Brexit - any contingencies emerging for wiring accessories ?

Xertz

I’m just curious to know if the NSAI or other Irish bodies are putting proper contingencies in place to deal with BS or other UK approvals bodies suddenly becoming non EU recognised after the Brexit transition periods ends?

While I know we use plenty of harmonised standards, there are potential issues likely to arise with UK suppliers no longer being able to declare CE compliance or drifting away from mandatory CENELEC, EN or CEN requirements.

Is this going to cause issues? I could see some supply chains having to change.

Also, particularly in domestic work, we are standardised on BS accessories - boxes, switches, plugs and sockets. Has NSAI moved to ensure that’s not going to be an issue ?

As it stands we don’t know what the final outcome of UK-EU trade negotiations will be, but with the posturing coming from the UK to date it certainly isn’t looking good.

Moving to continental supplies for many issues isn’t exactly an enormous problem, at least in new installations, but it’s going to be a bit messy if we end up with a reduced range of BS accessories.

Risteard81

The IET are not coming away from CENELEC so an issue probably shouldn't arise, however I'm sure that NSAI have given it due consideration.

Xertz

What's concerning me is more the potential disruption of supply chains. British gear's potentially going to be subject to tariffs and if suppliers don't bother to CE approve, which they may not if they're primarily supplying the UK domestic market, they could become unmarketable in Ireland.

While we'd have no issues with a lot of items, as they're fairly generic or they've always been to continental standards anyway e.g. DIN rail module breakers and so on, there are potential issues for stuff like wall boxes, sockets, switches and so on that are entirely local British standards.

It's quite a different scenario to pre 1993, as white we didn't have an open single market, we also didn't have harmonised rules and the national standards agencies had a lot more leeway to recognise and approve whatever they felt like. That's changed quite a bit.

For example, what's the situation if I wanted to say import and use Australian/NZ wiring accessories here at the moment? That seems to be pretty much how the relationship could end up with the UK.

CENELEC and CEN rules are mandatory within the EU, but they're just advisory beyond that, even where countries are full members. It's only cooperative body.

That's where the complication potentially arrises, where UK stuff may become only vaguely in compliance or may just have a nodding acquaintance with those rules whereas we'll be queried to implement them fully.

2011

Xertz wrote: »

What's concerning me is more the potential disruption of supply chains.

Yup. I think we are in the denial stage of this process.

British gear's potentially going to be subject to tariffs

That is true. I’m sure plenty of people will illegally avoid these tariffs by simply driving up north and hey presto they are in the UK, fill their boot and drive back in the same day without declaring anything.

if suppliers don't bother to CE approve, which they may not if they're primarily supplying the UK domestic market, they could become unmarketable in Ireland.

They will be CE certified. Even if they weren’t there are plenty of alternatives.

The bigger problem is our dependence on the “UK Land-bridge.

That's where the complication potentially arrises, where UK stuff may become only vaguely in compliance or may just have a nodding acquaintance with those rules whereas we'll be queried to implement them fully.

I believe that market forces will compel them to manufacture to the required standards. Nothing else makes sense.

Xertz

What market forces though? The only countries in the EU using BS fittings are Ireland, Malta and Cyprus. Ireland's not a huge market and the other two are miniscule. There would be little or no incentive for UK items to be CE approved, unless they're very specifically targeting Ireland.

Irish distributors could potentially do the required certification, but you're looking at higher costs.

I don't see an issue with internationally manufactured items for the broader 230V market, but Ireland is using some quite specifically British fixtures and fittings.

I mean, with appliances we may end up with the pre 1993 issue with more items arriving with continental plugs, but that's hardly a giant issue to overcome. It was fairly common to pick up appliances here well into the 1990s with CEE 7 moulded plugs due to the supply chains at the time.

2011

Xertz wrote: »

What market forces though? The only countries in the EU using BS fittings are Ireland, Malta and Cyprus.

The vast majority of devices manufactured are suitable for use in a larger market than Ireland, Malta and Cyprus.

Ireland is using some quite specifically British fixtures and fittings

Apart from BS 1363 what else are you referring to?

I mean, with appliances we may end up with the pre 1993 issue with more items arriving with continental plugs, but that's hardly a giant issue to overcome.

As you said not a big deal.

rogue-entity

Xertz wrote: »

While I know we use plenty of harmonised standards, there are potential issues likely to arise with UK suppliers no longer being able to declare CE compliance or drifting away from mandatory CENELEC, EN or CEN requirements.

I'd hazard a guess that unless they feel the CE certification is an unnecessary burden, they'd likely continue with the status quo - bearing in mind - that NI is an anomaly here and for ease of compliance it would make sense to continue with the status quo.

Xertz wrote: »

Also, particularly in domestic work, we are standardised on BS accessories - boxes, switches, plugs and sockets. Has NSAI moved to ensure that’s not going to be an issue ?

Those are codified under Irish Standards, I believe BS 1363 translates as IS 405 for example.

Xertz wrote: »

Moving to continental supplies for many issues isn’t exactly an enormous problem, at least in new installations, but it’s going to be a bit messy if we end up with a reduced range of BS accessories.

As far as I understand, Ireland follows a mixture of German and UK standards, usually taking the most conservative of the two and applying that. We don't use ring-mains in modern installations and use a lot of 16A MCBs for example; yet unlike the continent we limit domestic sockets to 13A and don't provide three-phase power.

Xertz wrote: »

I mean, with appliances we may end up with the pre 1993 issue with more items arriving with continental plugs, but that's hardly a giant issue to overcome. It was fairly common to pick up appliances here well into the 1990s with CEE 7 moulded plugs due to the supply chains at the time.

Perhaps an incentive to permit the use of French (CEE 7/5) or German (CEE 7/3) sockets :P

Xertz

Is CEE 7/3 still permitted here as an alternative to BS1363, where installed with appropriate circuit protection?
Schuko was once defined in IS 180.

Risteard81

rogue-entity wrote: »

Those are codified under Irish Standards, I believe BS 1363 translates as IS 405 for example.

I.S. 401 for plugs (commonly referred to as plug tops); I.S. 411 for socket-outlets; I.S. 421 for adaptors.

Xertz

rogue-entity wrote: »

As far as I understand, Ireland follows a mixture of German and UK standards, usually taking the most conservative of the two and applying that. We don't use ring-mains in modern installations and use a lot of 16A MCBs for example; yet unlike the continent we limit domestic sockets to 13A and don't provide three-phase power.

How we arrived at where we are today is a little more complex than that and we do actually allow final ring circuits, even if they're not quite as common as they are in the UK, where they're basically the default for all socket circuits.
20 Amp radials seem a lot more common here.

Wiring regulations in the early days were fairly loose and that wasn't unique to Ireland. The ESB seemed to, at least for a while, prefer German fixtures and fittings and many homes were wired with Schuko socket outlets right up into the 1960s.

However, at the same time there were houses being wired with BS546 round pin UK sockets and also BS1363 seemed to arrive somewhat by accident too. It wouldn't have been all that unusual to have found all three standards co-existing in the same building.

In the meantime, the UK decided to get rid of the mess of connectors that made up BS546 and replace it with something sane. The old British system had umpteen different sizes of round pin plugs, both earthed and non-earthed and you would often have had no ability to say plug in the vacuum cleaner in the bedroom, as the sockets might have been a different type.

Ireland had the further complication of having Schuko plugs in use which fit some BS sockets without connecting the earth, which (especially in the pre-RCD days) in a 1950s world of lots of metal bodied appliances was very dangerous.

Houses were also commonly full of adaptors and jury rigged plugs and sockets and people plugging things into circuits that shouldn't have been used for heavy appliances and so on.

So basically what seems to have happened was at the time the UK was cleaning up their system by introducing the current rectangular pin plugs, which are deliberately designed to be incompatible with older systems, Ireland opted to do the same.

Hence, we got rid of BS546 and Schuko out of common use, and basically forced people over to the current system by removing backwards compatibility and it took a LONG time to achieve that. You were still encountering old sockets well up into the late 80s and even 90s.

The Irish system may be a little more continental looking in terms of distribution boards and so on, but it has a lot of aspects that are both idiosyncratic to Ireland and a lot that are quite similar to the UK.

But there are a lot more similarities to the UK than to Germany i.e. TN-C-S earthing being very similar to the way they do PME in the UK, legacy fixed wire colours, similarity of types of wires used, fixtures and fittings, preference for single phase supplies etc etc.

H.20v3

It's one of these issues contractors don't get paid to worry about

A directive will be issued from above and that's all we need to know

Xertz

Well, it’s an electrical forum, not just an electrical contractors’ forum, so I guess it’s a good place to discuss things.

H.20v3

Xertz wrote: »

Well, it’s an electrical forum, not just an electrical contractors’ forum, so I guess it’s a good place to discuss things.

Fair point