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Ford Kuga PHEV

  • 22-02-2020 7:55pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ PaulRyan97


    2.5L petrol engine with a 14.4kWh battery, claimed 56km of pure electric driving.

    Looks like the PHEV starts from €43k in the Titanium trim, I assume that's inclusive of grants. Should be available here for July.

    https://www.ford.ie/cars/new-kuga

    What does everyone think?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    PaulRyan97 wrote: »
    2.5L petrol engine with a 14.4kWh battery, claimed 56km of pure electric driving.

    Looks like the PHEV starts from €43k in the Titanium trim, I assume that's inclusive of grants. Should be available here for July.

    https://www.ford.ie/cars/new-kuga

    What does everyone think?

    Wouldn't be for me, they could do far better these days, Mitsubishi have been doing this since around 2015 with the Outlander.

    14 Kwh and what usable? probably less, outlander has 11 or 12 Kwh usable and the kuga can't fast charge, though the outlander can charge at 22 Kw on DC it's a waste of a fast charger, they could have installed a 22 KW AC charger instead.

    Ford can only charge at 3.7 Kw on AC from what I can find, same as the Outlander. Not very good.

    This kind of tech is pretty well outdated by now and Ford are late to the game.

    I still don't understand why more manufacturers don't go the route BMW went with the i3 Rex, large battery "33 Kwh" or "44 Kwh" in North America, and a small Petrol generator when the battery runs low but is not connected to the wheels.

    In my opinion you'd be far better off with a 64 Kwh Kona or Esoul. The E-soul should do 300 Km @ 120 Km/hr based on my test drive or up to 400+ kms off the motorway or at slower speeds especially in warmer weather.

    Kuga ? I wouldn't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus


    It's an expensive car and hybrid and phev are still basically ice engines. If you were in the market for a mid 40k car it's an added bonus but if your serious about saving money buy a 15k car and save 30k with minimal effort.

    Edit: is it still a slightly above average suv in a highly competitive market? Phev aside you won't see kuga in the top 20 best suv lists these days.

    Edit2: as mad lad says kona or esoul can do massive mileage for similar or less money and no fuel bill. Can't see the phev argument. Presumably makes sense for the 5km a day commuter with disposable income who dreams of occasional long trips to the continent??


  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭✭ alanowx


    PaulRyan97 wrote: »
    2.5L petrol engine with a 14.4kWh battery, claimed 56km of pure electric driving.

    Looks like the PHEV starts from €43k in the Titanium trim, I assume that's inclusive of grants. Should be available here for July.

    https://www.ford.ie/cars/new-kuga

    What does everyone think?

    That claimed 56km electric range, are you getting that from another source?

    About half way down the page in that link the article says .."make shorter trips of up to 40 km on zero emissions"

    Perhaps a misprint otherwise this Phev would be outside the criteria to qualify for 5,000 SEAI grant. (minimum 50km required)


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ PaulRyan97


    alanowx wrote: »
    That claimed 56km electric range, are you getting that from another source?

    About half way down the page in that link the article says .."make shorter trips of up to 40 km on zero emissions"

    Perhaps a misprint otherwise this Phev would be outside the criteria to qualify for 5,000 SEAI grant. (minimum 50km required)

    Good point just noticed that. This is from the brochure from ford.co.uk:

    "Kuga’s electric-only driving range is up to 35 miles based on results from the
    Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP). Actual range
    varies with conditions, such as external elements, driving behaviours, vehicle
    maintenance, and lithium-ion battery age. Official NEDC tested CO2 emissions
    of 26 g/km.
    "


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    It's just a way for ford to offset some carbon emissions so they can still sell big engines cars.

    Look what BMW did with the i3 back in 2014, 22 Kwh with small petrol generator, then 33 Kwh for 2016 and 44 Kwh for 2018, they unfortunately got rid of the Rex for Europe because at the time they were scrapping the i3 and didn't want to pay for re-certification for the Rex with the 44 Kwh so they ditched it claiming no one wanted it in Europe, but it's still available in North America. The i3 can also use the fast chargers.

    The Kuga PHEV is expensive considering it's only 14 Kwh and considering the cost of a 64 Kwh Kona and E-soul which in my opinion would be far better cars. I test drove both but I liked the e-soul a lot more. There's a lot of tech in the e-soul and the lane keep assist is brilliant.

    Best Ford can do in 2020 is 14 Kwh and a 2.5L engine, it would be far more efficient to have a 200 HP electric motor and 40 Kwh battery DC charging and a smaller turbo petrol for more range.

    Just a compliance car nothing more and an expensive one at that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    Just a compliance car nothing more and an expensive one at that.

    I’ve no idea whether it’s any good or not but there is no such thing as a compliance car in Europe. Ford’s whole fleet emissions is added up to decide fines. A compliance car is to get access to the market in the US. That system doesn’t exist here.

    i.e Zero point in Ford producing a “compliance” car for Europe that they don’t then sell.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    KCross wrote: »
    I’ve no idea whether it’s any good or not but there is no such thing as a compliance car in Europe. Ford’s whole fleet emissions is added up to decide fines. A compliance car is to get access to the market in the US. That system doesn’t exist here.

    i.e Zero point in Ford producing a “compliance” car for Europe that they don’t then sell.

    Yeah the more they can reduce their emissions the less fines they pay = compliance car.

    They could have just produced a 60 Kwh EV with 100 Kw charging and be done with it but they can make more money from ICE which is a lot cheaper for them to produce in house.

    14 Kwh is just pathetic 64 Kwh EV like the E-Soul or Kona is just so much better.

    Unless someone is regularly travelling more than 350-400 Km in one go then I would not even consider a Kuga PHEV or anything like it.

    The e-soul for instance can charge from 10 - 70% ( according to Bjorn's test ) on a 100 Kw charger in 36 mins which can get the car another up to 200-250 Kms.

    That would be anywhere from 400 from 100% charge starting out + 250 kms = 650 kms.

    Or, 300 Kms at 120 Km/hr + another 200 = 500 kms.

    Charge to 80 or 90% and you get even more range.

    There's no way I would buy a Kona PHEV it just doesn't make sense especially at the cost, if making an engine is far cheaper than why make it so expensive ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    Yeah the more they can reduce their emissions the less fines they pay = compliance car.

    You misunderstand what a compliance car is or you are choosing to redefine it! :)

    They would need to sell thousands and thousands of these to have any meaningful effect on their emissions fines.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    KCross wrote: »
    You misunderstand what a compliance car is or you are choosing to redefine it! :)

    They would need to sell thousands and thousands of these to have any meaningful effect on their emissions fines.

    Don't know why they're making it for then because they could have done a whole lot better than a 2.5 L petrol engine and 14 Kwh battery with probably 11 usable.

    Be very inefficient when the battery runs down and if someone is doing such little mileage then they'd be far better off in an EV anyway especially at the cost of the Koga the Kona and E-soul are ideal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus


    Compliance cars will be common over the next 10 years as manufacturers rush to fill the fashion void of mild hybrid and phev. The recent mondeo estate hybrid has a bizzare lump in the boot where Ford just stuffed the batteries in and carpeted over.

    You'd expect better from Ford but they are in serious trouble. An out of date range, expensive cars with poor design compared to rivals. Jobs being shed. Not good.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Toyota are still making hybrids using NiMh batteries ffs same tech since the first prius in 1998. You couldn't make the Sh1t up.

    The greatest changes since Prius MK II have come from the engine and not the hybrid system, sure they make it more compact and lighter etc but the greatest changes have been to the ICE.

    The price Toyota still charge for the PHEV with tiny Lithium battery is ridiculous.

    Toyota still have 0 intentions of bringing a proper BEV to the market but instead plan a 1 seater pile of dirt to the market in 2021, 100 km range on the Japanese cycle probably 50 Km real range and 60 Km/hr , way to go Toyota you must be very proud ! lol

    Toyota show no signs of letting go of Fuel cells but to be honest they are pretty good at this stage, 2021 they plan 700 Kms again on the Japanese cycle up 30% from previous gen. Refill in 5 mins.

    If only they could make Hydrogen from 100% clean sources they'd be on to a winner, oh and the fuel stations wouldn't want to explode either.

    The company can make more money because they don't need to outsource a big heavy battery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭ JohnC.


    Aren't Toyota working on a proper BEV with Suzuki? That 2 seater is a Kei car, designed for a very specific market.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭ kanuseeme


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    Wouldn't be for me, they could do far better these days, Mitsubishi have been doing this since around 2015 with the Outlander.

    14 Kwh and what usable? probably less, outlander has 11 or 12 Kwh usable and the kuga can't fast charge, though the outlander can charge at 22 Kw on DC it's a waste of a fast charger, they could have installed a 22 KW AC charger instead.

    Ford can only charge at 3.7 Kw on AC from what I can find, same as the Outlander. Not very good.

    This kind of tech is pretty well outdated by now and Ford are late to the game.

    I still don't understand why more manufacturers don't go the route BMW went with the i3 Rex, large battery "33 Kwh" or "44 Kwh" in North America, and a small Petrol generator when the battery runs low but is not connected to the wheels.

    In my opinion you'd be far better off with a 64 Kwh Kona or Esoul. The E-soul should do 300 Km @ 120 Km/hr based on my test drive or up to 400+ kms off the motorway or at slower speeds especially in warmer weather.

    Kuga ? I wouldn't.

    Mitsubishi have been doing this since around 2013 with the Outlander, the reason it only charges at 17 kw is due to battery size, and only at that for about 15 minutes, drops fast to 8 Kw @ 80% I don't know the rate of charge for the newer model Outlander with a 14 kw battery, not much of an improvement I would imagine, 11 Kw A.C would be plenty for both.

    Honestly I think the Rex is a brilliant idea, but Mitsubishi seemed to have gone the opposite way with only a 2 kw increase in battery and 0.4 liter increase in engine size.

    Yes if you want a smaller car and be forced to charge every 400 km then both are good choices.

    I read your airport run would you really give up the Rex?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    kanuseeme wrote: »
    Mitsubishi have been doing this since around 2013 with the Outlander, the reason it only charges at 17 kw is due to battery size, and only at that for about 15 minutes, drops fast to 8 Kw @ 80% I don't know the rate of charge for the newer model Outlander with a 14 kw battery, not much of an improvement I would imagine, 11 Kw A.C would be plenty for both.

    Honestly I think the Rex is a brilliant idea, but Mitsubishi seemed to have gone the opposite way with only a 2 kw increase in battery and 0.4 liter increase in engine size.

    Yes if you want a smaller car and be forced to charge every 400 km then both are good choices.

    I read your airport run would you really give up the Rex?

    At this point in time I’d never give up the Rex it’s just too bloody convenient.

    If I had the kona or Esoul 64 kWh it would greatly reduce the need for the Rex but the problem is there are still far too few chargers and still most sites have only a single charger so the network alone has to greatly improve.

    However, the esoul and kona are just too expensive and I fear depreciation will be massive but that’s no problem if someone keeps it a good few years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭ kanuseeme


    I think a lot of people are fearful of more than depreciation, read any thread here its about ionity maingau card not working/going through 3 chargers to get a charge at a decent speed or at ecars charger being hogged/not working/cannot charge 2 cars at a time/iced/not enough of them and thats not to mention choice most are smallish cars the exception being the expensive ones

    The charging situation will always be playing catch up,

    If a person wants a big suv plug in, now at least there is a choice of 2


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭ Casati


    Is the pricing including the grant? The last Kuga wasn’t class leading but this is an all new model so you’d expect Ford will have upped their game.

    The idea of a 225bhp Kuga that I could run on electric most of the time and in towns, while avoiding the range anxiety and indeed higher cost of something like a smaller Kona EV would make a convincing case.

    Having said that I don’t think that pure electric cars are really the competition for these PHEVs - Ie I’d say the target market is the person considering a hybrid RAV4 or CRV or indeed a diesel Tucson or Sportage


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭ Third_Echelon


    It is old technology and really does show how far behind Ford are... on the other hand, they do have cars of this size and larger that full BEVs don't have.

    The family sized SUV/MiniVan range is severely lacking options if you want a full BEV.

    For my own situation, my car for my work commute etc is a VW eGolf, but the family car is a full size 7 seat version of the Hyundai Santa Fe. I want to replace that for kids with carseats and a big boot space... the only option in ireland is the outlander PHEV i think?! Right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    The Outlander is 5 seater the petrol/diesel is 7 seater, that's if you call the rear 2 seats, seats lol. They'd be very handy for Kids though but unfortunately for us my Missus didn't think about the fact our two Boys being 4 and 5 and half are still in car seats so the rear 2 seats are useless and have been since she got it, but she intends to keep it a long time so they will become more useful when they are out of their car seats. She wouldn't buy the PHEV because she wanted the 7 seats but we can't use them, never could then the Outlander diesel died last year and cost 2400 to get new ECU and all the labour costs that were involved and around 2 months off the road bet she wished she got the PHEV then.

    But there is a void there to be filled, absolutely. There needs to be larger cars that are properly electrified not some half assed PHEV with small battery big engine.

    The problem is that Car manufacturers are still building electric cars like ICEs , motor and electrics up front, they don't have to do this with electrics but for the likes of the Kuga/Outlander there is no choice because they still have the ICE as the main source of traction and can't fit everything in the rear like BMW do with the i3 or VW with the id.3 or Tesla.

    Ford and Mitsubishi could build an i3 like PHEV where the motor is the only source of traction and a big battery and they could have even used a small turbo petrol generator for the times extended range is necessary.

    A 64 Kwh Kona and E-Soul costs the guts of 40K, there's no reason ford/Mitsubishi can't build a similar vehicle and have a Generator as an option but they make more money from having a tiny battery and then a big engine they can make in house and not have to outsource a battery that may be in limited supply in the first place.

    This EV could have "proper" 50 Kw - 70 Kw fast charging capability also.

    If someone needed the space then fair enough but it just wouldn't be for me, when I think about the times we actually need the space of the Outlander it might be a couple of times a year at the absolute most, haft the time it's full of crap that mounts up.

    The technology is there to do much better.

    Imagine an Outlander with 300 Hp Motor and 40-50 Kwh battery and small turbo petrol for extended range ? Fast charge at 50-70 Kw ?

    It's a shame that the Kuga PHEV and Outlander with small batteries and big engines is the best two major Auto companies can do in 2020, neither of them have even got 3 phase AC charging.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    A 64 Kwh Kona and E-Soul costs the guts of 40K, there's no reason ford/Mitsubishi can't build a similar vehicle and have a Generator as an option but they make more money from having a tiny battery and then a big engine they can make in house and not have to outsource a battery that may be in limited supply in the first place.

    Alot of ranting in that post Mad_Lad but I agree with the above bit.

    There simply arent enough batteries to go around and battery manufacturers have the car manufacturers bent over on price. LG Chem appear to be shafting them all with Jag, Audi etc having to cut production numbers.

    Weren't VAG the ones that are supposed to have the spending power to do anything they like with $50b in battery contracts and yet the eTron (which appears to be a good EV) has to pause production due to supposed battery shortages!

    Lets hope their battery contracts for the ID.3 are a little more water tight.

    The incumbents have to stay profitable. A big switch over to BEV would probably sink the majority of them. It will need to be slow and steady unfortunately and thats why PHEV's are the necessary evil right now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,545 ✭✭✭ duploelabs


    Given the option between the Kuga Phev and Outlander Phev, my choice would be the former. I sat in the Kuga and it's new modern and the infotainment is very good. I took the Outlander on a 24 hour test drive and was shocked by the 'fisher price' tech that's in it. Yes it's been out for many years, but the tech inside has aged very badly (or at least not kept up with the market)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    KCross wrote: »
    Alot of ranting in that post Mad_Lad but I agree with the above bit.

    There simply arent enough batteries to go around and battery manufacturers have the car manufacturers bent over on price. LG Chem appear to be shafting them all with Jag, Audi etc having to cut production numbers.

    Weren't VAG the ones that are supposed to have the spending power to do anything they like with $50b in battery contracts and yet the eTron (which appears to be a good EV) has to pause production due to supposed battery shortages!

    Lets hope their battery contracts for the ID.3 are a little more water tight.

    The incumbents have to stay profitable. A big switch over to BEV would probably sink the majority of them. It will need to be slow and steady unfortunately and thats why PHEV's are the necessary evil right now.

    It's not a rant it's a fact, car manufacturers make more money from ICE.

    Ford Install big engine, small battery, they could have went with a smaller more efficient turbo petrol for when the ICE has to be used.

    I'm pretty sure Ford could have installed at least 30 Kwh. The cost of the Kuga is too high for the size of the battery.

    The engine is too big for someone who will buy the Kuga for very short trips, the battery is too small for someone who might use it for regular long trips and the engine too inefficient, a smaller turbo would have been a better option but my guess this was designed more for North American market where bigger is deemed better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,898 ✭✭✭ creedp


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    but my guess this was designed more for North American market where bigger is deemed better.

    and petrol is still relatively cheap


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,898 ✭✭✭ creedp


    It is old technology and really does show how far behind Ford are... on the other hand, they do have cars of this size and larger that full BEVs don't have.

    The family sized SUV/MiniVan range is severely lacking options if you want a full BEV.

    For my own situation, my car for my work commute etc is a VW eGolf, but the family car is a full size 7 seat version of the Hyundai Santa Fe. I want to replace that for kids with carseats and a big boot space... the only option in ireland is the outlander PHEV i think?! Right?

    Its not just full BEVs which are lacking a decent affordable 7 seater option. Unless you want to spend a fortune on an XC90 or Rangie etc your hybrid / PHEV options are also limited.

    Despite the fact that the ICE Outlander's 2 rear seats are a bit limited I would replace the s-max with one if only Mitsubishi had the engineering nous to fit in the additional 2 seats in with the massive 14kw battery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭ kanuseeme


    The New Ford Tourneo Custom Plug-in Hybrid has two sources of power to help your passengers get where they need to be more efficiently than ever. An advanced electric powertrain enables you to complete shorter trips with zero emissions. And on longer journeys the multiple award-winning 1.0 litre EcoBoost engine kicks in to ensure you can go as far as you want. It’s technology designed to maximise efficiency without compromising on the reliability and flexibility you expect in a Tourneo.

    https://www.ford.ie/future-vehicles/new-tourneo-custom-phev

    if you like a transit, small engine, 8 seater option from one of the pictures, range is only 56 km.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭ Miscreant


    kanuseeme wrote: »
    The New Ford Tourneo Custom Plug-in Hybrid has two sources of power to help your passengers get where they need to be more efficiently than ever. An advanced electric powertrain enables you to complete shorter trips with zero emissions. And on longer journeys the multiple award-winning 1.0 litre EcoBoost engine kicks in to ensure you can go as far as you want. It’s technology designed to maximise efficiency without compromising on the reliability and flexibility you expect in a Tourneo.

    https://www.ford.ie/future-vehicles/new-tourneo-custom-phev

    if you like a transit, small engine, 8 seater option from one of the pictures, range is only 56 km.

    If the standard diesel Tourneo starts at 46k I can only imagine how much the PHEV is. No price listing that I can see for it so I'm guessing 50k.


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ PaulRyan97


    Miscreant wrote: »
    If the standard diesel Tourneo starts at 46k I can only imagine how much the PHEV is. No price listing that I can see for it so I'm guessing 50k.

    I would think it would be closer to 60k. Sure I remember hearing something about it being close to £50k in the UK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus


    I wonder how many Irish mums are dreaming right now of driving a toureno?....


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ PaulRyan97


    PaulRyan97 wrote: »
    Looks like the PHEV starts from €43k in the Titanium trim, I assume that's inclusive of grants

    Looking now I realise I was wrong, it's actually exclusive of grants surprisingly enough. This makes it quite good value no? Especially when compared to the diesel Kuga.

    ACfzlFo.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭ Mike3287


    PaulRyan97 wrote: »
    Looking now I realise I was wrong, it's actually exclusive of grants surprisingly enough. This makes it quite good value no? Especially when compared to the diesel Kuga.

    ACfzlFo.png

    35k on the road is pretty good

    only 2k more than diesel is surprising, nice power too 225bhp , diesel a pathetic 1.5l 120bhp unit


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    Thats pretty good, makes it a no brainer unless you are claiming back diesel costs


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