United Chessland??

sodacat11

I see that the Irish Junior championships are going to be held in Belfast. No doubt that this is just the thin end of the wedge and it won't be long until the Irish Championship itself moves up there with the smallest entry in years. I did predict all this when the reunification of the two chess unions occurred and I also said that I see no benefit whatsoever for the ICU with this merger. Players from the North could play down here whenever they want and vice versa so why bother uniting the two unions? There are very few strong players in the North so it is hardly going to benefit our international teams. I really don't understand the whole thing at all beyond some outdated and futile nationalist aspiration. Sometimes it is just better to let sleeping dogs lie.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

sodacat11 wrote: »

I see that the Irish Junior championships are going to be held in Belfast. No doubt that this is just the thin end of the wedge and it won't be long until the Irish Championship itself moves up there with the smallest entry in years. I did predict all this when the reunification of the two chess unions occurred and I also said that I see no benefit whatsoever for the ICU with this merger. Players from the North could play down here whenever they want and vice versa so why bother uniting the two unions? There are very few strong players in the North so it is hardly going to benefit our international teams. I really don't understand the whole thing at all beyond some outdated and futile nationalist aspiration. Sometimes it is just better to let sleeping dogs lie.

I could make the same argument about just hosting events in Dublin. Why bother with the other counties. They have their non-Dublin events, we have ours - nonsense.

Your only prediction was that the Irish would move north. Since then, its moved all of 3 miles give or take. The Irish will move outside Dublin sooner or later - as it did successfully a few years ago. Smaller entry in the week long, granted, but a very strong entry and a really competitive event (a first Irish champs norm scored and a huge weekender entry). It might have moved outside Dublin this year if there'd been an application as such - I'd hoped for a Cork or Limerick bid.

You are looking with a very narrow focus. Events around the country suffer when areas on the island "go dark" chess-wise. Ask Kilkenny and they will lament the loss of Munster junior entries in their event. It is not long ago that Ulster boasted several of the top players on this island. Besides, its not all about the international teams or the strength of the respective unions (in my book anyway) - surely the goal is to make chess more popular with bigger & better events and more positive news stories etc. But if it is just strength and internationals you are looking for - well, they would struggle to ever get there without big events which are FIDE rated - since last year, Ulster have FIDE rated their events and will run this IJCC.

Chess will be boosted in Ulster as a result of this - junior players are required to play in one of every two IJCCs to qualify for Irish teams (or play the Irish champs itself) so the event should be able to draw a decent entry.

Connaught hosted their first IJCC in a while 3 years ago and had a record entry at the time - this directly or indirectly led to the Connaught Junior Championships being run this year. Munster had it two years ago and while there hasn't been a noticeable uptake, there are things going on behind the scenes to put them on the right track. The Leinster Juniors had their biggest or close to their biggest entry this year.

I'm not sure I commented at the time on your post about the merger but if I didn't, I guess this mostly summarizes my argument against yours. I will also say that I really hope this gets the inter-provincials up and running again - it used to be a fairly big event on the junior calendar although I'm too young to remember the senior version. Before you say it, Leinster were indeed the strongest team by a stretch back then too in the early-mid 2000s (as they would be now) but we still lost a couple of times to Munster and Ulster who had decent sides.

sodacat11

That is all very well and I accept the points you make but all they do is strengthen my claim that while the merger does benefit the UCU it does little or nothing for the ICU and its members.
Holding the Irish championships in Belfast, Limerick or Cork does little to promote chess in those areas , it just inconveniences three quarters of the entrants who will undoubtedly be Dublin based.
The UCU does not need to be affiliated to us to run FIDE rated tournaments or to promote chess throughout the six counties and I would question just how much of a "boost" Ulster chess will get by having the junior championship there.
I really don't see any benefit whatsoever from the merger except that maybe the ratings will be more in harmony with each other.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

sodacat11 wrote: »

That is all very well and I accept the points you make but all they do is strengthen my claim that while the merger does benefit the UCU it does little or nothing for the ICU and its members.
Holding the Irish championships in Belfast, Limerick or Cork does little to promote chess in those areas , it just inconveniences three quarters of the entrants who will undoubtedly be Dublin based.
The UCU does not need to be affiliated to us to run FIDE rated tournaments or to promote chess throughout the six counties and I would question just how much of a "boost" Ulster chess will get by having the junior championship there.
I really don't see any benefit whatsoever from the merger except that maybe the ratings will be more in harmony with each other.

Again, I think that's very short sighted. "Little or nothing" is deciding the answer before considering any factors. Is 20 new members nothing? Is 50 new members nothing? All players in the IJCC have to be ICU members so there's a direct benefit to bringing these events to areas that don't get enough exposure to ICU events. Generally the IJCC garners about 30-50 new members - with that being on the lower ebb in Dublin (who have most events anyway which people will pay their subs for) and on the higher ebb outside of Dublin (because why would a player in Leitrim pay his subs if he doesn't have an event within 100 miles to play). So there's a financial consideration already if you want a clearly visible outcome rather than intangibles.

If 10 of those say 50 keep it up for a few years and play tournament chess - that's 300 euro extra per event to the likes of Kilkenny, Bunratty, Cork etc - tournaments you play in and like. While Leinster players (and juniors in particular) already have plenty of choice when it comes to naturally progressing from beginner to club to tournament player.

The Limerick (well, Clare really) Irish was definitely well represented by Munster players - I would guess over 50%. Again, if you are thinking extremely narrowly of the masters section; then maybe 75% of those traveled in a 16 player event. But they wouldn't have traveled if they didn't want to play.

You would "question" the boost - based on what exactly? Just sheer negativity or because it doesn't suit your argument? I've already cited the most recent scenario where an ICU event went to an area that didn't have much prior experience of ICU events (Sligo IJCC) and the numbers from that area were great and it showed that a Connaught Juniors was possible. 2-3 years time and those players may become regulars.

Your argument is that the ICU should pack it in and reincarnate as the Dublin Chess Union just because it has more players. I really can't imagine how you think this is a sensible argument. Should we narrow it further to prove a point and say that most of those are south Dublin players? so the SDCU?

Anyway, I've given you the information. If you choose not to actually think about it, that's not my problem.

sodacat11

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Your argument is that the ICU should pack it in and reincarnate as the Dublin Chess Union just because it has more players. I really can't imagine how you think this is a sensible argument. Should we narrow it further to prove a point and say that most of those are south Dublin players? so the SDCU?

Anyway, I've given you the information. If you choose not to actually think about it, that's not my problem.

I never argued any such thing, I don't even live in Dublin.
We will just have to agree to differ and let events take their course but I can tell you that if the Irish Championship, which now (mainly thanks to you) is healthier than ever, is held in Belfast it will attract far less competitors than it does now. Northern players can play in the British Championship so let them hold that in the North if they want.

zeitnot

If the merger induces any Ulster teams to play in the National Club Championship, then it's worth it right there.

sodacat11

zeitnot wrote: »

If the merger induces any Ulster teams to play in the National Club Championship, then it's worth it right there.

And if they win it then all they do is deprive a team from the South from playing in the ECC. Clubs from Northern Ireland could hold their own NCC play in the ECC without being part of the ICU.

cdeb

I don't think any team from the south has ever been denied a place in the ECC. We've never taken up our allocation afaik.

I don't see any compelling reason not to unite tbh. It's the case in almost every other sport; why not chess?

Retd.LoyolaCpt

cdeb wrote: »

I don't think any team from the south has ever been denied a place in the ECC. We've never taken up our allocation afaik.

This is true since rules changed and we now get three automatically, and four on request. Teams did miss out when we only got two but not relevant here. But how can you say they’re weak but able to take one of these spots? Pick one. If they’re strong enough, they should qualify.

Ulster hosted the British and Irish open in golf in the last 2 years and did both well, not sure why they should be limited to the British when we’re talking about island of Ireland unions - also not sure why politics are being dragged in and why it’s being viewed as Ulster stealing a championship or attempting to do so. If they put in a competitive bid (ie a bid which shows ambition, keeps current standards and/or reduces costs to the ICU), then I’d be in favour of it as long as it outshines the other bids. This is what happened for the IJCC - their bid was best. We were not obliged to award it to them and it wasn’t a part of a prearranged agreement.

The Irish itself will only continue to flourish as long as committed people are behind it - whether it’s run by the ICU itself, a club or a provincial union. Having more potential options is a good thing in my book. And no, the UCU have not mentioned, put in a bid, spoke casually to me about hosting the Irish (or NCC) or have any agreements or understandings about it.

If it went to Ulster, I’d probably offer to do what I’m doing this year and recruit titled players or just let them know what I do; and I’d be confident of having 20-25 in the week long.

sodacat11

Holding the Irish Championship in another country is a ridiculous notion.

zeitnot

sodacat11 wrote: »

Holding the Irish Championship in another country is a ridiculous notion.

Ah now you're just winding us up.

sodacat11

zeitnot wrote: »

Ah now you're just winding us up.

The truth is often uncomfortable. It would be akin to the South Korean championship being held in North Korea.
I support almost every tournament posssible every year and the Irish championship is the one that I look forward to most. It would be a kick in the teeth to the likes of me to have the championship taken to Belfast because quite apart from the cost ,the inconvenience, and the diluted entry we would have, it is a city that I have no wish to visit and I am not alone in feeling like that. I really don't see the logic in effectively excluding 15 or 20 people from the championship just to accommodate the two or three from the North who might enter.

zeitnot

sodacat11 wrote: »

The truth is often uncomfortable. It would be akin to the South Korean championship being held in North Korea.
I support almost every tournament posssible every year and the Irish championship is the one that I look forward to most. It would be a kick in the teeth to the likes of me to have the championship taken to Belfast because quite apart from the cost ,the inconvenience, and the diluted entry we would have, it is a city that I have no wish to visit and I am not alone in feeling like that. I really don't see the logic in effectively excluding 15 or 20 people from the championship just to accommodate the two or three from the North who might enter.

All this is hypothetical, since there has been no talk of a bid from the UCU from anyone, apart from you.

I don't get the "no logic" bit, as the Irish Championship has never been a "Republic of Ireland" (or before that "Irish Free State") championship. It has been held north of the border 15 times, I think, including twice before there was a border.

It's not clear the championship has to rotate venues at all (if it's working well, why mess around with it?), but if that changes, Belfast would be as logical as anywhere else.

sodacat11

zeitnot wrote: »

All this is hypothetical, since there has been no talk of a bid from the UCU from anyone, apart from you.

I don't get the "no logic" bit, as the Irish Championship has never been a "Republic of Ireland" (or before that "Irish Free State") championship. It has been held north of the border 15 times, I think, including twice before there was a border.

It's not clear the championship has to rotate venues at all (if it's working well, why mess around with it?), but if that changes, Belfast would be as logical as anywhere else.

The holding of the junior championship there is the first step towards holding the Senior Irish Ch there too. I don't know how many Northern players are rated over 1900, I can only name four, but however many it is they can already play in our championship as well as in the British Championship and the Northern Ireland/Ulster Championship so they are doing pretty well for themselves. I am only eligible to play in one national championship and I would like to see that kept in the country where I live. I don't mind if it is held in Cork, Galway, Kilkenny or anywhere else in the South ( bar the current war zones of Drogheda and Longford) but of course if it is held outside Dublin the number of entrants will suffer greatly.

Ficheall

sodacat11 wrote: »

it is a city that I have no wish to visit and I am not alone in feeling like that

Dublin is hardly a dream destination either..

sodacat11

Ficheall wrote: »

Dublin is hardly a dream destination either..

Very true! but at least I can travel up and down to it without having to stay there.

RooksPawn

sodacat11 wrote: »

... I am only eligible to play in one national championship ....

Actually you (and other Irish players) are eligible to play in the British Championship, if you qualify via an event in the UK or are nominated by ICU.
It may be an anomaly but it's a fact.