Speed camera van in pitch dark on the hard shoulder

AVFC.Stephen

Was heading down the M3 a few weeks ago... I was heading to Dublin and just passed the the toll... It was really foggy and in the hard shoulder was parked a speed camera van, no lights on, no signal that he/she was there...

While I wasnt speeding I got curious considering the weather conditions... if I had a blow out and had to use the hard shoulder and went into the back of him trying to steer the car to safety... shouldn't he be visible if parked in an area that is used for emergency?

Normally they are parked up around the area the road slows down to 100kmph, but this lad was ambitious and parked up maybe 1 km from the toll... I literally couldn't see him until I was on top of him (6am very foggy)

I understand they are out to get folks speeding but with no risk assessment to randomly park on the hard shoulder I found strange..


Thoughts?

Dravokivich

What's he meant to do with the fog? It's not in the operators interest to be hidden.

Cookiemunster

I'm pretty sure it's illegal for him to be stopped on the hard shoulder of a motorway. The Go Safe vans aren't immune to the ROTR.

Even the guards have special laybys to park on rather than stop on the hard shoulder.

AVFC.Stephen

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's illegal for him to be stopped on the hard shoulder of a motorway. The Go Safe vans aren't immune to the ROTR.

Even the guards have special laybys to park on rather than stop on the hard shoulder.

Would like to see that... Gard handing a go safe van a fine and penalty points

Orobhsa

Sure they weren't parked in the laybye?

I've seem them here on the 120KM section.

https://goo.gl/maps/ZfhWLShXKViU2pxL9

AVFC.Stephen

Orobhsa wrote: »

Sure they weren't parked in the laybye?

I've seem them here on the 120KM section.

https://goo.gl/maps/ZfhWLShXKViU2pxL9

Pretty sure it was on the bend before the Damastown exit... dont think there is a layby there. Will check again when driving tomorrow

donspeekinglesh

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

Pretty sure it was on the bend before the Damastown exit... dont think there is a layby there. Will check again when driving tomorrow

This is a common location for them:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4221386,-6.4566987,3a,75y,35.49h,81.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOgc9nWgPGinbVl8tyY8njg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Last Stop

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

Would like to see that... Gard handing a go safe van a fine and penalty points

https://i2-prod.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/article8365591.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/speeding-van-2.jpg

GM228

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's illegal for him to be stopped on the hard shoulder of a motorway. The Go Safe vans aren't immune to the ROTR.

Even the guards have special laybys to park on rather than stop on the hard shoulder.

Private speed vans are exempt from the traffic and parking regulations when in the performance of their duties (they have been since 30th August 2016).

Alun

GM228 wrote: »

Private speed vans are exempt from the traffic and parking regulations when in the performance of their duties (they have been since 30th August 2016).

They're not exempt from the laws of physics that apply to everyone else though. Parking in the dark with no lights on a motorway hard shoulder is a stupid and dangerous thing to do, full stop, regardless of who you are or what the regulations are.

Have seen them using the Garda ramps on the M1.

Can they do anything in the fog, though? Does their system work in heavy fog?

Also, in relation to hitting him, you'd be at fault as he could simply be any other parked car. Though at the same time, are they not full of hi-vis chevrons at the rear?

Damien360

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

Pretty sure it was on the bend before the Damastown exit... dont think there is a layby there. Will check again when driving tomorrow

It's always there. There is no layby. They are reasonably visible there but it is the hard shoulder.

punisher5112

Damien360 wrote: »

It's always there. There is no layby. They are reasonably visible there but it is the hard shoulder.

If it's in the hard shoulder and it's a motorway they ain't allowed.

The vans have stickers but are not reflective.

I'd be putting in a complaint, that's pure stupidity and it's dangerous.

GM228

punisher5112 wrote: »

If it's in the hard shoulder and it's a motorway they ain't allowed.

Legally they are allowed.

AVFC.Stephen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have seen them using the Garda ramps on the M1.

Can they do anything in the fog, though? Does their system work in heavy fog?

Also, in relation to hitting him, you'd be at fault as he could simply be any other parked car. Though at the same time, are they not full of hi-vis chevrons at the rear?

If I go into the back of him due to a blow out, and his face is up against a camera in the back of the van.... his next stop is the morgue.

AVFC.Stephen

I noticed there is one of those side posts with authorised vehicles only close to the area he was. In fairness if I was the camera guy and they located me there for the morning or any time, I would be telling them no.

Clear day it's ok of a spot for visibility for the van... but still cars are right next to you doing 120 lol. How anyone could think ah ye be grand go on out there is beyond me.

dowlingm

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

I noticed there is one of those side posts with authorised vehicles only close to the area he was. In fairness if I was the camera guy and they located me there for the morning or any time, I would be telling them no.

Clear day it's ok of a spot for visibility for the van... but still cars are right next to you doing 120 lol. How anyone could think ah ye be grand go on out there is beyond me.

if visibility is that poor and cars are doing 120 isn’t there scope for a court entertaining a driving without due care charge?
It’s a limit, not a target!

AVFC.Stephen

dowlingm wrote: »

if visibility is that poor and cars are doing 120 isn’t there scope for a court entertaining a driving without due care charge?
It’s a limit, not a target!

Hadnt thought about that... but the camera guy is looking for folks that are going over 120...

punisher5112

GM228 wrote: »

Legally they are allowed.

On a motorway?

If it's on a section off of the hard shoulder I'd get that but if that's actually in law that a civilian speed camera can park in a completely moronic and dangerous place then I actually have no words....

I don't doubt you GM as know your up on all that but was legislation changed for that specific reason?

cnocbui

I thought the idea was to target dangerous sections of roads with high accident rates? Motorways are of course the safest sorts of roads with low accident rates. I remember looking at one years stats a while back and could only find a single fatality on an Irish motorway in that year.

Anyway, if a truck has a blow out in fog and pulloff and hits or clips one of these vans, there will certainly be a motorway fatality that year and a re-assessment of placements.

FishOnABike

punisher5112 wrote: »

On a motorway?

If it's on a section off of the hard shoulder I'd get that but if that's actually in law that a civilian speed camera can park in a completely moronic and dangerous place then I actually have no words....

I don't doubt you GM as know your up on all that but was legislation changed for that specific reason?

As the saying goes "The law is an ass".

Heebie

Radar works by sending radio signals then measuring the Doppler shift (phase differential in the returning wave due to reflecting off moving objects) in what bounced back to them. If the fog is dense enough to be reflecting radio waves around, they could be returning from multiple targets at once and making the readings entirely erroneous.

Another vehicle near you on the road, or even a road sign, can cause the reading to be entirely screwball as well, and these defects have more effect in fog.

Of course, the speed camera van guys, and even the Gardai, are probably trained that speed radar is infallible.

Carawaystick

There's 120km limit on roads with no hard shoulders,
Cars have lights to light up the road ahead of them

SeanW

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's 120km limit on roads with no hard shoulders,
Cars have lights to light up the road ahead of them

I'm not aware of any, 120kph limits are reserved for motorway main lines and HQDCs. And yes, cars do have headlights, but they're not as good as daylight. Even with high beams. Low/dipped beams are really just better than nothing.

There's a reason why most road users are prohibited from using the hard shoulder on a motorway for anything other than an emergency or breakdown.

punisher5112

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's 120km limit on roads with no hard shoulders,
Cars have lights to light up the road ahead of them

You're mixing that up with there are dual carriageway with the 120km/h speed limit, can't recall which one but there is.

It's like saying motorway speed limit is 120km/h but then look at the M50 which never went back after the works.

There is no road with 120km/h speed limit without a hard shoulder.

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's illegal for him to be stopped on the hard shoulder of a motorway. The Go Safe vans aren't immune to the ROTR.

Even the guards have special laybys to park on rather than stop on the hard shoulder.

They are often parked in the exit lane shoulder of the M3, just after the toll and in the lead up to the exit for Clonee. They are going to be the cause of an accident parked up there at some point when combined with idiots pulling into the exit lane without looking.

koutoubia

punisher5112 wrote: »

You're mixing that up with there are dual carriageway with the 120km/h speed limit, can't recall which one but there is.

The road between Newry as you leave the north and enter the republic BUT HAVE NOT yet entered onto the M1 is 120kph.

SeanW

But that road has hard shoulders.

FishOnABike

If you break down on a motorway the recommended thing to do is park the car on the hard shoulder, get out of the car and go behind the crash barrier and go back the road slightly so you are not in the target zone for flying debris if something goes into the back of your car while it's sitting on the hard shoulder.

Deliberately parking an unlit vehicle with someone inside it on the hard shoulder of a motorway or HQDC seems totally crazy.

AVFC.Stephen

Maybe laws go out the window with profit margins... good spot for profit = bend on the motor way on a hard shoulder.

Just looking at the N3 at the start of rush hour reminds me of the round about for the Arc of triumph. The amount of cars that are using hard shoulders or going into the entry lanes to get a bump up in the traffic is nuts.

Jem72

Interestingly, the old camera list has no locations listed for "Motorway" in County Meath. My understanding of the way in which the contract operates is that GoSafe are paid to provide a fixed number of hours of monitoring in the approved locations. They are definitely not paid anything at all extra for catching people.

So perhaps the van had actually broken down or it wasn't a speed camera van at all.

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Safety-Cameras/1031-active-safety-camera-locations.pdf

silver2020

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

if I had a blow out and had to use the hard shoulder and went into the back of him trying to steer the car to safety...

What is it and people "ifs"

if this, if that, if the other.

You can't live on ifs.

Think of your "if"

a blow out at that exact spot, you not being able to control that blow out and instead of hurtling into the central median and flipping the car or similar you hit the garda camera van.

Paddypower will offer you 1000/1 on that scenario.

silver2020

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's illegal for him to be stopped on the hard shoulder of a motorway. The Go Safe vans aren't immune to the ROTR.

Even the guards have special laybys to park on rather than stop on the hard shoulder.

Jem72 wrote: »

Interestingly, the old camera list has no locations listed for "Motorway" in County Meath. My understanding of the way in which the contract operates is that GoSafe are paid to provide a fixed number of hours of monitoring in the approved locations. They are definitely not paid anything at all extra for catching people.

So perhaps the van had actually broken down or it wasn't a speed camera van at all.

not sure if its changed, but certainly a while ago, only garda operated camera vans could operate on motorways.

The vans operated by Go Safe must only operated within the defined zones listed on the garda website and exclude motorway zones.

The garda camera vans operated by members of the gardai can operate anywhere.

I'm fairly sure this is still the policy, but am open to correction

Damien360

Jem72 wrote: »

Interestingly, the old camera list has no locations listed for "Motorway" in County Meath. My understanding of the way in which the contract operates is that GoSafe are paid to provide a fixed number of hours of monitoring in the approved locations. They are definitely not paid anything at all extra for catching people.

So perhaps the van had actually broken down or it wasn't a speed camera van at all.

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Safety-Cameras/1031-active-safety-camera-locations.pdf

For the love of God. I know the spot as I regularly had to pass the speed van. It is just before Damastown exit on the bend. It's a 120 zone. And it's on the hard shoulder. The driver has the good sense to get themselves over to the left as much as possible. Just past the exit is a 100 zone which incremently drops to a 50/60 zone as you approach the N3 junction with the M50. Couple of kilometers all in all but an extremely busy section of roadway with a lot of traffic joining.

The people the van is catching are those coming down the M3 obviously but also those that join just around that very spot from the old N3 onto the motorway for a small stretch. The volume joining from the old N3 going inbound to Dublin is very high and they are joining an already fast and a normally relatively empty section of motorway.

Sometimes that van is a little further down on the next bend after Damastown in the 100 zone. Been a while since I saw them to that. The very odd time they are on the old N3 from that junction down to clonee that runs parallel to the motorway. There is a small garage close to a bus stop that they used to stop near.

JamesBond2010

just to blow everything out of the water :P:P on the Ennis to galway motorway.always there

Xwebstar2

Is the operator in the van parked on the hard shoulder?

If he is he's an idiot

Shefwedfan

GM228 wrote: »

Legally they are allowed.

You sure?

They have installed spot for the vans to park, the Garda cars park on exits etc.

They never park in the hard shoulder and they never should, yes I have seen on N road but no my motorways

Shefwedfan

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

just to blow everything out of the water :P:P on the Ennis to galway motorway.always there

That’s not in hard shoulder, that’s off the road

Shefwedfan

Xwebstar2 wrote: »

Is the operator in the van parked on the hard shoulder?

If he is he's an idiot

No person would just park on hard shoulder of motorway unless they have to, even the odd time I have to stop it’s very scary, people seem to think moving over into other lane is impossible so they will fly past at 120kmph a few ft from the car...same person will be hogging the outside lane later on

Be a grand job, though. Bring a pillow and get a bit of sleep.

Would definitely apply to be a Speed Van operative if my current job went away. I'd love it.

AVFC.Stephen

silver2020 wrote: »

What is it and people "ifs"

if this, if that, if the other.

You can't live on ifs.

Think of your "if"

a blow out at that exact spot, you not being able to control that blow out and instead of hurtling into the central median and flipping the car or similar you hit the garda camera van.

Paddypower will offer you 1000/1 on that scenario.

I'm thinking of the risk assessment that may put a life in jeopardy... paddy power and yourself may see it as a sure thing. But if, and yes I say if i was in the van and asked to sit there, I would be saying, jog on

Get in the van with your face to the camera and watch cars whizz by at 120 and tell me you fell safe

Damien360

Damien360 wrote: »

For the love of God. I know the spot as I regularly had to pass the speed van. It is just before Damastown exit on the bend. It's a 120 zone. And it's on the hard shoulder. The driver has the good sense to get themselves over to the left as much as possible. Just past the exit is a 100 zone which incremently drops to a 50/60 zone as you approach the N3 junction with the M50. Couple of kilometers all in all but an extremely busy section of roadway with a lot of traffic joining.

The people the van is catching are those coming down the M3 obviously but also those that join just around that very spot from the old N3 onto the motorway for a small stretch. The volume joining from the old N3 going inbound to Dublin is very high and they are joining an already fast and a normally relatively empty section of motorway.

Sometimes that van is a little further down on the next bend after Damastown in the 100 zone. Been a while since I saw them to that. The very odd time they are on the old N3 from that junction down to clonee that runs parallel to the motorway. There is a small garage close to a bus stop that they used to stop near.

They were there on Friday around noon, just before the exit for the m3 services/Mulhuddart exit.
Don't have a problem with them being there, but their being on the hard shoulder before the clonee/damastown exit is going to cause an accident at some point, especially in the type of weather conditions the op mentioned.

Shefwedfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Be a grand job, though. Bring a pillow and get a bit of sleep.

Would definitely apply to be a Speed Van operative if my current job went away. I'd love it.

Wasn’t one of them set on fire in middle of night once....with a lad in it

is_that_so

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Wasn’t one of them set on fire in middle of night once....with a lad in it

There are a few stories like that from a decade ago.

punisher5112

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Be a grand job, though. Bring a pillow and get a bit of sleep.

Would definitely apply to be a Speed Van operative if my current job went away. I'd love it.

Knew a lad that use to be at it....

He would sleep for the few hours parked up....

Shefwedfan

is_that_so wrote: »

There are a few stories like that from a decade ago.

Showing my age, thought it was more recent but all early 2010/11

punisher5112

Remember in the UK a guy was going around cutting down speed cameras....

Always wanted to shake his hand...

silver2020

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

Get in the van with your face to the camera and watch cars whizz by at 120 and tell me you fell safe

That's not how they work.

Person in gatso van literally sits and monitors that the equipment is working. Entire file is sent to Thurles and a garda reviews all vehicles over a set speed and issues the notices.

I would suspect that the van on the M3 was either broken down or was actually set in off the hard shoulder like in the pics above

Shefwedfan

punisher5112 wrote: »

Remember in the UK a guy was going around cutting down speed cameras....

Always wanted to shake his hand...

Why?

I don’t understand the problem with speed cameras...

If people where not asshats on the road then they would serve no purpose and nobody would bother investing in them. Based on the cost of these devices it seems a huge majority of people are incapable of using the road with any sense....

I have zero penalty points and never had penalty points and I work on the road so travel all over Ireland and Northern Ireland weekly......

I would hate to see the clowns on the road without speed cameras

GM228

punisher5112 wrote: »

On a motorway?

If it's on a section off of the hard shoulder I'd get that but if that's actually in law that a civilian speed camera can park in a completely moronic and dangerous place then I actually have no words....

I don't doubt you GM as know your up on all that but was legislation changed for that specific reason?

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You sure?

They have installed spot for the vans to park, the Garda cars park on exits etc.

They never park in the hard shoulder and they never should, yes I have seen on N road but no my motorways

Yes, the law changed in 2016 to specifically xempt them from any stopping and parking prohibitions (that includes restrictions on motorways), but it's qualified to when carrying out their functions as authorised by AGS, whilst parking in and of itself on a motorway is not illegal for them in such a case, that does not mean it's not stupid or dangerous for them to do so.

Infini

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

Maybe laws go out the window with profit margins... good spot for profit = bend on the motor way on a hard shoulder.

Just looking at the N3 at the start of rush hour reminds me of the round about for the Arc of triumph. The amount of cars that are using hard shoulders or going into the entry lanes to get a bump up in the traffic is nuts.

To be fair thats partially down to the idiot council reducing a 4 lane road at one end to a single lane at the other because the bus lane was originally a hard shoulder and the other end 2 lanes up to the roundabout. Its a deliberate bottleneck because they couldnt be bothered to widen the road up to the roundabout to acommodate the bus lane instead.