How much do you think I should be earning?

Heres Johnny

A bit about myself, I am a qualified accountant with CIMA, qualified financial advisor with LIA and have a masters MSC in actuarial science from UCD

At the moment, I am working as none of these but at the same time I probably use a bit of what I learnt in all of them.

I work as a general manager in a manufacturing and service company owned by a family member (generation ahead of me). He is the MD and probably makes all the hard decisions, advised by me and using info calculated and obtained by me. Company is in Ireland and UK and combined turnover is 20 million euro with 150 employees. I am 38 years old, working here since I am 31 full time, although I always worked here during school holidays etc.

I do a bit of everything, I sort processes, fight fires, analyse the business for decision making, advertise for jobs, interview and hire people, implement IT structures and software, sort the insurances, buy the vehicles and plant, obtain finance and generally assist with the day to day running of the place. I am probably involved in all aspects from operations to HR to Finance to marketing to IT and all in between

I travel within branches in Ireland regularly, based in Dublin but go to Cork, Limerick, Galway and Belfast regularly. Not too often across to UK as they are satellite offices and no need to really. Do about 45 hours in an average week I would say and I know I am good at my job, perhaps not an expert in everything but a decent all rounder.

There is no financial controller, no HR manager, no other IT people apart from outside consultants although we do hire a firm of accountants to do our accounts

What, in the learned opinion of boardsies, should I be earning? There would be a big hole if I left, not unfillable, but certainly I would be missed a lot. Not that I am thinking of leaving, but want to get what i am worth..........I am not a shareholder and I am not sure if I ever will be as I am not privvy to MD and owners succession plans for the business.

MrsBean

I am not well-versed enough in your field to give you a ball park, but the following link might give you an idea of what you could be earning with your educational and work experience, although your particular situation isn’t covered.

https://www.jobs.ie/job-talk/salary-guides/


My opinion on your situation would be if you feel you are not being remunerated adequately then to make a case for it and ask for a raise. If you want to know what your future is with the business then I would ask that too as this will be important in guiding your decision making regardless of what you choose to do. Sounds like you are a valuable member of staff there and hopefully your employers think so too but as the old saying goes.. If you don’t ask, you don’t get.

Fireball81

Try the link above or have a talk to a recruitment consultant.

As a rule of thumb, family businesses are traditionally poorly paid compared to a company you have no connection to, unless you are heading it.

Salary Negotiator

I recently interviewed for a management role in a manufacturing plant based on the east coast.

The role was responsible for all customer service, billing, pricing, graphic design and 1 or 2 other aspects, it reported into the site MD and had line management responsibilities for 12-16 people.

Total remuneration was less than €65K.

Make of that what you will.

enricoh

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

I recently interviewed for a management role in a manufacturing plant based on the east coast.

The role was responsible for all customer service, billing, pricing, graphic design and 1 or 2 other aspects, it reported into the site MD and had line management responsibilities for 12-16 people.

Total remuneration was less than €65K.

Make of that what you will.

Sod that! In the immortal words of Shania Twain - that don't impress me much!

myshirt

You should be somewhere between 50-60 in my opinion, albeit there's probably scope out there for you to get a better salary.

One of the biggest issues I'd have if considering you for employment in my org is this. You are 38 and it has not happened for you. Why?

20m turnover & 150 employees?
Sounds like a low margin business. Only the owners would be well remunerated really.... I'd leave if I was you. I doubt you're paid what you'd get elsewhere

ANXIOUS

Agree margins look tiny, I'd be looking for €85k base, car, pension and bonus (percentage of profit or equity).

AmandaAnn

I’m in a very similar role (from the description) involved in every aspect of the business, likewise I’m not irreplaceable but there would be a big gap if I left. With the company 20 years, based in city centre, it’s generally a nice place to work (think that’s why I’m there so long) I’m on 70k... no other benefits but they are talking about bringing in pensions later this year.

finisklin

Your an all rounder with core skills in finance which are invaluable in any business. The fact that you are involved in HR implies that you have some degree of empathy and able to deal with and manage people. From my experience, these two skills don't necessarily go hand in hand, so well done on having these.



Financial controller roles in manufacturing companies, esp multinationals, go from 90-115k. So that is a good indication if you were to specialise, which is possible.


In your current role, I agree with the other two posters general salary range. However with all perks included (bonus, car allowance, VHI, etc) you should be looking at €100k-€115k.



Most of the recruitment companies do salary guides plus IBEC has one as well. Maybe useful to dig one out.



Though you don't say it in your post, I sense you've lost perspective on what you really want to do and feel possibly undervalued. Is this a fair statement?

Fireball81

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

I recently interviewed for a management role in a manufacturing plant based on the east coast.

The role was responsible for all customer service, billing, pricing, graphic design and 1 or 2 other aspects, it reported into the site MD and had line management responsibilities for 12-16 people.

Total remuneration was less than €65K.

Make of that what you will.

Jesus!

beauf

Heres Johnny wrote: »

.. company owned by a family member (generation ahead of me). He is the MD and probably makes all the hard decisions, ....

You'll never get over this barrier.

Go do some interviews see what you are offered, see if the company can match that if not accept one of the offers. Have a fund built up in case you have to move a few times before you find a place that's suits your expectations. Alternatively sounds like you could run your own business if you could buy someone out or start your own.

Heres Johnny

Thanks for all the replies, I waited a while before responding myself.
My current package is about 70k. I'm not really interested in leaving and doing interviews to be honest, I did leave before for about 3 years and I came back, I like working here and my role is pretty varied. I'm not doing a full HR role, or a full financial control role but I'm being exposed to every aspect of the business. It's my belief I will be eventually asked to take it over and be given a share, although this isnt set in stone.

mickdw

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, I waited a while before responding myself.
My current package is about 70k. I'm not really interested in leaving and doing interviews to be honest, I did leave before for about 3 years and I came back, I like working here and my role is pretty varied. I'm not doing a full HR role, or a full financial control role but I'm being exposed to every aspect of the business. It's my belief I will be eventually asked to take it over and be given a share, although this isnt set in stone.

As is the way with these things, it will probably be handed down to some other family member who will quickly run it into the ground.
I wouldn't hang around on the off chance of getting a piece of the business if current pay isn't what it needs to be.

meeeeh

mickdw wrote: »

As is the way with these things, it will probably be handed down to some other family member who will quickly run it into the ground.
I wouldn't hang around on the off chance of getting a piece of the business if current pay isn't what it needs to be.

Not from my experience. It's in the parent's interest to leave it to the person who has most interest in the company. Sometimes roles are split among few people.

Op you could ask for a share and profit participation or a bonus.

Heres Johnny

I'm the only family member working in it. Won't be going to any others

Still waters

mickdw wrote: »

As is the way with these things, it will probably be handed down to some other family member who will quickly run it into the ground.
I wouldn't hang around on the off chance of getting a piece of the business if current pay isn't what it needs to be.

Why would he leave a fairly well paying job he doesn't want to leave on the off chance it'll be run into the ground in the future, seems like that would be a very silly thing to do

Tell me how

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, I waited a while before responding myself.
My current package is about 70k. I'm not really interested in leaving and doing interviews to be honest, I did leave before for about 3 years and I came back, I like working here and my role is pretty varied. I'm not doing a full HR role, or a full financial control role but I'm being exposed to every aspect of the business. It's my belief I will be eventually asked to take it over and be given a share, although this isnt set in stone.

Get this agreed and in writing or expect that it will not happen (it might, but things can change).

Sounds like you have an enjoyable role and the average hours per week is a positive element of this (would not be the case for many mid-level managers) but I would expect you could earn at least 10k more on open market. I have seen some roles advertised where the money and job description did not match as was outlined in the example above.

I'm engineering, not finance, but have had a somewhat comparable role in similar sized family owned company.

Mrs OBumble

Heres Johnny wrote: »

It's my belief I will be eventually asked to take it over and be given a share, although this isnt set in stone.

You might want to think some more about how this will pan out.

If you're not part of the ownership structure yet, then it's unlikely to be just gifted to you.

It's likely that the owner will want to retire at some point, and release the equity which he (I'm guessing it's a he) has invested in the business. If he sells, you may have the first option to buy the business: do you have a the capacity to raise enough capital to do this?

Even if it is given to you (which is unlikely unless he's been stripping out value to invest in his own pension fund), there may be tax implications depending on the value of business and your relationship to the owner.

And there's a wildcard about what happens if the owner dies before any transition happens. You likely have no idea what his will says. Even if no other family member is involved in or wants the business, one of them may end up owning it - and worst case may just want to get rid of the headache by shutting it down or selling it off ASAP.

mickdw

Still waters wrote: »

Why would he leave a fairly well paying job he doesn't want to leave on the off chance it'll be run into the ground in the future, seems like that would be a very silly thing to do

My point was to get what he is worth and don't spend a lifetime working cheap in the hope of inheriting something.
Indent believe it's his father's business so there are a fair few hurdles between the current ownership and him getting control or management of it.
It could very easily happen that it get left to his cousins who if there are a few might immediately want cash from it.
Fair enough if you like the job and can live with the salary but I wouldn't assume anything 're future.

Boozybooze

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, I waited a while before responding myself.
My current package is about 70k. I'm not really interested in leaving and doing interviews to be honest, I did leave before for about 3 years and I came back, I like working here and my role is pretty varied. I'm not doing a full HR role, or a full financial control role but I'm being exposed to every aspect of the business. It's my belief I will be eventually asked to take it over and be given a share, although this isnt set in stone.

It depends really. If you like your current role, not under much stress, not a far commute from you etc, comfortable on 70K then I think you would be mad to leave.

If you leave for another 30K a year you could have double the workload, working overtime at month end, dealing with endless bull**** on a daily basis.

It took me three or four companies to find the right fit for me as not working for a company who expect you to answer calls outside of working hours, prick managers, constant near unmanageable workload. to do 15 hours overtime every week(Don't mind the odd time when projects are due or something needs urgent attention but not every week),

So the first company you go to you could hate and will have to start looking again.

beauf

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, I waited a while before responding myself.
My current package is about 70k. I'm not really interested in leaving and doing interviews to be honest, I did leave before for about 3 years and I came back, I like working here and my role is pretty varied. I'm not doing a full HR role, or a full financial control role but I'm being exposed to every aspect of the business. It's my belief I will be eventually asked to take it over and be given a share, although this isnt set in stone.

I've no idea what the point of this thread was.

Why seek advice that you knew you'd be ignoring.

meeeeh

beauf wrote: »

I've no idea what the point of this thread was.

Why seek advice that you knew you'd be ignoring.

Because he will be asking for more money.

I worked in family businesses with smaller turnover all my life. I have good friends who took over similar size businesses from their parents. From my experience the business isn't sold to cousins because original owner couldn't make pension provision out of 20m turnover. More often the main issue is original owner not retiring.

Heres Johnny

beauf wrote: »

I've no idea what the point of this thread was.

Why seek advice that you knew you'd be ignoring.

I never once said I was interested in leaving, just about whether my salary was in the right ballpark in people's opinions.

I believe it is fair salary for what I do, and I do have a small commute and not under much pressure.

beauf

meeeeh wrote: »

Because he will be asking for more money. ...

This is one of those threads where the op premise keeps changing invalidating anything that's posted. Which makes it a bit pointless replying.

Some ramblings in an internet forum aren't going to help in salary negotiations. I thought from the original comment he was practically running the day to day of the business. I'm less certain of that now.

Anyone with experience in a family business know there comes point where it's time to get everything down on paper so everyone knows where they stand. Leaving it until someone drops dead or retires usually ends badly. Succession planning etc.

Heres Johnny

beauf wrote: »

This is one of those threads where the op premise keeps changing invalidating anything that's posted. Which makes it a bit pointless replying.

Some ramblings in an internet forum aren't going to help in salary negotiations. I thought from the original comment he was practically running the day to day of the business. I'm less certain of that now.

Anyone with experience in a family business know there comes point where it's time to get everything down on paper so everyone knows where they stand. Leaving it until someone drops dead or retires usually ends badly. Succession planning etc.

I haven't changed anything since I first posted.
In my OP I said the MD makes most of the hard decisions. I also said I generally assist with the day to day running of the place. I also said in first post I'm not thinking of leaving.

Where's the confusion and why the hostility??

beauf

No hostility here I hope it all works out as you imagine it will...

What's your next step...

Green farmer

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I'm the only family member working in it. Won't be going to any others

Many a person thought that and gave their lives to family businesses, only to be left high and dry years later down the road. Get something in writing, to ensure fairness all around.