House Items going missing

fran38

Hi. Looking for advice please. Im a homeowner with two rooms rented. One to a fella and the other to a woman. Both working, paying their rent and bills on time. No problems with either (ok, the woman leaves her clothes, bed linen all over the place but thats a minor thing in my eyes).
Last month i noticed my flower vase went missing, a nice cut crystal worth at least 70e. I let this go as i thaught one of them might have dropped it and broke it and i was hoping they'd come to me. Last night i noticed something else was missing. A framed concert poster i got 12 years ago which was hanging in the hallway. I bought the poster seperately and then got it framed. All worth 150e in total.
My gut instinct is to ask both if they know anything about these items going missing and in the absense of a straight answer give them both notice to quit. Of course im aware ill be upsetting one of them but whats my options? Can i withold all their deposit (all or in part) seeing as there will be an ESB bill to be paid plus the cost of the items (deposit 350).
I dont have contracts/tenancy agreements written up. Its a very loose and ad hoc set up.
Thanks.

akelly02

Just ask them, politely, where the items are, that you noticed they are missing.

play it from there

simple really

callaway92

fran38 wrote: »

My gut instinct is to ask both if they know anything about these items going missing and in the absense of a straight answer give them both notice to quit. Of course im aware ill be upsetting one of them but whats my options? Can i withold all their deposit (all or in part) seeing as there will be an ESB bill to be paid plus the cost of the items (deposit 350).
I dont have contracts/tenancy agreements written up. Its a very loose and ad hoc set up.
Thanks.

You cannot withold their deposits based on assumption. Can't believe you've even asked that.

KevRossi

You can withold the part of the deposit for bills or damage, but not for theft as you've no proof that they stole it.

For the bills, just take a meter reading the day they move out and calculate what is owed from the reading on the last bill. Hand them back what they are owed and leave it at that.

ryansmith171

yes you can

fran38

callaway92 wrote: »

You cannot withold their deposits based on assumption. Can't believe you've even asked that.

Cant i assume one of them took those items? Because they are missing. Facts are facts no?

callaway92

callaway92 wrote: »

You cannot withold their deposits based on assumption. Can't believe you've even asked that.

Well the items didn’t walk out the door themselves so there is no assumption and if neither come clean they will just have to pay up equally.

punisher5112

I'd recommend anything of high value or likes of the frame if you have more get them and put them away.

I'd say to both, be strong but not aggressive.

The vase may well have broke but we don't know that.

Just say, what's the story my frame is gone etc.

Effects

punisher5112 wrote: »

I'd recommend anything of high value or likes of the frame if you have more get them and put them away.

You can't just pack up everything in your house like that.

punisher5112

Effects wrote: »

You can't just pack up everything in your house like that.

Did I say everything but more expensive stuff I would if things are until it's sorted.

Browney7

fran38 wrote: »

Cant i assume one of them took those items? Because they are missing. Facts are facts no?

Who's to say you didn't sell them or remove them from the house yourself and are now trying to pin them both for something they didn't do?

You've to have proof as opposed to your let's see them deny it or make them prove they didn't do it approach

TheBoyConor

I would order them both into the kitchen and explain the situation. Items are missing and that it is obviously some one of the two of them behind it.
Tell them you're not interested in who done it and you just want the items returned or the value of them left on the table within 24hrs or else both of them are out on their arse but not before the Gardai are involved. (licensees not tenants, so they have next to no rights at all thankfully).

Then the innocent person might pressure the guilty into returning or paying the value of the items.
Then you might be able to deduce from the innocent person that it was not they who returned/payed and then you have the guilty person. And then you can go about ejecting them from the property.

Another thing might be to thoroughly inspect the rooms inside out without any notice. It is your house and you are owner occupier, you are perfectly entitled to do this and go in as you please. One of these situations where not having a written contract saying anything about privacy and inpsections would be a benefit.

Del2005

Sariyah Few Colon wrote: »

Well the items didn’t walk out the door themselves so there is no assumption and if neither come clean they will just have to pay up equally.

Then the innocent party is being punished for something they know nothing about. Kick them both out, return their deposits less bills and don't leave stuff you value in common areas.

KevRossi

Sariyah Few Colon wrote: »

Well the items didn’t walk out the door themselves so there is no assumption and if neither come clean they will just have to pay up equally.

That's nonsense, and it's stupid. You wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court.

It's the kind of rubbish a supervisor in a kindergarden would come up with.

Effects

punisher5112 wrote: »

Did I say everything but more expensive stuff I would if things are until it's sorted.

A poster in a frame isn't that expensive an item, so yeah, you'd have to lock everything away it seems.

punisher5112

Effects wrote: »

A poster in a frame isn't that expensive an item, so yeah, you'd have to lock everything away it seems.

Ok didn't realise €150 isn't worth much

Del2005

Another option is a “honey pot”. Leave something out and set up a camera, it it’s taken you have all the proof you need. This would be my preferred move actually.

Del2005 wrote: »

Then the innocent party is being punished for something they know nothing about. Kick them both out, return their deposits less bills and don't leave stuff you value in common areas.

Absolutely unacceptable. I would not be out of pocket simple as that. The likely outcome is that the innocent person would force the other person to own up so the threat of equal split would likely be enough.

KevRossi wrote: »

That's nonsense, and it's stupid. You wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court.

It's the kind of rubbish a supervisor in a kindergarden would come up with.

Ha ha court, good luck with that. Licensees with no rights remember.

This is it

Nox seems the type where it's "I'll do what I want and fûck the consequences". That's fine once the OP understands that by following that idiotic advice, there will be consequences.

Mrs OBumble

Did you have previous renters? Were the locks changed when they moved out?

Calypso Realm

OP Incidents like this are best nipped in the bud, so ideally you should have tackled this earlier with both present with something (casual) like 'Has anyone seen that vase?' Even if someone had accidentally broken it and not mentioned it, doesn't look good, though of course it's possible they may have 'forgotten' about it. At any rate you need to investigate what happened in both cases. Two items going missing is no coincidence, though!

The last thing you want is a thief living with you so I would get to the bottom of this asap, suss out the culprit and evict as otherwise you'll most probably find the thefts will escalate, other items will go missing. At the very least, knock this on the head.....now! Let us know how it goes.

KevRossi

Sariyah Few Colon wrote: »

Ha ha court, good luck with that. Licensees with no rights remember.

You really haven't a clue do you? You may be a licensee but you still have rights. Included in that is the return of cash paid as a deposit so long as there are no outstanding debts.

So yeah, I'd be on to a solicitor if a landlord withheld my deposit because someone else stole/broke some property. It's not the 1870's.

wench

Sariyah Few Colon wrote: »

Ha ha court, good luck with that. Licensees with no rights remember.

The small claims court deals with deposits from licensees, so yes, they do have rights.

El Tarangu

Sariyah Few Colon wrote: »

Another option is a “honey pot”. Leave something out and set up a camera, it it’s taken you have all the proof you need. This would be my preferred move actually.

This is genuinely daft; OP, don't do this.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I would order them both into the kitchen and explain the situation. Items are missing and that it is obviously some one of the two of them behind it.
Tell them you're not interested in who done it and you just want the items returned or the value of them left on the table within 24hrs or else both of them are out on their arse but not before the Gardai are involved. (licensees not tenants, so they have next to no rights at all thankfully).

Then the innocent person might pressure the guilty into returning or paying the value of the items.
Then you might be able to deduce from the innocent person that it was not they who returned/payed and then you have the guilty person. And then you can go about ejecting them from the property.

This sounds like your best bet; unless the thief has the best poker face in the world, you should be able to figure out who the guilty party is from the one who is utterly perplexed to the the one that is studiously nonchalant.

El Tarangu

El Tarangu wrote: »

This is genuinely daft; OP, don't do this.

.

Trying to find out who is stealing your properly is daft? Are you for real??

fatbhoy

Has any of their friends been in the house?

Xterminator

Hi Op

you would do well to stay within the law here.

you would be perfectly with your rights to chat with both of your room renters and tell them you plan to call the guards unless the items turn up or you are going to terminate the licensee arrangement.

in all honesty you know one of them is a thief. if you think you know who it is, just terminate their rental with a weeks notice. if your not sure terminate both, and seek new licensees

But you cannot take 'self help'. you cannot keep deposit. You cannot accuse anyone in ireland of stealing without proof. You open yourself to censure and legal action if you act outside of the law.

TheBlock

Ask them both could they make themselves available for a meeting with the Gardai who will be dropping in later in the week regarding some thefts from the house. Might solicit an admission.

Effects

punisher5112 wrote: »

Ok didn't realise €150 isn't worth much

It's not worth €150.

beggars_bush

I'd consider something that cost €150 valuable

ask them separately

If neither of them own up, give them both notice and get new renters in and learn your lesson

fran38

fran38 wrote: »

All worth 150e in total.

Effects wrote: »

It's not worth €150.

??????

Ray Palmer

Effects wrote: »

It's not worth €150.

It could be worth more than it cost. Framed up signed poster is worth more then the framing costs and the cost of the poster. There is also emotional value.

Ray Palmer

If I had items missing from a rental property I would simply deduct it from the deposit. I wouldn't know which occupant took it but all would end up needing to pay. I am not sure why it would be different if they are licencees.

Can somebody explain why they think it is different?

Effects

Ray Palmer wrote: »

There is also emotional value.

Emotional value costs nothing.

Ray Palmer

Effects wrote: »

Emotional value costs nothing.

In the law it does whether you like it our not.

dubrov

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If I had items missing from a rental property I would simply deduct it from the deposit. I wouldn't know which occupant took it but all would end up needing to pay. I am not sure why it would be different if they are licencees.

Can somebody explain why they think it is different?

In this case, the homeowner has access to the same property.
Who is to say that they didn't remove the items as a way of extracting cash out of the licensees?

Effects

Deleted User wrote: »

??????

What you paid for something, and what it's worth are two different things.

Ray Palmer

dubrov wrote: »

In this case, the homeowner has access to the same property.
Who is to say that they didn't remove the items as a way of extracting cash out of the licensees?

Same has been said when I pointed furniture went missing and I didn't live there. So I see no difference.

Gwen Cooper

This could also be more innocent than it seems. Someone might be after getting some flowers, and borrowed the vase, took it in their room, and never put it back where it goes. Could the framed poster be moved somewhere, maybe in the attic/shed? I have a housemate who thinks that the house belongs to him and he keeps moving things that are in the common spaces, could it be something like that, rather than stealing?

Effects

Effects wrote: »

What you paid for something, and what it's worth are two different things.

Nit-picking nonsense, it could well have appreciated in value for all you know? Fact is, OP paid x for them and to replace them would probably cost at least €x.

fatbhoy

The only real solution to this is to write-off the loss, and get two new tenants.

3102derek

Well OP what the outcome?

Ray Palmer

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

This could also be more innocent than it seems. Someone might be after getting some flowers, and borrowed the vase, took it in their room, and never put it back where it goes. Could the framed poster be moved somewhere, maybe in the attic/shed? I have a housemate who thinks that the house belongs to him and he keeps moving things that are in the common spaces, could it be something like that, rather than stealing?

That doesn't sound innocent. That sounds like a huge over step. They aren't housemates and don't have any right to be moving or taking the owners pocessions.

greencoat

jesus they are been obvious in what they take lets be honest,i think if i was to stroke something it would not be a picture from the hall wall..odd choice.i would be having none of that lark in my house,lay it them both,cards on the table.

Gwen Cooper

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That doesn't sound innocent. That sounds like a huge over step. They aren't housemates and don't have any right to be moving or taking the owners pocessions.

Well I didn't say exactly that it's innocent, but definitely more innocent than stealing. Agree with a huge overstep, definitely. Just not as serious as stealing in my eyes.

the_syco

fran38 wrote: »

Last month i noticed my flower vase went missing, a nice cut crystal worth at least 70e.

If you live there, find the guilty party, and evict. Then bring criminal proceedings against them.

fran38 wrote: »

I dont have contracts/tenancy agreements written up. Its a very loose and ad hoc set up.

Also, if you live there, don't give them more rights.

DesperateDan

I think you would have to be a serious kleptomaniac or a total lunatic to be stealing items like that from the place you live. Would bet money on it something else is going on here.

lulu1

I would get them both together and ask them about it .

You say they are good tenants who pay their rent on time.

It would be a pity to lose them if there is some other explanation

El Tarangu

Sariyah Few Colon wrote: »

Trying to find out who is stealing your properly is daft? Are you for real??

If you were to start secretly recording people where they live, without their foreknowledge and consent, I can picture all sorts of negative legal and social ramifications if they ever found out.

El Tarangu

El Tarangu wrote: »

If you were to start secretly recording people where they live, without their foreknowledge and consent, I can picture all sorts of negative legal and social ramifications if they ever found out.

Legal this legal that, where do people get these ideas in their head.

You can do what ever you want in your own home. You can place a camera where ever the hell you want, please don’t spread nonsense ideas that you can’t as someone might believe it.

You do not need consent to record someone one your private property or in a public place for that matter.

There was even a thread here recently where a LL had hidden cameras in a tenants property and the guards said it’s nothing whatsoever to do with them, not a legal matter.

TheChizler

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If I had items missing from a rental property I would simply deduct it from the deposit. I wouldn't know which occupant took it but all would end up needing to pay. I am not sure why it would be different if they are licencees.

Can somebody explain why they think it is different?

In a tenancy normally the individual tenants are jointly and severally responsible for rent and damage, with a shared deposit between them. In a house share agreements are normally individual and seperate deposits.

dubrov

Kash Rotten Lottery wrote:

There was even a thread here recently where a LL had hidden cameras in a tenants property and the guards said it’s nothing whatsoever to do with them, not a legal matter.

I'd say they said it was not a criminal matter. Expect a massive legal bill if you are caught videotaping licensees without their knowledge