Prospective landlords asking for too much information

K.O.Kiki

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/what-information-can-a-landlord-request-from-me/
https://www.dataprotection.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/2019-07/190710%20Requesting%20Personal%20Data%20from%20Prospective%20Tenants.pdf
https://www.dataprotection.ie/en/news-media/podcasts/know-your-data-requesting-personal-data-prospective-tenants-1

From what I understand, as per GDPR & GDC we are being asked too much from "prospective" landlords, namely:

PPS number
Copy of ID
Payslips / bank statements

(I'm happy to provide landlord/work references)

I'm paranoid that eventually I'll come across a scumbag who's in it to use my info & do something like open an account in my name.

There is nothing to prevent you refusing to provide the requested information.

punisher5112

It's the way it's gone, anyone willing to let out a property that is worth a lot of money wants to protect themselves as much as possible.

Some want more then you were asked.

Mic 1972

Payslip an Bank Statement should be a must check, I would also check Linkedin profile to see work stability

TheBoyConor

They are entitled to ask. You are not obliged to provide. Nor are they obliged to lease the property to you.

Graham

The Data Protection Commission guidance is fairly unambiguous:

It will be difficult for a controller to justify, by reference to the principle of data minimisation, the extensive collection of personal data such as financial statements, utility bills, references, PPSNs, etc., from numerous, or all, interested parties at the initial stages of advertising or hosting viewings of a property. This is because such information will generally not be necessary at the early stages of the leasing process, where interested persons may simply be looking to view a property or make enquiries in relation to it. In most cases such information will not be necessary until such time as a landlord decides upon a preferred tenant and makes an offer to a prospective tenant

Graham

Graham wrote: »

The Data Protection Commission guidance is fairly unambiguous:

And if the LL justifies the using of that criteria to decide on a preferred tenant? I think checking that a potential tenant can afford to pay for the property is important, if they commence tenancy and then claim they don’t have the means to pay, eviction can be protracted and expensive.

Personally, I would respect anyone’s right to not provide that information, I expect that they will respect my decision not to pick them as a preferred tenant.

Browney7

Dav010 wrote: »

And if the LL is using that criteria to decide on a preferred tenant?

Then provided they have the relevent policies in place they can ask for it.

LLs shouldn't be asking in advance of conducting viewings for all this information to be provided. Just because a landlord has agreed to show a place to a tenant doesn't mean they have to offer it to them. There is nothing to stop a would be Identity thief putting a fraudulent ad up looking for personal info under the guise of renting a property and seeing what information comes back.

The cynic would also think it's to protect LLs from inadvertently offering to rent the property to a HAP tenant who ticks all other boxes - LL "I'd like to rent my property to you John Doe subject to satisfactory references". JD "no problem, here's my ten landlord references and work reference and HAP eligibility confirmation which illustrates ability to pay"

Baby01032012

If it is for purposes of the renting of the apartment and thus in course of their business there is no Gdpr issue.

Pps is required for rtb reg. bank statements and payslips are a way to prove tenant has sufficient income to be able to meet the rental payments.

As before you have right not to give and potential landlord has right not to rent the apartment to you.

Gael23

Your PPS and ID are required by PRTB

K.O.Kiki

Baby01032012 wrote: »

If it is for purposes of the renting of the apartment and thus in course of their business there is no Gdpr issue.

Pps is required for rtb reg. bank statements and payslips are a way to prove tenant has sufficient income to be able to meet the rental payments.

As before you have right not to give and potential landlord has right not to rent the apartment to you.

That's why I'm willing to give a landlord reference (stating I've paid on-time for 5 years) and work reference (stating I am in full employment).

Gael23 wrote: »

Your PPS and ID are required by PRTB

Yes, it's required for tenancy registration, and I'm willing to give it ONCE I'm signing a contract!
Not before, as I have no idea what they're doing with my data, how they're storing it or when they will destroy it.

K.O.Kiki

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

That's why I'm willing to give a landlord reference (stating I've paid on-time for 5 years) and work reference (stating I am in full employment).


Yes, it's required for tenancy registration, and I'm willing to give it ONCE I'm signing a contract!
Not before, as I have no idea what they're doing with my data, how they're storing it or when they will destroy it.

Put simply, the LL has no obligation to consider you as a tenant, so if you don’t want to provide the requested info, don’t, move on to the next property.

Graham

Dav010 wrote: »

And if the LL justifies the using of that criteria to decide on a preferred tenant?

This is the relevant part

It will be difficult for a controller to justify, by reference to the principle of data minimisation, the extensive collection of personal data such as financial statements, utility bills, references, PPSNs, etc., from numerous, or all, interested parties at the initial stages of advertising or hosting viewings of a property.

You should take your own legal advice and/or have a discussion with the DPC to find out if you're a special case not subject to the usual guidance.


Source: Data Protection Commission Requesting Personal Data from Prospective Tenants

Feel free to link to sources that state otherwise.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

This is the relevant part



You should take your own legal advice and/or have a discussion with the DPC to find out if you're a special case not subject to the usual guidance.


Source: Data Protection Commission Requesting Personal Data from Prospective Tenants

Feel free to link to sources that state otherwise.

It’s guidance only.

ELM327

They are as entitled to ask as you are to say no.

Graham

Dav010 wrote: »

It’s guidance only.

From the horses mouth as it were.

In the absence of a dissenting qualified opinion, I'd take the guidance.

OP, in you feel a prospective landlord/letting-agency are over-reaching then lodge a complaint with the DPC.

What usually follows is a reminder to the individual organisations involved at which point the majority will 'adjust' their requests.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

From the horses mouth as it were.

In the absence of a dissenting qualified opinion, I'd take the guidance.

OP, in you feel a prospective landlord/letting-agency are over-reaching then lodge a complaint with the DPC.

What usually follows is a reminder to the individual organisations involved at which point the majority will 'adjust' their requests.

On reading the link you quoted, I am now better informed, you are right.

But, the op’s chances of renting that property are zero. It may well be a hollow victory and many applicants will not be put off by the request if it means they stand a better chance of being the preferred tenant. That is the reality of the situation, the EA/LL can put their justification to the horse and see how it pans out.

Graham

I've no doubt you're right but if enough people make complaints to the DPC mindsets and actions will begin to change.

It's an easy enough process online: https://forms.dataprotection.ie/contact

Graham

Graham wrote: »

I've no doubt you're right but if enough people make complaints to the DPC mindsets and actions will begin to change.

It's an easy enough process online: https://forms.dataprotection.ie/contact

I suspect prospective tenants are more concerned about securing a rental property than anything else. I would have thought illegal rent price increases would be more of an issue to tenants than this, but rents keep going up. Sometimes Graham, you have to accept that it isn’t black and white, renting is a beauty contest.

Graham

Unfortunately there will always be landlords (and tenants) who think the law doesn't apply to them and it will be largely down to tenants or prospective tenants to lodge the appropriate complaints.

I understand there are already cases where landlords and estate agents have adjusted their documentation requirements after advice from the DPC on the back of complaints from the renting public. So lodging a quick complaint/concern online does work (and costs nothing).

MacDanger

While these requests are an overreach by the LL, it's also reflective of the fact that overholding has become a problem and LLs are trying to protect themselves from this which is understandable IMO

Graham

Graham wrote: »

Unfortunately there will always be landlords (and tenants) who think the law doesn't apply to them.

Is a guideline a law?

L1011

Dav010 wrote: »

Is a guideline a law?

Most guidelines are based on legislation in this area. Up to the priciest barristers in the land to argue about whose interpretation of the legislation is right in the end

_Brian

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/what-information-can-a-landlord-request-from-me/
https://www.dataprotection.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/2019-07/190710%20Requesting%20Personal%20Data%20from%20Prospective%20Tenants.pdf
https://www.dataprotection.ie/en/news-media/podcasts/know-your-data-requesting-personal-data-prospective-tenants-1

From what I understand, as per GDPR & GDC we are being asked too much from "prospective" landlords, namely:

PPS number
Copy of ID
Payslips / bank statements

(I'm happy to provide landlord/work references)

I'm paranoid that eventually I'll come across a scumbag who's in it to use my info & do something like open an account in my name.

It’s their house, remember that.
If your not comfortable doing that then don’t and move on to the next property and someone else will be glad to rent it.

L1011

L1011 wrote: »

Most guidelines are based on legislation in this area. Up to the priciest barristers in the land to argue about whose interpretation of the legislation is right in the end

I appreciate that, but the guidelines seem to say that the LL has to justify the reason for the data, it is not legally prohibited. Is it legally prohibited in all instances?

Mr.S

Mr.S wrote: »

They are standard documents to ask for, I’d be more worried about landlords / estate agents not storing / deleting the data correctly vs something fraudulent.

Bank statements? Go away out of that.

Graham

Dav010 wrote: »

I appreciate that, but the guidelines seem to say that the LL has to justify the reason for the data, it is not legally prohibited. Is it legally prohibited in all instances?

Did you find a qualified opinion anywhere that suggests the guidelines are incorrect or can be safely considered as optional?

boege

What a prospective landlord/agent may request from you

When looking for private rented accommodation you may be asked to provide certain information to a prospective landlord or agent. Below is a list of items that prospective tenants may be asked to provide:

- PPS No. (this is required for the registration of the tenancy with the Residential Tenancies Board) (www.rtb.ie)
- A reference from your previous landlord
- A reference from your current employer
- Photo I.D. such as a driving licence or passport
- Evidence of residency
- Recent bank statements
- Payslips

The Data Protection Commissioner has recently raised concerns at the information requested pre-tenancy-click here for more on this and click here for a podcast on the issue

Under Data Protection legislation any information held should be adequate, relevant and not excessive for the purposes for which it has been obtained and held. Such information cannot be misused. You can get more information from the Data Protection Commissioners website here.

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/what-information-can-a-landlord-request-from-me/

Graham

Which links right back to where we started:

Requesting Personal Data from Prospective Tenants

Graham

Graham wrote: »

Did you find a qualified opinion anywhere that suggests the guidelines are incorrect or can be safely considered as optional?

Can you usually find such qualified opinions on Boards? I had assumed legal advice was against the charter. Maybe you can show that a LL cannot justify the request, is a guideline a qualified opinion? Maybe it is.

My limited understanding of the law from having attended many lectures relating to my own profession, is that guidelines are not necessarily laws, they are open to consideration and interpretation, for guidance only. The DC raised concerns, maybe he/she should have outright banned seeking this type of info, be it seems he/she didn’t.

runawaybishop

Graham wrote: »

Which links right back to where we started:

Requesting Personal Data from Prospective Tenants

May, likely, possible, if.

It's general guidance, it's not specific and shouldn't be blindly followed.

The bit you quoted initially talked about utility bills and other stuff you don't need for a tenancy, the op is asking specifically about required or easily justified information.

That said,the DP laws are being interpreted by lunatics so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a breech.

Graham

In July 2014, a prospective tenant complained about the collection of bank details, PPS
numbers, and copies of utility bills by a letting agency when applying to rent a property. She
stated that she believed that if she did not supply all of the sought data up-front, her application
would not be seriously considered by the letting agency. The complainant said that the practice
of collecting such a broad range of personal data forces prospective tenants who are
desperate to rent a property to submit this personal information at application stage even
though they do not know if their application will be successful. She pointed out that the majority
of applications are unsuccessful given the high demand for a limited supply of rental properties.

The DPC commenced an investigation of the matter with the letting agency concerned, seeking
an explanation for the collection of such a broad range of personal data at application stage.
In response, the letting agency said that it requested PPS numbers from applicants because this
verifies that they are entitled to work in the state, and that bank details are required to show
that a tenant has a bank account because they would be ineligible if they were not able to pay
rent through a bank account. The DPC informed the letting agency that it could not see any
basis for collecting bank details, PPS numbers, or copies of utility bills at application or
property-viewing stage and urged it to cease the practice immediately. The DPC questioned
the letting agency further about using the PPS number to verify the applicant’s work status. It
replied to the effect that the main reason it requests PPS numbers is that it is required for the
Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB) registration. It went on to say that it is only an added
assurance that the applicant is working and it stated that it does not verify the PPS number.

The DPC accepted that personal data concerning bank details, PPS numbers and utility bills
could be requested once the applicant had been accepted as a tenant. In October 2014, the
letting agency confirmed, following our investigation, that it had ceased the requesting of this
personal data prior to the property being let and it undertook that it would only request this
information once the tenant had been accepted

Why would the outcome be any different now?

Samuel T. Cogley

The other aspect to this is if LL's insist on all this stuff at the viewing stage it's likely to be legislated that it can't be asked for at all.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

Why would the outcome be any different now?

I’m sure the LL will be happy next time around to not request it. 😜

Varik

I'm sure such legislation to ban it will be very effective, and not at all easily bypassed. At worst you'd have more viewings for people who've no hope of getting it. Same as with banning rent supplement discrimination. All they care about is perception.

Fol20

Browney7 wrote: »

Then provided they have the relevent policies in place they can ask for it.

LLs shouldn't be asking in advance of conducting viewings for all this information to be provided. Just because a landlord has agreed to show a place to a tenant doesn't mean they have to offer it to them. There is nothing to stop a would be Identity thief putting a fraudulent ad up looking for personal info under the guise of renting a property and seeing what information comes back.

The cynic would also think it's to protect LLs from inadvertently offering to rent the property to a HAP tenant who ticks all other boxes - LL "I'd like to rent my property to you John Doe subject to satisfactory references". JD "no problem, here's my ten landlord references and work reference and HAP eligibility confirmation which illustrates ability to pay"

I don’t think HAP shows an ability to pay. What happens if your hap is stopped for whatever reason. Can the tenant still afford said place. If it was a standard tenant and they were let go, they would try and find another job paying similar wages. You can’t say the same about the government as it’s not like you can go seeking hap from another government.

runawaybishop

Graham wrote: »

Why would the outcome be any different now?

You aren't comparng like for like, the op was not asked for what was posted in your example. Also the letting agency gave a ****e defense on what was, essentially, a query.

Dravokivich

Dav010 wrote: »

I suspect prospective tenants are more concerned about securing a rental property than anything else. I would have thought illegal rent price increases would be more of an issue to tenants than this, but rents keep going up. Sometimes Graham, you have to accept that it isn’t black and white, renting is a beauty contest.

It's a service industry.

JustAThought

Fol20 wrote: »

I don’t think HAP shows an ability to pay. What happens if your hap is stopped for whatever reason. Can the tenant still afford said place. If it was a standard tenant and they were let go, they would try and find another job paying similar wages. You can’t say the same about the government as it’s not like you can go seeking hap from another government.

That’s an excellent point -I never thought if it like that. Great to have forums like this where such valid points can be raised.

As for checking that the people viewing have the capacity to pay and are not misrepresenting their employment history or finances - if the LL is asking you then you are a prospective candidate. If they are not asking you have little or zero hope of renting that place - they’re just not interested n bothering with you. Heads up - go prepared.

V interesting point about the HAP and no fallback second government.

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's a service industry.

And only the applicant who appeals most to the landlord benefits from the service.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

I've no doubt you're right but if enough people make complaints to the DPC mindsets and actions will begin to change.

It's an easy enough process online: https://forms.dataprotection.ie/contact

How is a LL supposed to vet the people who he is heading over his property would 100’s of thousands to if all he has access to is a few very likely to be fake references? It’s madness that anyone would take issue with ensuring the ability to pay, consistent income, consistent rent leaving account etc.

You will be asked for banks statements by nearly everyone you do financial business with nowadays, why should a LL be excluded from asking for this.

GDPR is the greatest load of bull that has ever been dreamt up. Also if the LL asks prospective tenants to bring along the statements and he just looks then it’s not a breach of GDPR as he isn’t storing anything.

NuMarvel

Harper Blue Lodge wrote: »

How is a LL supposed to vet the people who he is heading over his property would 100’s of thousands to if all he has access to is a few very likely to be fake references? It’s madness that anyone would take issue with ensuring the ability to pay, consistent income, consistent rent leaving account etc.

You will be asked for banks statements by nearly everyone you do financial business with nowadays, why should a LL be excluded from asking for this.

GDPR is the greatest load of bull that has ever been dreamt up. Also if the LL asks prospective tenants to bring along the statements and he just looks then it’s not a breach of GDPR as he isn’t storing anything.

Considering there are some landlords who are ignorant or rental laws, eg entering people's homes without their permission, it's unsurprising that some some would be concerned about the same group of people being in possession of their personal data.

And you may think data protection is a "load of bull", but like it or not, it is the law and has been for decades, in many countries.

If you want landlords to have the same benefits as other bodies that request financial data, then you're also going to have to accept that they have the same responsibilities as these bodies, and that means treating sensitive personal data properly.

JustAThought

I guess with that attitude you’ll living in your own house-no lease for you. I asked the lsst time I remted out for work contracts & their managers names, LinkedIn profiles & to see their online banking live - fairly successful for me& doable on the spot in the house -no messing &screened out the messers. Made it very easy to make a decision.

NuMarvel

NuMarvel wrote: »

Considering there are some landlords who are ignorant or rental laws, eg entering people's homes without their permission, it's unsurprising that some some would be concerned about the same group of people being in possession of their personal data.

And you may think data protection is a "load of bull", but like it or not, it is the law and has been for decades, in many countries.

If you want landlords to have the same benefits as other bodies that request financial data, then you're also going to have to accept that they have the same responsibilities as these bodies, and that means treating sensitive personal data properly.

Do you not think EAs handle data properly? What are you basing that on?

NuMarvel

JustAThought wrote: »

I guess with that attitude you’ll living in your own house-no lease for you.

Assuming this is directed at me, my attitude is that landlords obey the laws like everyone else.

Thankfully, the majority of landlords don't have an issue with that. But I agree that there are still plenty of landlords out there who do, and they're the ones giving everyone else a bad name.

NuMarvel

Dav010 wrote: »

Do you not think EAs handle data properly? What are you basing that on?

I think the consequences of a potential data breach are too serious to ignore, which is why data protection laws are designed to ensure excessive amounts of information aren't requested in the first place.

I have no issue with landlords or agents taking reasonable steps to ensure they won't encounter problems down the road. But that doesn't mean they have free reign to ask for whatever they want, no matter how much of a renter's market it is.

beauf

NuMarvel wrote: »

...

If you want landlords to have the same benefits as other bodies that request financial data, then you're also going to have to accept that they have the same responsibilities as these bodies, and that means treating sensitive personal data properly.

Interesting...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/financial-services-sector-most-frequently-fined-for-gdpr-breaches-1.4022493%3fmode=amp

beauf

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think the consequences of a potential data breach are too serious to ignore, which is why data protection laws are designed to ensure excessive amounts of information aren't requested in the first place.

I have no issue with landlords or agents taking reasonable steps to ensure they won't encounter problems down the road. But that doesn't mean they have free reign to ask for whatever they want, no matter how much of a renter's market it is.

Consider if you were to pick a stranger out of 100 other strangers to lend 20k of your personal money to. How would you decide which one to give it to.

The suggestion here is that you make the decision first ask for bona fides second...

NuMarvel

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think the consequences of a potential data breach are too serious to ignore, which is why data protection laws are designed to ensure excessive amounts of information aren't requested in the first place.

I have no issue with landlords or agents taking reasonable steps to ensure they won't encounter problems down the road. But that doesn't mean they have free reign to ask for whatever they want, no matter how much of a renter's market it is.

I would have thought agents handle personal data every day and would have pretty good data protection policies in place, have you some reason to think they don’t? You might think asking for some proof of identity and means to pay rent is “free reign”, others would argue that it necessary to reduce risk and pick the preferred tenant. Of course, as Graham so kindly linked, there are guidelines on this and the agent/LL might have to justify the reasons for requesting the info, and accept whatever sanction is handed down if the law has been broken.

beauf

The expert advice is no data held on application so...

LL pick a tenant. Its a guess as no personal data checked.

Get the data. Tenant fails the check.

Can't contact next person in list as they are not holding that personal data.

Advertise it again and repeat.

NuMarvel

beauf wrote: »

Consider if you were to pick a stranger out of 100 other strangers to lend 20k of your personal money to. How would you decide which one to give it to.

The suggestion here is that you make the decision first ask for bona fides second...

That of course isn't the suggestion I made. That might be your interpretation, but I think I've been clear that I only expect LLs to follow the same laws as everyone.

Dav010 wrote: »

I would have thought agents handle personal data every day and would have pretty good data protection policies in place, have you some reason to think they don’t?

...

Of course, as Graham so kindly linked, there are guidelines on this and the agent/LL might have to justify the reasons for requesting the info, and accept whatever sanction is handed down if the law has been broken.

Data protection isn't just about keeping data secure, it's also about what's asked for in the first place. So agents with good data protection policies probably don't have anything to worry about, because agents that develop AND implement a good data protection policy will ensure only the required information is collected in the first place.

Dav010 wrote: »

IYou might think asking for some proof of identity and means to pay rent is “free reign”, others would argue that it necessary to reduce risk and pick the preferred tenant.

Just as well I didn't say that, isn't it? In fact I said pretty much the opposite in the very post you quoted.