Access During COVID-19

How are all the single fathers coping with access during this time.

I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. The mother is isolating with the kids and i am helping with groceries for her and my own mother. Due to this i am out in shops and technically exposed. I have not had access over this so not sure how to approach it.

Dravokivich

The general guidance is to keep households isolated. Especially if you're doing stuff to help your mother.

Any kind of video calls not an option as a compromise?

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

The general guidance is to keep households isolated. Especially if you're doing stuff to help your mother.

Any kind of video calls not an option as a compromise?

yeah i know its just difficult not knowing when this will end.

I have been trying video calls but its not the same and they are too young to get it.

Rattlehead_ie

Deleted User wrote: »

yeah i know its just difficult not knowing when this will end.

I have been trying video calls but its not the same and they are too young to get it.

Hi keeffo2005
I feel for you, I'm in the exact same situation. My little person is too young to get it as well and I have tried to keep her entertained and interested in the calls as long as I can. Today had a call, was tough, but of course she is more interested in their immediate surroundings and whats going on. I know there is a beautiful/bond relationship between the 2 of us and that will go back to it when this is all over. Try not to worry and take it to heart. Its impossible to see the light at the end of the tunnel of this pandemic, but know that there is one there somewhere.

Best of luck

Lizardlegz

Article on this today. Much be very hard for single parents. I can understand in this article why the mother wants to keep him at home especially if she has elderly relative staying with her. However, that’s just awful for the poor dad. If the dad is self isolating and won’t bring the child anywhere I can’t see why the child can’t go and stay with the dad. It must be awful for parents who can’t see their kids.

Mother tells court she is denying ex-partner access to son over Covid-19 fears
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/mother-tells-court-she-is-denying-ex-partner-access-to-son-over-covid-19-fears-1.4220233

Dravokivich

I was reading about it earlier and feel the judge is being harsh. It's not right to expect people to clog up the courts with orders to vary the access during this pandemic.

AulWan

Dravokivich wrote: »

I was reading about it earlier and feel the judge is being harsh. It's not right to expect people to clog up the courts with orders to vary the access during this pandemic.

It looks like the father applied to have his access enforced, not varied.

The judge named in the article has a reputation for being extremely harsh. If she threatened to jail the mother for breach of the court order, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if she follows through at the next hearing, if the mother hasn't complied.

Gael23

Court ordered access must be maintained as far as I understand

Dravokivich

AulWan wrote: »

It looks like the father applied to have his access enforced, not varied.

The judge named in the article has a reputation for being extremely harsh. If she threatened to jail the mother for breach of the court order, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if she follows through at the next hearing, if the mother hasn't complied.

He was expecting the mother to vary.

Dravokivich

Gael23 wrote: »

Court ordered access must be maintained as far as I understand

While households need to be isolated, not really all that practical.

billie1b

Dravokivich wrote: »

He was expecting the mother to vary.

No he wasn’t, he was expecting the mother to stick to the court order, the judge said the mother would need to vary by either ‘allowing the father his access’, ‘child live with the father’ or to apply for ‘varying access’. Just another clear example of the mother thinking she can control the ex-partners life and stick two fingers up to both him and the judge, happens much too often in this country.

Dravokivich

billie1b wrote: »

No he wasn’t, he was expecting the mother to stick to the court order, the judge said the mother would need to vary by either ‘allowing the father his access’, ‘child live with the father’ or to apply for ‘varying access’. Just another clear example of the mother thinking she can control the ex-partners life and stick two fingers up to both him and the judge, happens much too often in this country.

They expected if the mother was to change, the mother should apply to vary. Why would everyone clog up to courts to apply to vary? The mother clearly stated they had an elderly relative residing with them. This was not a matter of the mother attempting to alienate the father.

Tandey

Seems like the son doesn’t want to talk to his dad as she says he has access to Facebook and that. Which most of, if not all 12 year old kids do this day and age.

Well done to the mother for being sensible and trying to keep her family healthy.

AulWan

Dravokivich wrote: »

He was expecting the mother to vary.

She. Female judge.

And it wasn't an application to vary. It was an application for enforcement of the current order, as the article specifically states the mother was in breach of it.

AulWan

Tandey wrote: »

Seems like the son doesn’t want to talk to his dad as she says he has access to Facebook and that. Which most of, if not all 12 year old kids do this day and age.

.

Completely irrelevant. 12 year olds do not get to decide the terms of the access order.

AulWan

Dravokivich wrote: »

They expected if the mother was to change, the mother should apply to vary. Why would everyone clog up to courts to apply to vary? The mother clearly stated they had an elderly relative residing with them. This was not a matter of the mother attempting to alienate the father.

Just to add, I get your point about expecting the mother to vary and not clogging up the courts.

But seeing as the denial of the father's access began on 4th March - 8 days before the schools were ordered to close - I think the judge may have found her excuse of "isolating" a convenient one.

billie1b

Tandey wrote: »

Seems like the son doesn’t want to talk to his dad as she says he has access to Facebook and that. Which most of, if not all 12 year old kids do this day and age.

My son is on facebook messenger but never messages me, even on whatspp it’s like pulling teeth, he always comes up though. It’s the same when he’s with me, would very rarely message his mam.

billie1b

billie1b wrote: »

My son is on facebook messenger but never messages me, even on whatspp it’s like pulling teeth, he always comes up though. It’s the same when he’s with me, would very rarely message his mam.

While my sons are 4 and 5, they have no interest in video calls and find it strange. But if i called to the door they would be running out the door to meet me. Technology only works with older teens and adults. Kids see having to talk on a phone as a pain.

Rattlehead_ie

Rattlehead_ie wrote: »

Hi keeffo2005
I feel for you, I'm in the exact same situation. My little person is too young to get it as well and I have tried to keep her entertained and interested in the calls as long as I can. Today had a call, was tough, but of course she is more interested in their immediate surroundings and whats going on. I know there is a beautiful/bond relationship between the 2 of us and that will go back to it when this is all over. Try not to worry and take it to heart. Its impossible to see the light at the end of the tunnel of this pandemic, but know that there is one there somewhere.

Best of luck

Thanks Rattlehead.

A part of me knows the Covid19 is a huge problem and hard to get past it. But if this goes on for months, then it could take a long time to rebuild what i have with them

Rattlehead_ie

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks Rattlehead.

A part of me knows the Covid19 is a huge problem and hard to get past it. But if this goes on for months, then it could take a long time to rebuild what i have with them

Agreed mate. I suppose, if its any comfort, there are others in v same situation.
Take pride though as you also mentioned, when you come to that door in x weeks/months time, they will be delighted to see you, just keep the calls up or maybe just a video every few days to send down and say hi , missing them etc. Itll keep you in the back of their mind at least.

Rattlehead_ie

Rattlehead_ie wrote: »

Agreed mate. I suppose, if its any comfort, there are others in v same situation.
Take pride though as you also mentioned, when you come to that door in x weeks/months time, they will be delighted to see you, just keep the calls up or maybe just a video every few days to send down and say hi , missing them etc. Itll keep you in the back of their mind at least.

Hi Rattlehead, what is your situation at the moment?

My solicitor was onto and said there is no way access should be stopped and there needs to be a valid reason such as immunocompromised child to stop it

Rattlehead_ie

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi Rattlehead, what is your situation at the moment?
My solicitor was onto and said there is no way access should be stopped and there needs to be a valid reason such as immunocompromised child to stop it

Hi Keeffo,
Child lives with mother & immunocompromised grandparents, way more than 2km from where I live. Grandparents are cocooning. On the face of that and if her mum is being genuine in her cocooning with her parents, in my head, my lil person needs her grandparents around and while it kills me being away from her at such a young age, she is young, I got to build an amazing relationship with her before all this and I know deep down it will stand to me when its all over. Each situation though is entirely different.

Gael23

There was a piece on the news earlier saying court granted access and maintenance must proceed

Dravokivich

Gael23 wrote: »

There was a piece on the news earlier saying court granted access and maintenance must proceed

It really needs to be commented on practically and not against the court order. Single parents, with the kid, living with grand parents or other elderly relatives, should not be mixing with other households.

My son who lives with me and my parents, was with me initially for a few weeks, he's now with his mother, until whenever this social distancing / lockdown thing is to ease off.

It's going to be difficulty for all of us, but we need to look at the reality of the situation and stop mixing it in with parental alienation. While its a topic that needs to be addressed, it should not be pushed into how we handle this pandemic.

Rattlehead_ie

Dravokivich wrote: »

It really needs to be commented on practically and not against the court order. Single parents, with the kid, living with grand parents or other elderly relatives, should not be mixing with other households.

It's going to be difficulty for all of us, but we need to look at the reality of the situation and stop mixing it in with parental alienation. While its a topic that needs to be addressed, it should not be pushed into how we handle this pandemic.

Agreed its a bad situation for everyone in one way or the other, its horrible for the parent that misses out, but in situations as mentioned we need to take a practical and understanding/flexible approach. I think its a case of "it is what it is" and in the hope that once this situation dies down that the parent that misses out is afforded additional time to make up for the lost time, not for them but for the child.

AulWan

Dravokivich wrote: »

It really needs to be commented on practically and not against the court order. Single parents, with the kid, living with grand parents or other elderly relatives, should not be mixing with other households.

My son who lives with me and my parents, was with me initially for a few weeks, he's now with his mother, until whenever this social distancing / lockdown thing is to ease off.

It's going to be difficulty for all of us, but we need to look at the reality of the situation and stop mixing it in with parental alienation. While its a topic that needs to be addressed, it should not be pushed into how we handle this pandemic.

Except where it obviously is, as in the case posted earlier in the thread, where the mother started denying access even before the schools were closed.

There is no doubt that there are custodial parents who will take advantage of the pandemic and use it as an excuse to deny access.

Dravokivich

AulWan wrote: »

Except where it obviously is, as in the case posted earlier in the thread, where the mother started denying access even before the schools were closed.

There is no doubt that there are custodial parents who will take advantage of the pandemic and use it as an excuse to deny access.

We had already seen other countries close up before the 4th March. There were no access issues referenced in the article before this date. So are you really going to say this is parental alienation, because the mother took this action, a mere week before the schools were closed?

Rattlehead_ie

AulWan wrote: »

Except where it obviously is, as in the case posted earlier in the thread, where the mother started denying access even before the schools were closed.
There is no doubt that there are custodial parents who will take advantage of the pandemic and use it as an excuse to deny access.

100% and let it be on their head that that is the type of person they are, to deny their child something as important as time with the other parent. However each and every situation can only be dealt with on an individual case by case basis in these times(whether its for e.g my, Dravos, Keeffo or the womans in the article below for e.g). Other variable , that are unique to that situation, now have to be added / have to taken into account.

Irish Examiner

AulWan

Dravokivich wrote: »

We had already seen other countries close up before the 4th March. There were no access issues referenced in the article before this date. So are you really going to say this is parental alienation, because the mother took this action, a mere week before the schools were closed?

Yep.

And obviously the Judge did too.

Dravokivich

AulWan wrote: »

Yep.

And obviously the Judge did too.

They didn't. From my reading of the article, they just enforced the court order, and said they expect to see the custodial parent to submit an application for variance. They didn't take the circumstances into account at all.

AulWan

They ordered the mother to comply with the current order, or face further consequences, including the possibility the child could live with his father.

She also said " “I have no difficulty sending someone to jail for breach of access. This is a breach of a court order and you have to comply with court orders.”

Judges simply don't make threats like that on a first offence - not even the Judge in question who has a well known reputation for being an absolute stickler when it comes to non-compliance any court order.

See it for what it is.

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

It really needs to be commented on practically and not against the court order. Single parents, with the kid, living with grand parents or other elderly relatives, should not be mixing with other households.

My son who lives with me and my parents, was with me initially for a few weeks, he's now with his mother, until whenever this social distancing / lockdown thing is to ease off.

It's going to be difficulty for all of us, but we need to look at the reality of the situation and stop mixing it in with parental alienation. While its a topic that needs to be addressed, it should not be pushed into how we handle this pandemic.

My ex in my opinion has taken it to a different level. she is not mingling with anyone but is on her own with the kids. majority of people still need to go to shops, her claim is that she is protecting the kids. My biggest fear now is that she will move her mother in, as i have been pressing her on access as social distancing is with us for another year easily.

Kevhog1988

Hi all, a bit different than the rest of ye as i have had my little lad since the start of lockdown. It was agreed that he would prefer to be here with us as we have land and a bit of a farm for him to muck about with. The only issue is i have been still paying the weekly maintenance even though he is now with me full time (complying with court order). Anyone in the same boat?

Shelli2

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/covid19_and_family_law.html

Essentially it comes down to what the mother says

My ex has now claimed my kids have underlying conditions over getting common sickness over winter and now I suspect she is trying to move in her mother to claim vulnerability.

But if I am forced to take to an emergency court hearing it's at my cost, I have no faith in the system how this can happen, if I with held maintenance to pay for this which is being forced on me, then I am the bad guy. Will she be made pay court costs, not at all

Rattlehead_ie

Deleted User wrote: »

My ex has now claimed my kids have underlying conditions over getting common sickness over winter and now I suspect she is trying to move in her mother to claim vulnerability.

I feel for you. I can only say though I would have thought a court would not look too kindly on the granny moving in now!Its a bit late to be pulling that stunt. As for her claiming the children have underlying issues, being part of their life up to now Im sure you are privy to Dr appointments and unless a doctor says so then thats rubbish too.

AulWan

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

Hi all, a bit different than the rest of ye as i have had my little lad since the start of lockdown. It was agreed that he would prefer to be here with us as we have land and a bit of a farm for him to muck about with. The only issue is i have been still paying the weekly maintenance even though he is now with me full time (complying with court order). Anyone in the same boat?

have you discussed maintenance with the other parent and asked to reduce it or revisit the amount being paid?

If they are agreeable, get something in writing. If not, the best advice would be to stick to the court ordered amount (if there is one) until you can apply for a variance.

Or, at the very least, apply for the variance before making any reduction in payment (still frowned upon) but have your ducks in a row explaining any reduction before going to court.

AulWan

Deleted User wrote: »

Essentially it comes down to what the mother says

My ex has now claimed my kids have underlying conditions over getting common sickness over winter and now I suspect she is trying to move in her mother to claim vulnerability.

But if I am forced to take to an emergency court hearing it's at my cost, I have no faith in the system how this can happen, if I with held maintenance to pay for this which is being forced on me, then I am the bad guy. Will she be made pay court costs, not at all

Can you not represent yourself in court?

I think any Judge would see through kids suddenly developing underlying conditions they didn't have before.

AulWan

AulWan wrote: »

Can you not represent yourself in court?

I think any Judge would see through kids suddenly developing underlying conditions they didn't have before.

i was chatting to my solicitor and this was basically what i was told, judges are not hearing breaches of court orders, some judges are of the opinion kids should not move between house contrary to what the guidelines say. Also was told that i am not the only one in this position and that it is going on wholesale. The solicitor was genuinely very frustrated with the whole thing.

So basically the fathers in this country get screwed over again and the vast difference of punishment for breach of court orders is completely lopsided.

Another annoying thing here is the constant concern over mental health, i know from my own experience, my ex would be the first putting things up on social media about mental health and all that, however fathers being kept out of there childrens lives without any repercussions to the mothers for doing so is going to cause massive issues with mental health and shows that a lot of these mother are in fact extremely narcissistic.

I can see past it, a lot can't. It angers me that my kids are at a crucial age and if my ex manages to keep them from me for 6 -12 months over social distancing it will be extremely hard to rebuild the bond and it will be a major catch up from lost time. Its extremely damaging and this will lead to long term issues as kids will also suffer mentally over this.

Gael23

I would cut off maintenance in that case

jimmycrackcorm

Gael23 wrote: »

I would cut off maintenance in that case

Not exactly, the maintenance is for the benefit of the kids. So I wouldn't be going spending it as a court could order back-owed maintenance to be paid.

jimmycrackcorm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Not exactly, the maintenance is for the benefit of the kids. So I wouldn't be going spending it as a court could order back-owed maintenance to be paid.

Yeah i am trying to think of a strategy. She has torn up the rulebook and is dictating how i see my kids via video call or through a window. Almost like supervised access, plus under 0.2% of the population are active covid 19 cases from a total of 0.4% active cases. That leaves 99.8% of the population not known to be active or showing any signs, its scandalous that this practise of treating fathers are diseased and not allowing to hold their kids.It validates a mother vindictiveness. I am more disgusted that this is not on the press briefings by our leaders, this is something that is going to lead to far more mental health issues than any other group, but hey its only single male fathers, they don't sell newspapers.

Rattlehead_ie

@Keeffo2005,
Ive follow this thread since you started it and your situation sounds very difficult. It does seem as if the child's mother will do anything to twist the situation in her favor and I can only say I know how you feel. Its hugely unfair how the other parent in this country is treated. Its all based on the good will and willing to work on something from the other person and we all know thats not always possible.

However, lets take some bit of a positive. I think we all have a date of May the 18th now that would seem to allow all other parents back into the lives of their little person(s). As I said previously take pride in the fact those kids will be only delighted to see their father and it is perfectly within your right to ask for more time to make up for time lost.

Best of Luck

PmMeUrDogs

Query for a friend - is it possible to apply for a hearing for breach of maintenance, or are the courts closed?

Friend is up in court for a maintenance appeal from the father, was supposed to be in March but was pushed out to July over Covid.

Father has refused to take the child for his access since the beginning of March (no reason not to, no immunocompromised, elderly or otherwise sick people in either family), but has also refused to pay any maintenance for two months and the friend is starting to struggle financially.

AulWan

PmMeUrDogs wrote: »

Query for a friend - is it possible to apply for a hearing for breach of maintenance, or are the courts closed?

Friend is up in court for a maintenance appeal from the father, was supposed to be in March but was pushed out to July over Covid.

Father has refused to take the child for his access since the beginning of March (no reason not to, no immunocompromised, elderly or otherwise sick people in either family), but has also refused to pay any maintenance for two months and the friend is starting to struggle financially.

As far as I know the courts are operating with limited staff. If there is already an application before the courts in relation to maintenance, your friend should ring and ask can she make an application for enforcement of arrears of maintenance to be held on the same date in July as the father's request for a variance. Its unlikely it would be heard before then.

Regarding the refusal to take access, thats not actually a breach of any court order, the non-custodial parent is not bound by an access order, only the custodial parent is.

PmMeUrDogs

AulWan wrote: »

As far as I know the courts are operating with limited staff. If there is already an application before the courts in relation to maintenance, your friend should ring and ask can she make an application for enforcement of arrears of maintenance to be held on the same date in July as the father's request for a variance. Its unlikely it would be heard before then.

Regarding the refusal to take access, thats not actually a breach of any court order, the non-custodial parent is not bound by an access order, only the custodial parent is.

Thank you for that, I'll tell her to call and ask can she make an application with regards to the maintenance breach.

We know she can't do anything about him not taking access, except obviously if it becomes a frequent thing, she can apply for access to be discharged, but she won't do that as she wants them to have a relationship.

Thanks for the advice!

Rattlehead_ie

Rattlehead_ie wrote: »

@Keeffo2005,
Ive follow this thread since you started it and your situation sounds very difficult. It does seem as if the child's mother will do anything to twist the situation in her favor and I can only say I know how you feel. Its hugely unfair how the other parent in this country is treated. Its all based on the good will and willing to work on something from the other person and we all know thats not always possible.

However, lets take some bit of a positive. I think we all have a date of May the 18th now that would seem to allow all other parents back into the lives of their little person(s). As I said previously take pride in the fact those kids will be only delighted to see their father and it is perfectly within your right to ask for more time to make up for time lost.

Best of Luck

Thanks Rattlehead

Unfortunately i can still see her using the social distancing card.

One of my friends told me to read up on parental alienation as his sister went through the same. Maybe i am looking too hard but i think there is definitely early signs and signs of past actions with her other kid.

AulWan

Judge Larkin brought up parental alienation in the update to that court case posted above. Irish Examiner

Its more common then people think it is.

AulWan

AulWan wrote: »

Judge Larkin brought up parental alienation in the update to that court case posted above. Irish Examiner

Its more common then people think it is.

Reading that article has me confused, she describes what she sees as parental alienation but further down attacks both parents over their incapacity to act as parents. Surely this is a contradiction as if parental alienation is taking place how can the father act as a parent when the mother is actively manipulating the child against the father. Obviously there is a bit more to this case

AulWan

Oh i'd say there is a lot more history of conflict between the parents - probably years of back and forth over various issues.

The judge was not accusing the father of alientation though, only the mother, for witholding access. Parental alienation is not generally recognised in Ireland, I'm surprised the Judge said it outright.

Rattlehead_ie

@keeffo2005
Out of interest. Even if say she moved her own mother in. What would be your thinking on when you could see the kids again?
Is it an acceptable risk to have the kids knowing they will go back into the house with granny there? Otherwise you would be waiting till there was a vaccine? I ask due to the questions in my own head at the moment.