the GPs and the staff in A&E are unwilling to take any chance that a seeming simple case could develop into something more serious.


There should be no legal basis whatsoever for an action for someone sent home in good faith.

rosser44

Jesus you'd have to be a totally pathetic piece of sh1t to come on boards and have a go at health care workers right now.....

US2

Limerick regional is empty. Not just a&e. Majority of nurses twiddling their thumbs. Some asked to take leave.

mariaalice

Balf wrote: »

Absolutely, the staff in these places are typically fine folk. But, then, the bar staff in your local pub are generally also fine folk, even if their right to earn a living has just been interrupted by Government edict.

It's not especially about the people. Its about noticing what's actually happening.

What exactly is the point you are trying to make? the fact that there are fewer people out and about has a major effect, fewer car accidents, fewer accidents in general, less work accidents, less public drunkness, fewer tourists, fewer sports events, fewer event with a large number of people present, all the everyday things that feed into hospitals each day.

Cancer, strokes, infections ect have not gone away however people are reluctant to go in to hospitals at the moment for a variety of reasons.

Are you really comparing bar staff to health care staff in their usefulness to society?.

mariaalice

Society, in Ireland, has been somewhat put to sleep because of COVID 19, you could not compare what happens normally to the situation now.

khalessi

misschoo wrote: »

. Every A&E department has been split into two - one for COVID query and the other for other emergencies. May you never have to see the COVID side of the hospital for yourself or a loved one and the cheek of you to question our pay.

Have a relative working in the Covid A&E terrified of catching it but goes to work. It is extremely busy and exhausting physically and mentally.

saabsaab

mariaalice wrote: »

Society has in Ireland has been somewhat put to sleep because of COVID 19, you could not compare what happens normally to the situation now.

Yes that is true but even before the shutdown A&E numbers were well down.

mariaalice

saabsaab wrote: »

Yes that is true but even before the shutdown A&E numbers were well down.

Just maybe the flu vaccine campaign was very successful, community care might be working and getting quicker and more streamlined, the new one-stop health centers might be having an impact, just maybe some of the activities of the HSE might be working.

jmayo

Balf wrote: »

So you're saying your sister's anecdote is more reliable than the CMO's anecdote, as he seems to be unaware of what she's saying as he was expecting to see more bed occupancy than he did.

As, you'll appreciate, the CMO didn't say "I was admitted to a public hospital, and noticed a lack of patients which shows how well our strategy of hiring private space is going."

Does your sister have any anecdotes about how much the HSE are paying for the use of that private hospital?

Yeah that would be the same CMO that had the stupefying brain fart where he had a go at nursing homes for banning visitors a while back.
He proclaimed they should relax restrictions so that people could have visitors to make them feel better.
And what has come to pass and who has been proven right ?

See how exposed nursing home have been and how many deaths they have had.
And if that grade A muppet had his way they would probably have had even more deaths.

Frankly that one outburst from that muppet ensured I viewed his pronouncements in the same light as Patrick Neary.

NovemberWren wrote: »

at Wr'frd reg.hosp. yesterday a Security guard outside the main door said no persons whatsoever are allowed in.

They are not even allowing visitors to the regular patients there. Those patients must be going barmy.

Jeeze go figure.
Who would have thought they might not want people wandering around and possible infecting compromised patients. :rolleyes:

At a guess I would also say you supported those fathers that wanted admittance to maternity unit in major acute hospital ?

Balf wrote: »

Absolutely, the staff in these places are typically fine folk. But, then, the bar staff in your local pub are generally also fine folk, even if their right to earn a living has just been interrupted by Government edict.

It's not especially about the people. Its about noticing what's actually happening.

Are you seriously claiming that pubs should have been left open ?

FFS is this place now full of muppets.

lillycakes2

I honestly don't know where some of the above comments are coming from? nurses twiddling their thumbs?being made take annual leave? I am a Nurse in Frontline and that is not the case. The Hospitals wards are very busy.

Balf

Anita Blow wrote: »

I can only speak of the experience in my own hospital, but we've already had 100-200 of our surgeries take place in a partnering private hospital since this arrangement took effect. Almost all surgeries which are now taking place are occurring in a private hospital by our own surgeons.

Interesting comment, and I do appreciate you are simply sharing your experience.

I know you may not want to say anything that might identify the hospital, but could you give any indication of how 100-200 cases over the past couple of weeks relates to the normal caseload? Would that compare to a hospital like Vincents or James, maybe handling about 200 to 400 inpatient cases in a single week, and another 1,000 to 2,000 day cases?

Balf

mariaalice wrote: »

Are you really comparing bar staff to health care staff in their usefulness to society?.

I was actually comparing them in their common need to earn an income. Are you categorising bar staff along with pond life?

mariaalice wrote: »

Just maybe the flu vaccine campaign was very successful, community care might be working and getting quicker and more streamlined, the new one-stop health centers might be having an impact, just maybe some of the activities of the HSE might be working.

You mean, all of a sudden, some time in February it all started coming right for them?

Anita Blow

Balf wrote: »

Interesting comment, and I do appreciate you are simply sharing your experience.

I know you may not want to say anything that might identify the hospital, but could you give any indication of how 100-200 cases over the past couple of weeks relates to the normal caseload? Would that compare to a hospital like Vincents or James, maybe handling about 200 to 400 inpatient cases in a single week, and another 1,000 to 2,000 day cases?

It would be fairly little compared to a regular week's caseload. My own speciality in a big Dublin hospital would do about 25-30 operations a week between day cases and major surgeries. At present in the Dublin hospitals, urgent/emergency cases are still being done in-house, semi-urgent cases are being done in private hospitals and then elective but time-sensitive cases are being done in smaller 'clean' hospitals within the same hospital network.

There has been a dramatic fall-off in cases since this all began, so it's not just that the private hospitals are being under-utilised. Things like trauma which make up a substantial portion of surgical procedures in a hospital just aren't happening because people are staying inside, elderly are cocooning so not out breaking hips etc.

There's also an element of hospitals still finding their footing on how best to use the private hospitals. Initially it was just to do urgent/cancer cases because we were anticipating a major surge and wanting to keep hospital beds in the private centres free, but now that the surge seems to have been avoided it looks more like out public hospitals can handle the covid/emergency cases and we could utilise private hospitals as 'clean' hospitals and try get some electives back up and running.

I think over the coming weeks you'll see better utilisation of private hospitals and potentially using the spare capacity/consultants to try clear waiting lists that have built up since this crisis began before the 3 months is up.

eleventh

https://www.thejournal.ie/tony-holohan-hospital-symptoms-5065098-Apr2020/

He said that during his stay, he was concerned by the number of empty beds that lay around him. He urged people who might have illnesses to contact their local GPs or emergency rooms

So the CMO - supposed to be in charge - has no idea all these beds are empty, until he happens to be in himself as a patient.

mariaalice

eleventh wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/tony-holohan-hospital-symptoms-5065098-Apr2020/So the CMO - supposed to be in charge - has no idea all these beds are empty, until he happens to be in himself as a patient.

Wild guess but I would say COVID 19 might be taking up a lot of his time at the moment.

LabDude

As a health care worker I am proud to be part of a team that is currently going above and beyond to stay ahead (where possible) of this pandemic. I am lucky that my job is not in direct clinical contact with patients and I have so much respect for my colleagues who knowingly face this ever present danger daily. There are many moving parts changing daily, some have listed exactly why our A&Es have reduced attendance and shorter wait times and these are (anecdotally) all correct.

The hospitals are not quiet but the are appropriately managing this crisis as best they can. I work in a large acute hospital and credit to management who have done everything possible to accommodate staff by building resilience into the rostering, facilitating parking, and removing day/surgical procedures to safe 'clean' facilities where possible to protect the patients.

For those having a go at any HCW or otherwise, it may be a good time to evaluate yourself. Stop trolling.

Balf

eleventh wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/tony-holohan-hospital-symptoms-5065098-Apr2020/So the CMO - supposed to be in charge - has no idea all these beds are empty, until he happens to be in himself as a patient.

Tbh, I had similar thoughts when I created the thread. But, on reflection, he may have simply been looking for a way to introduce the topic without having to actually quantify the drop in activity.

If this thread shows anything, its that this can be a sensitive topic. Simply stating the apparent fact that hospitals are quiet provokes some quite emotive responses.

And there are plenty of implications. Why pay for private hospital space, if we don't need it? Will private hospital space still be available to address the backlog, once the crisis has passed, or will they find it more lucrative to serve their private customers? Bearing in mind, the motivation for private hospitals to get involved was because they were empty as their usual (frequently older) clients weren't going to be available for the duration of the crisis.

eleventh

Balf wrote:

..this can be a sensitive topic. Simply stating the apparent fact that hospitals are quiet provokes some quite emotive responses.

What kind of emotive responses?
What could it be that speaking from a position of authority might need to be side-stepped?

So hospitals are not full to overflowing as government & media hype would have us believe (surprise surprise).
He's advising now ("urging people" according to the article) to get into hospitals.
Run a mile from such 'advice' !

Balf

eleventh wrote: »

What kind of emotive responses?

Well, like some of the ones here that read "hospitals are quiet", as if it means "nurses are lazy".

There's a peculiar disconnect in discussions. Flat assertions that "hospital wards are busy" coexist not only with the CMO's view that hospitals have too many empty beds, but with interventions like the view of an infectious disease consultant in the Mater that surplus hospital staff could be moved to nursing homes, where they are needed.

With the complication being that nursing homes are mostly privately owned, so instructing a HSE employed/funded nurse to move to one would be a problem.

More of a problem than telling bar staff that they're not to work at all. That we can do.

Public social cooperation is really good, says a lot for our personal values. But we're really bad at accepting and discussing facts if they seem too upsetting.

eleventh

Balf wrote:

There's a peculiar disconnect in discussions. Flat assertions that "hospital wards are busy" coexist not only with the CMO's view that hospitals have too many empty beds, but with interventions like the view of an infectious disease consultant in the Mater that surplus hospital staff could be moved to nursing homes, where they are needed.

All of these can be true at the same time. The problem is the media doesn't represent this reality.
They could have a front page headline some day with a picture of a ward of empty beds. That would bring some balance and allow a bit of perspective. But no, that wouldn't fit the agenda - spread fear as much as possible (There are people I know in the 70+ group who are terrified of this thanks to the independent, rte, sky news etc. They don't do internet so rely on these sources exclusively for their news).

Public social cooperation is really good, says a lot for our personal values. But we're really bad at accepting and discussing facts if they seem too upsetting.

Very true.

mulbot

That primetime interview just now should be a real eye opener.

VillageIdiot71

An example of why its good to be sceptical of claimed eyewitness authority.

DeVore wrote: »

My sister is head clinical pharmacist in a private hospital that has been taken over by the HSE. She's on wards and in and out of patients rooms discussing drug regimes and interactions for NON-covid patients, specifically in orthopaedics.

She's exhausted. Every day she comes home fried and late. Its insanely busy she tells me.

They have moved all the patients from the Mater (for sure) and another major hospital (I *think* Beaumont), into her place literally over the course of about 3 days. The hospitals you are referring to as "quiet" as the ones waiting for the storm. The ones cleared to make room for the covid patients.

The other hostpitals, from what she tells me, are rammed to clear space for the infectious.

That's a post from the start of April. The facts?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-three-private-hospitals-took-no-patients-1.4253584

Three of the private hospitals taken over by the State to help deal with the Covid-19 epidemic accommodated no patients during April, at the height of the crisis.

Overall, two inpatient beds out of three remained empty for the month in the almost 20 private hospitals covered by the deal, which is costing the State €115 million a month.

The Health Service Executive (HSE) says occupancy rates have increased since then.

There was 0 per cent occupancy at St Francis Hospital in Mullingar, Co Westmeath, which has 77 beds; Kingsbridge Hospital in Sligo with 19 beds; and Bon Secours Limerick, which has more than 50 beds, according to figures provided by the HSE to The Irish Times.

Kingsbridge and the Bons Limerick had a large outpatient caseload, according to the HSE.

Another private hospital, the Sports and Surgery Clinic in Santry, Dublin, had a 6 per cent occupancy in April. It carried out just 44 day case and 120 diagnostic tests during the month, an average of fewer than 10 appointments per working day.

Incredibly, Simon Harris is still trying to defend the arrangement, and is referring to these facts as 'myth', a Trump level of denial.

Oh, and the main reason these facts are being laid before the public is the Consultants want to get back to their private work. You like to think they're grateful to the taxpayer for bailing out their empty private hospitals in April. But they won't be. Just more fool you, and are you in the VHI?

coastwatch

This is really a good news story.
We couldn't build a temporary 1000 bed hospital in 10 days like they were able to do in Wuhan
The HSE made arrangements for a huge temporary increase in public hospital capacity, for a worst case scenario.

Great that they had the capability to do that, and even better, that the extra capacity hasn't been needed.