Ireland after the Virus

markodaly

So, this Covid-19 outbreak is something unprecidented that we have not seen before. The entire country is pretty much going to be shutdown for a good number of weeks, if not months.... and the economic and social fallout of that is unknown.

However, the number of cases will peak and life will then surely but slowly turn back to normallity, if one can call it that.

However, will it really be back to business the same ol way?

There was lots of talk about the last GE being a change election, but I guess the electorate got their change through a virus.

However, this could be an opportunity as well to change the way we run the country for the better.

First of all, I think we are certain of a FF and FG grand coalition. If ever there was a reason for it, this certainly is and it gives them plenty of political cover.

SF have kinda gone MIA the past 2 weeks, and their mixed messages from the North rasies some eyebrows never mind some of their Anti-Vax comments!

This grand coaltion could be in a stronger position than most to impliment far reaching change to our soceity. A 5 year term of office which focuses exclusively on a few key areas.

Health: Obvioulsy this would be number one, and the blueprint is there, Slaintecare. So go ahead and pumb the nessesary Billions into this. Take the knife to the Unions if they hold it up as the life of the nation litterally is in their hands.

Housing: Probably on the back burner now, but still important. They need to change the planning system from a permission system to an actual planning system. Ban one off housing to those who have no connection to the land or farming. Make people settle in villages, towns or cities. Build high in Urban regions. Reduce the cost of building any way nessesary.

Public Transport: Again obvious, make it harder to spurious objectors to object to bus lanes and metro links. Just because you own a house with a front garden, does not give you a human right to object to every single plan. The needs of the many is more important than the needs of the few.

Broadband: Seems pretty cheap now doesn't it?

Childcare: As we have seen, our childcare system is not fit for purposes, we need to bring the system under state ownership and pay the people a proper wage. They are a key part of the economy.

Taxes: No new tax cuts, every cent needs go into the above key areas.

Pay Rises: Again, like tax cuts no new pay rises for OAPs, teachers, Gardai etc....

TLDR, this could actually be a good thing in the long run. In 5 years time we could make serious improvements to the country in many key areas, namely health, childcare, public transport and housing... but only if we all buy into it together

We should not be going back to the old, everyone in it for themsevels mentality that sees good public policy being very very difficult to execute.

Beasty

Closed

Are you guys just looking to annoy us by starting as many Coronavirus threads as you can?

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

Closed

Are you guys just looking to annoy us by starting as many Coronavirus threads as you can?

Re-opened in its shiny new forum

Snow Garden

We had a better opportunity in 2010 when we actually had a list of reforms forced on us and the country was on it's knees yet we still missed the major targets.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2010/nov/28/ireland-bailout-full-government-statement

Reform of the unemployment benefit system to incentivise early exit from unemployment.
Steps to tackle unemployment and poverty traps including reducing replacement rates for individuals receiving more than one type of benefit (including housing allowance).
Streamline administration of unemployment benefits, social assistance and active labour market policies, to reduce the overlapping of competencies among different departments;
Enhanced conditionality on work and training availability;
Reform of activation policies:
improved job profiling and increased engagement;
a more effective monitoring of jobseekers' activities with regular evidence-based reports;
the application of sanction mechanisms for beneficiaries not complying with job-search conditionality and recommendations for participation in labour market programmes

Competition
Removal of restrictions to competition in sheltered sectors including:
Legal profession:
establish an independent regulator;
implement the recommendations of the Legal Costs Working Group and outstanding Competition Authority recommendations.

Medical Profession:
eliminate restrictions on the number of GPs qualifying, remove restrictions on GPs wishing to treat public patients and restrictions on advertising.

Pharmacy Profession:
ensure the recent elimination of the 50% mark-up paid for medicines under the State's Drugs Payments Scheme is enforced.

Muahahaha

markodaly wrote: »

There was lots of talk about the last GE being a change election, but I guess the electorate got their change through a virus.

Wow, you just couldnt wait to use the corona virus to get a dig in at Sinn Fein.

Stay classy marko

Dyr

Muahahaha wrote: »

Wow, you just couldnt wait to use the corona virus to get a dig in at Sinn Fein.

Stay classy marko

There are some people who will grind their axe no matter how contemptible the circumstances.

A tosser of the first water.

greenfield21

Our economy is built on been a corporate tax haven, with a huge amount of people working for MNCS. These companies probably have the best looking balance sheets of any companies in the world. They could probably lay of people for months with paid leave with only a short term negative effect. We're probably the best postioned of many countries in the world to weather this for that reason.Yeah the small businesses restaurants, hotels,tourism will be hit but should eventually rebound.

lawrencesummers

Give it 12 months and this will all look completely different.

The economic impact will leave some businesses bankrupt, and large companies like airlines will need government intervention, but it will bounce back quick enough, expect to get fleeced for air travel once it returns fully.

Warmer weather And the current social restrictions will help to kill the virus.

A test will be Freely availabe able to tell quickly if it’s Covid-19 leading to quarantine and testing of those in contact. There may be small outbreaks but nothing as serious as this.

A vaccine will exist for vulnerable if there is an outbreak, healthcare professionals may be required to take it.

Essentially once this is under control this particular strain should never have the impact Again that it’s having now and we can all tell stories about how everyone else was panicking but we didn’t.

Mad_maxx

While far from the profound changes a nuclear war would bring, i suspect this will be a significantly transformative event, Europe will likely change in several ways

Harry Palmr

WW2 brought women into the workplace on a large scale and after it ended many found they didn't want to be herded back into the exclusive role of housewife (or wife in waiting).

After Covid 19 is overcome (I'll go for 2 years) many employees will be demanding more flexible practises including working from home that benefit them rather than the employer with a big push for the Four Day or 30 hour week.

landofthetree

Health: Obvioulsy this would be number one, and the blueprint is there, Slaintecare. So go ahead and pumb the nessesary Billions into this. Take the knife to the Unions if they hold it up as the life of the nation litterally is in their hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256%3fmode=amp


We spend a lot on health already.

Maybe we should be looking for reforms before spending more money?

touts

Massive investment in Health and Nationwide broadband to be prepared for the next wave of pandemic.

That will come at the expense of things like the Metro and motorways which will be seen as outdated as people work from home more.

It'll simply go back to the way it was before the virus hit. Political posturing, and the housing 'crisis'.

Except people will feel even more entitled to benefits because the world isn't as safe as they thought it was. But I expect they'll shrug it off pretty quickly and revert back to form.

Plumbthedepths

Muahahaha wrote: »

Wow, you just couldnt wait to use the corona virus to get a dig in at Sinn Fein.

Stay classy marko

That poster and class should not be mentioned in the same sentence.
Pathetic point scoring during a crisis which is taking many lives.

RandomName2

Muahahaha wrote: »

Wow, you just couldnt wait to use the corona virus to get a dig in at Sinn Fein.

Stay classy marko

Bambi wrote: »

There are some people who will grind their axe no matter how contemptible the circumstances.

A tosser of the first water.

And two pro-SF posters being predictably on message, including ignoring most of the OP in order to voice their support for their party.

I don't think any of the parties have done a great job in relation to covid-19, though the buck definitely stops with FG. I think that FF's Stephen Donnelly said some sensible things in relation to travel restrictions, though he was entirely ignored by the government.

However the thread isn't supposed to be about blame, but rather what Ireland will look like afterwards.

There will be a big hole in the budget, and a lot of people looking for work. Hopefully there won't be a lot of people 6ft under as well.

Fred Cryton

markodaly wrote: »

Taxes: No new tax cuts, every cent needs go into the above key areas.

Ha no thanks. FG getting in means they are going to push for tax cuts.



I'd prefer to keep my money rather than hand it out to SF voters. Especially now i know there are hoards of them.

lawrencesummers

touts wrote: »

Massive investment in Health and Nationwide broadband to be prepared for the next wave of pandemic.

That will come at the expense of things like the Metro and motorways which will be seen as outdated as people work from home more.

As much as this may change things truck drivers, farmers, the majority of the service industry, schools, colleges etc etc etc will not be working from home.

Infrastructure constantly needs work.

Health infrastructure needed additional resources before this even happened.

Fred Cryton

By taking these actions, the government is essentially forcing the nation to save their cash in a big way.

I was supposed to go to Spain in April. That's €2k saved. No more restaurants for next few months, probably another €1k saved.

When autumn comes, all that savings and spending power will be unleashed. Economy will be booming again.

Dyr

RandomName2 wrote: »

And two pro-SF posters being predictably on message, including ignoring most of the OP in order to voice their support for their party.

I don't think any of the parties have done a great job in relation to covid-19, though the buck definitely stops with FG. I think that FF's Stephen Donnelly said some sensible things in relation to travel restrictions, though he was entirely ignored by the government.

However the thread isn't supposed to be about blame, but rather what Ireland will look like afterwards.

There will be a big hole in the budget, and a lot of people looking for work. Hopefully there won't be a lot of people 6ft under as well.

I didnt give sinn fein any preference in the last election or the previous one, sorry to ruin your theory there.

Kivaro

Looking at some of the posts on this thread, Ireland will be the same after the Virus.

If there is any positive to take from these trying times is the realisation that we have an opportunity to transform Irish society when we eventually do crawl out of this crisis. There will be the possibility of creating a more balanced and fairer system where the burden is not placed on the working class. How is it just that a working couple with children can be worse off than a non-working couple with children who is supported by the state? Why do renters have to pay a sizeable portion of their earnings for sub-standard accommodation? Why are our health, transportation and other infrastructure services such bad value to those who have to pay the cost?

Just a few of the imbalances that should be addressed while we have the opportunity.

JohnnyFlash

Bambi wrote: »

I didnt give sinn fein any preference in the last election or the previous one, sorry to ruin your theory there.

More a Workers Party man, I'd imagine.

Health: Obvioulsy this would be number one, and the blueprint is there, Slaintecare. So go ahead and pumb the nessesary Billions into this. Take the knife to the Unions if they hold it up as the life of the nation litterally is in their hands.

Struggle to believe people think coronavirus is a good excuse to knife the medical unions

Some nurses and doctors are most likely going to die trying to save people here,

And the 1st thing runs through OP and FGers heads is use this situation to decimate their union and slash pay and conditions....

its a liberialism wet dream.that will go down like a lead ballon with the public

Strumms

Harry Palmr wrote: »

WW2 brought women into the workplace on a large scale and after it ended many found they didn't want to be herded back into the exclusive role of housewife (or wife in waiting).

After Covid 19 is overcome (I'll go for 2 years) many employees will be demanding more flexible practises including working from home that benefit them rather than the employer with a big push for the Four Day or 30 hour week.

Employees need to be careful what they wish for, you’ll have your house phone ringing at 7pm as you are heading out the door with the wife and kids to the cinema or to meet your friends for drinks... “Gerry, sorry to disturb you but just log in there and check your email I need to run something by you for the meeting tomorrow”. I know as it became a thing with me every couple of weeks..

Working and home to my mind were never compatible. For your sanity and wellbeing there should be a separation ! In my last job I had both a work mobile that came home with me but was switched off at 8pm at the end of my shift, and a work laptop which I took home too as they wouldn’t pay to have my locker with a broken lock replaced in work and in the end I got into the habit of dropping it into my boss on the way home for ‘safekeeping’ only to be thrown a dirty look in response.

Prioritize your personal time, personal life. NEVER mix or overlap them.

Ferm001

Hopefully people will realise that their job isn't more important than their family, and keeping up with the Jones is stupid.

dePeatrick

Was reading about the 1918 flu pandemic, people said afterwards it was like nothing happened, people just went on about their life as normal, expect the same here this time.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Prioritize your personal time, personal life. NEVER mix or overlap them.

I do agree, but the problems with taking your work home with you exist regardless of working at home. Social media, and phones have made an employee basically accessible at all hours. For many people checking their email on their phone is the same as getting a text message, and just as quick to respond to.

The people who create boundaries between their work and personal life will continue, just as those who do work after hours will continue. As will the people unable to deny their bosses requests for whatever reason.

markodaly

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

That poster and class should not be mentioned in the same sentence.
Pathetic point scoring during a crisis which is taking many lives.

Pot, say hello to Kettle.

Snow Garden

dePeatrick wrote: »

Was reading about the 1918 flu pandemic, people said afterwards it was like nothing happened, people just went on about their life as normal, expect the same here this time.

Different world.

Ireland will be running a massive budget deficit very soon.

Who is going to lend to Ireland considering it's already massive national debt?

The markets will lend to countries that are less indebted. Only the ECB or IMF will lend to us....if they can.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

Struggle to believe people think coronavirus is a good excuse to knife the medical unions

Some nurses and doctors are most likely going to die trying to save people here,

And the 1st thing runs through OP and FGers heads is use this situation to decimate their union and slash pay and conditions....

its a liberialism wet dream.that will go down like a lead ballon with the public

You misunderstand the point or it went over your head.

I explicitly said to pump more Billions into the health service, however, this does not mean the Unions get to dictate where those billions are spent.

The HSE and the health service is a hodgepodge of vested interests and little empire builder which makes reform very very difficult. It is not about slashing pay and conditions, its about reform the health service so we as a nation have a better system overall for the entire country.

Unions need to play ball here and not go back to bidding for crumbs while the entire system remains the same. In fact, your gut knee jerk reaction is exactly what we need to avoid.

Geuze

markodaly wrote: »

I explicitly said to pump more Billions into the health service, however, this does not mean the Unions get to dictate where those billions are spent.

We already over-spend on health, relative to the age profile of our population.

Reform is needed, not more spending.

Charles Babbage

Geuze wrote: »

We already over-spend on health, relative to the age profile of our population.

Reform is needed, not more spending.

Unions are not the main problem in the health service, the problem is management who use unions as an excuse.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Unions need to play ball here and not go back to bidding for crumbs while the entire system remains the same. In fact, your gut knee jerk reaction is exactly what we need to avoid.

My reaction was what exactly??

Expressing a view that using coronavirus as an excuse to attack unions within the health service will be politically unpopular given many nurses and doctors are likely to die (hopefully not though)


I do agree a state run childcare where employees are paid properly is good though,if we have an econmy where 2 parents work,childcare becomes an essential service and state run option should be available

RobbingBandit

A lot of businesses will soon have to close with many of them unfortunately being in the position due to the short or medium term loss of revenue being unable to open again there's gonna be a massive economic downturn felt across the board due to loss of productivity stock of certain types of items will dry up this isn't gonna be a short-term situation it will recur through the coming months when the dust(sneezing) settles it will be a very dark time but we will hopefully be able to handle this.

Gael23

I can see really cheap flights as airlines seek to shore up cash flow

TheValeyard

beggars_bush

Gael23 wrote: »

I can see really cheap flights as airlines seek to shore up cash flow

Yep. Paying for planes and they aren't flying

lawrencesummers

markodaly wrote: »

You misunderstand the point or it went over your head.

I explicitly said to pump more Billions into the health service, however, this does not mean the Unions get to dictate where those billions are spent.

The HSE and the health service is a hodgepodge of vested interests and little empire builder which makes reform very very difficult. It is not about slashing pay and conditions, its about reform the health service so we as a nation have a better system overall for the entire country.

Unions need to play ball here and not go back to bidding for crumbs while the entire system remains the same. In fact, your gut knee jerk reaction is exactly what we need to avoid.

When have the unions every dictated to the HSE how it wastes its money?

Yellow_Fern

touts wrote: »

Massive investment in Health and Nationwide broadband to be prepared for the next wave of pandemic.

That will come at the expense of things like the Metro and motorways which will be seen as outdated as people work from home more.

Very few people want to work from home.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

My reaction was what exactly??

Expressing a view that using coronavirus as an excuse to attack unions within the health service will be politically unpopular given many nurses and doctors are likely to die (hopefully not though)


I do agree a state run childcare where employees are paid properly is good though,if we have an econmy where 2 parents work,childcare becomes an essential service and state run option should be available

Ah look, I did not come down in the last shower. Of course, it's not all the Unions fault but they are a large part of the problem when it comes to reform.

A classic case are nurses. They have been getting more qualified and professional for many years now, but the unions refuse to hand over more basic duties to other health care assistants. A small example of what goes on behind the scenes.

greenfield21

greenfield21 wrote: »

Our economy is built on been a corporate tax haven, with a huge amount of people working for MNCS. These companies probably have the best looking balance sheets of any companies in the world. They could probably lay of people for months with paid leave with only a short term negative effect. We're probably the best postioned of many countries in the world to weather this for that reason.Yeah the small businesses restaurants, hotels,tourism will be hit but should eventually rebound.

Facebook to give $1000 bonus...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/17/coronavirus-facebook-to-give-1000-bonuses-to-each-of-its-employees.html

Galwayguy35

People thinking a bit of heat in the summer killing this thing off and all will be back to normal come Sept are being very optimistic IMO.

We could be looking at a recession that makes the one in 2008 seem like a walk in the park.

jobeenfitz

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

People thinking a bit of heat in the summer killing this thing off and all will be back to normal come Sept are being very optimistic IMO.

We could be looking at a recession that makes the one in 2008 seem like a walk in the park.

Or they could be right. We don't really know, do we?

Galwayguy35

jobeenfitz wrote: »

Or they could be right. We don't really know, do we?

I never said we did.

solidasarock

I wonder if this could be the end of cheap and easy consumer international travel

lawrencesummers

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

People thinking a bit of heat in the summer killing this thing off and all will be back to normal come Sept are being very optimistic IMO.

We could be looking at a recession that makes the one in 2008 seem like a walk in the park.

2008 was completely different. Banks had failed, huge numbers lost their jobs. People had credit issues and the housing market was destroyed.

This may well be a recession, the technical economic type but as soon as it abates then anyone laid off will be rehired. Many People will continue to Earn as before, and they will return to spending very quickly.

Housing market will not be affected much as people can still buy and sell.

solidasarock

solidasarock wrote: »

I wonder if this could be the end of cheap and easy consumer international travel

Doubt it. Consumerism trumps everything else. There will just be more delays similar to all the security implemented against terrorism. They'll invent a handy machine to scan people, and that'll be it.

JP Liz V1

I think some sectors like hospitality and tourism are going to be hit very hard and many businesses will not re open, it will take a few years for Ireland to fully recover

Harry Palmr

solidasarock wrote: »

I wonder if this could be the end of cheap and easy consumer international travel

I suspect it'll be curtailed for a while, if only because several airlines are going to go bust, they'll be after state money but it may be better to let some of them go. So much trade is short hop leisure, and gratuitous business class that can be done remotely, it's a cultural thing that keeps seats filled maybe a lengthy break with loosen the grip on our imagination.

BetterWay

solidasarock wrote: »

I wonder if this could be the end of cheap and easy consumer international travel

Terrible business model. They'll need as many customers as they can.

wadacrack

I see alot of changes after this outbreak is over. Its not going to be the same. Lifestyle and possibly more empathy in the world. Climate change will be taking more seriously. I'm interested to hear people's view's on this?