Is it possible to have a housemate/tenant removed?

dobby896

Hi, I wasn't too sure where to post this so this may be in the wrong forum.

However, we have been having issues with another housemate in the house. To cut a long story short, he is a pathological liar and goes to extremes to gain attention. While this may sound like a total non-issue, his behavior went to another level on Friday night when he feigned an illness, was screaming and shouting loudly as if he was writhing in pain and called an ambulance to the house. The paramedics knew that it was attention seeking, were very impatient with him and he was diagnosed with tonsillitis in the hospital. The paramedics and nurses were querying mental illness and other psychiatric issues.

While anyone suffering with mental illness will always be afforded my sympathy and support if needed, his is more quite alarming, we have seen the extremes he would go to for attention, even contacting emergency services, and quite honestly, due to his ongoing erratic and impulsive behaviour, we have all started to fear for our own personal safety as we do not know how far he will take it.

My question is, and I'm well aware that this may sound exceptionally cold, but if all the other tenants were to lodge a complaint to the landlord, would it b be within the landlord's powers to ask him to leave the house or do you think we should all cut our losses and either tolerate it or move ourselves?

DellyBelly

I don't think the landlord would be able ot get rid of the tenant for you so therefore if I were you I'd move on myself. Couldn't be dealing with a nutter especially considering they are nothing to do with you (i.e not family)

Sardonicat

I'd go with the advice above, OP. You're feeling in your gut this guy's potential to get very nasty. You should pay attention to that. Involving the LL could bring things to a head. As unfair as it is, you need to get away from this man before you become a target. What age is he, out of interest?

dobby896

Sardonicat wrote: »

I'd go with the advice above, OP. You're feeling in your gut this guy's potential to get very nasty. You should pay attention to that. Involving the LL could bring things to a head. As unfair as it is, you need to get away from this man before you become a target. What age is he, out of interest?

It's just a nuisance as I really like the house, its close to work and affordable (by Dublin's standards). I think he's 25/26, not 100% sure but what I thought was him just being a drama queen at the start has reached new heights over the course of the last few months.

It's quite unnerving especially as I've an aunt with a borderline personality disorder and she set her house on fire years ago, no one died/was injured thankfully but the whole house was gutted.

NSAman

Is it just the two of you (you say “we”)? How is the tenancy set up?

afkasurfjunkie

Can you contact his family?

ShaShaBear

I completely understand your concerns but have to be honest - it would be in your best interests to move. Generally with anyone who is that mentally-unwell, I wouldn't feel comfortable with them knowing where I live if they felt slighted in any way. And if the landlord initiates getting them out, that's when they could dig their heels in and escalate.

dobby896

NSAman wrote: »

Is it just the two of you (you say “we”)? How is the tenancy set up?

There is 5 of us in the house altogether, he shares his room with another tenant.

dobby896

afkasurfjunkie wrote: »

Can you contact his family?

He is from India so we have no knowledge of who they are or how to contact them. However, we have informed another Indian friend who is has over here and hoping they will get in touch. He told me before that his mother is a doctor so I was slightly relieved as she'd be in a good position to help, however, that has since transpired to be another lie, his mother is a housewife.

dobby896

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I completely understand your concerns but have to be honest - it would be in your best interests to move. Generally with anyone who is that mentally-unwell, I wouldn't feel comfortable with them knowing where I live if they felt slighted in any way. And if the landlord initiates getting them out, that's when they could dig their heels in and escalate.

Yeah that's a very good point, safest bet.

NSAman

Difficult situation to be in dobby, and in fairness to you I understand your concerns about his living with you.

what have the other three tenants said in relation to all this?

I know it is not easy to live with one housemate who is a disruptive influence on everyone else (been there in my student days).

The chap obviously has some mental health issues and those can be magnified if living away from nearest and dearest. It may be the only option but to inform family of the situation. If they help then great, if not, the dilemma is exacerbated for you and the other tenants. Kicking the guy out may lead him into a worst situation, by the sounds of it, that is not something you wish to do.

As others have said, moving might be the easiest option, but if the other 3 tenants want the same thing then perhaps inform the landlord quietly as well as having a discussion (all 4 of you) with the chap himself.

dobby896

NSAman wrote: »

Difficult situation to be in dobby, and in fairness to you I understand your concerns about his living with you.

what have the other three tenants said in relation to all this?

The chap obviously has some mental health issues and those can be magnified if living away from nearest and dearest. Kicking the guy out may lead him into a worst situation, by the sounds of it, that is not something you wish to do.

As others have said, moving might be the easiest option, but if the other 3 tenants want the same thing then perhaps inform the landlord quietly as well as having a discussion (all 4 of you) with the chap himself.

The other tenants feel the same way and have all been feeling quite uneasy for months.

Exactly, the reason why we have taken time to consider our options is because we are all quite terrified of doing or something to him which could cause him to act impulsively and harm himself.

Yes, maybe a very quiet and calm chat with him could work. I also found out today that he has actually lost his job (after telling us that the servers were down at his work so he was given paid leave), so I cannot see how he will be able to afford rent without a reliable income.

dobby896

I'm assuming a tenant like the rest of us? We occupy the house on the basis of a lease and not a license. However, the lease is quite short and doesn't go in to detail about eviction etc.

Thank you for the advice, its a difficult situation alright! I suppose the 4 of us need to come to some decision on it, just nervous about what he could do if we asked him to vacate.

TheBoyConor

Then you will have to go the route of having him removed by yourselves.

If you are concerned for your safety then contact the gardai saying that ye are in fear (if that is the genuiniely the case) and they might be able to talk to him and encourage him to move along.

You could apply for a safety order, or protection order. I dunno which is the applicable one here.

Graham

Mod Note

Folks I've unapproved one post from this thread.

To be frank, I'm not sure of the legality of what was suggested.

the_syco

dobby896 wrote: »

There is 5 of us in the house altogether, he shares his room with another tenant.

Did the landlord put them both together, or is one subletting to the other? Check the lease regarding if subletting is allowed.

dobby896

the_syco wrote: »

Did the landlord put them both together, or is one subletting to the other? Check the lease regarding if subletting is allowed.

Yeah they were put together by the landlord, they pay less rent for that room as its shared

Graces7

dobby896 wrote: »

Yeah they were put together by the landlord, they pay less rent for that room as its shared

How does the room mate feel about him?

dobby896

Graces7 wrote: »

How does the room mate feel about him?

The same as the rest of us, very uneasy around him

Wesser

He probably has a personality disorder.
Manipulative and attention seeking.
Can be very difficult to handle

Graces7

dobby896 wrote: »

The same as the rest of us, very uneasy around him

A very difficult situation. Can you explain to the landlord at all? Has he a referral to social services or anyone who can support him?

Maybe call Citizen;s Info or his GP?

TheBoyConor

He is not the responsibility of the other tenants in the house.

The GP will not tell them anything at all.

If he is a lodger or tenant, then the other housemates must find a legal means of having him ejected from the premises with advice to go to alternative or emergency accommodation and emergency mental health services.

If he is a danger to himself or others then the Gardai need to be involved.

Graces7

TheBoyConor wrote: »

He is not the responsibility of the other tenants in the house.

The GP will not tell them anything at all.

If he is a lodger or tenant, then the other housemates must find a legal means of having him ejected from the premises with advice to go to alternative or emergency accommodation and emergency mental health services.

If he is a danger to himself or others then the Gardai need to be involved.

This was to alert the GP as he might be able to put in support.Sometimes it is needful to take responsibility for our actions if we expect others to do the same as is being rightly done here.

TheBoyConor

How are they supposed to get the name of the GP? if he is a foreigner with a mental illness it is quite likely he doesn't even have a GP here in ireland.

Wild goose chase. Get rid of him out of the house legally asap is my advice and then whatever happens him after that is his own business.

Ray Palmer

Landlords are devil until they are needed to do dirty work. Short answer is the landlord can't really do anything other than chat to them.

The reality is the person is unlikely to be a danger to anybody else around them but may be a risk to themselves.

The best course of action is if possible contact his family. With regards to doctors and getting him committed that is not really an option in Ireland. It also sounds like an overreaction.

Some people lie all the time but that isn't really an issue unless you are working with them.

Caranica

TheBoyConor wrote: »

.
Wild goose chase. Get rid of him out of the house legally asap is my advice and then whatever happens him after that is his own business.

He has tenancy rights so how do you propose to do this?

TheBoyConor

Not if he is a licencee he doesn't.

That is the first thing i asked the op to establish - is he an licencee or a tenant, as that will inform the way to go about ejecting him from the house.

If he is a tenant, then the landlord is, in practical terms, powerless to remove him legally as any landlord with a problem tenant will tell you. Then it is down to the other residents to encourage or persuade him to leave. If it is genuinely warranted by the circumstances and behaviour, the others could exclude him from the property perhaps by changing locks themselves. their basis for doing so could be that they feared for their own safety if he continues to have access to the house. This may involve the gardai and a barring order if things get very extreme and behaviour escalates.

It should be noted that in the above scenario would not be in breach of any RTA 2004 obligations as the landlord would not have any part in the process. It is the other housemates that are effecting the expulsion of the problem resident.

If he is a lodger on the other hand, then reasonable notice from the landlord is all that is needed. In the case of a mentally unstable and unpredictable individual that is potentially a danger to those around them, I would consider reasonable notice to be the time it takes for the gardai to arrive to supervise the removal of his things into a secure area outside the house and change the locks.

Graces7

So a ?mentally? ill man is left homeless? When a few phone calls could ensure he has some support.

Simple humanity.

Ray Palmer

Graces7 wrote: »

So a ?mentally? ill man is left homeless? When a few phone calls could ensure he has some support.

Simple humanity.

Phone calls to whom would help? There is not much a person not related to him can do.

TheBoyConor

I did in my previous post tell the OP that they should advise the man to engage with the mental health services and to seek alternative accommodation, if necessary by contacting emergency accomodation support services. And that is as a good will gesture. They are not obliged to do so at all.

At the end of the day, these people have their own lives and responsibilities to get on with. They are not his minder.

meijin

dobby896 wrote: »

Yeah they were put together by the landlord, they pay less rent for that room as its shared

as already clarified...

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Not if he is a licencee he doesn't.

... your suggestion is pointless

Ray Palmer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I did in my previous post tell the OP that they should advise the man to engage with the mental health services and to seek alternative accommodation, if necessary by contacting emergency accomodation support services. And that is as a good will gesture. They are not obliged to do so at all.

At the end of the day, these people have their own lives and responsibilities to get on with. They are not his minder.

He doesn't have to move out or listen to their advice. As you said they aren't his minders and they also can't tell him to move out or what to do.

TheBoyConor

That is true, he is not obliged to leave. That is why it is up to the other housemates to do their damn best at persuading him to agree to vacate.

If they are genuiniely fear for their safety, then they could go down the route of safety/barring/protection order. Barring order would require him to leave the house and he would face very stiff penalties for breaching that order.

Mrs OBumble

If he has lost his job, then likely his Visa is no longer valid.

Contact garda-immigration.




(The suggestion to contact his family, while sweet, is pointless: they cannot do anything, and are likely relieved that he's not living in their house any more.)

endacl

Don't know why a quick chat to the landlord if you all get along and are good tenants couldn't solve this.

"Yeah. Sorry housemate. We're all moving out, so none of us live here any more. G'luck". Once he's all packed up and gone, everybody bar one move back in the following day.

Fccwontletmebe

endacl wrote: »

Don't know why a quick chat to the landlord if you all get along and are good tenants couldn't solve this.

"Yeah. Sorry housemate. We're all moving out, so none of us live here any more. G'luck". Once he's all packed up and gone, everybody bar one move back in the following day.

If only things were that simple. This guy has just lost his job so will not leave the house unless physically forced out or by the courts.

This person well knows it could be a year or more before he is forced to leave and will then just go back to India.

My best bet OP is to contact the Landlord, explain the situation and he will need to get legal advice on what is the best way of getting him out of there and what make financial sense for him.

Keep a weapon in your room and lock it at night.

endacl

Graces7 wrote: »

So a ?mentally? ill man is left homeless? When a few phone calls could ensure he has some support.

Simple humanity.

They don't feel safe living with him and no longer wish to share a living space with him. Simple humanity? Perhaps they should direct him to a cottage on an offshore island, and see how your 'simple humanity' fares out. A phone call could indeed ensure he has some support. PM the OP your number there.

:rolleyes:

dobby896

Graces7 wrote: »

So a ?mentally? ill man is left homeless? When a few phone calls could ensure he has some support.

Simple humanity.

Honestly, the last thing we would want is for anyone to be homeless, particularly a person who is suffering with their mental health.

That is why we would rather he have fair warning to move out, i.e. the standard 4 weeks to give him time to find alternative accommodation. Our accommodation is not obscenely expensive but if you are not in full-time employment, you would not be able to afford it, therefore, he may inevitably have to move along to somewhere cheaper.

dobby896

Fccwontletmebe wrote: »

If only things were that simple. This guy has just lost his job so will not leave the house unless physically forced out or by the courts.

This person well knows it could be a year or more before he is forced to leave and will then just go back to India.

My best bet OP is to contact the Landlord, explain the situation and he will need to get legal advice on what is the best way of getting him out of there and what make financial sense for him.

Keep a weapon in your room and lock it at night.

Yeah this is what we are going to do as a collective. We're all also going to request keys from the landlord to lock our bedroom doors.

Unfortunately, some of his friends here appear to enable the behaviour rather than address it.

Ray Palmer

endacl wrote: »

Don't know why a quick chat to the landlord if you all get along and are good tenants couldn't solve this.

"Yeah. Sorry housemate. We're all moving out, so none of us live here any more. G'luck". Once he's all packed up and gone, everybody bar one move back in the following day.

Which would be an illegal eviction leaving the landlord liable. The tenant laws are quite clear. This is not the landlords responsibility.

I had a similar case with tenants complaining about another tenant. Sought legal advice and the advice was clear that you can't do anything without a lot of evidence. Evidence other than he said he said.

dobby896

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Which would be an illegal eviction leaving the landlord liable. The tenant laws are quite clear. This is not the landlords responsibility.

I had a similar case with tenants complaining about another tenant. Sought legal advice and the advice was clear that you can't do anything without a lot of evidence. Evidence other than he said he said.

It does seem like we will reach a dead-end in any event.

Therefore, I have started to look at other properties in the area to move. Unfortunate, I know, but the only viable option that won't implicate the landlord or jeopardise the safety of myself and this particular housemate.

TheBoyConor

As someone said previous, a trump card here might be that him losing his job could be after invalidating his visa. I would say investigate this option and if it works, get on to Garda immigration and your local garda station and hopefully he they might be able to extricate him from the residence and deport him back to india and let the authorities there deal with him and his illness.

I'll also second the advice that contacting his family is a waste of time. Firstly, they are in india - how are you going the find out who/where they are and contact them? Secondly, what do you expect them to do from 10,000 km away? A said, they are probably happy enough that he is away in Ireland and not causing the drama and hassle in their own homes.

Call gardai, express your fears for your safety. Push for deportation or a barring order.

Ray Palmer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

As someone said previous, a trump card here might be that him losing his job could be after invalidating his visa. I would say investigate this option and if it works, get on to Garda immigration and your local garda station and hopefully he they might be able to extricate him from the residence and deport him back to india and let the authorities there deal with him and his illness.

I'll also second the advice that contacting his family is a waste of time. Firstly, they are in india - how are you going the find out who/where they are and contact them? Secondly, what do you expect them to do from 10,000 km away? A said, they are probably happy enough that he is away in Ireland and not causing the drama and hassle in their own homes.

Call gardai, express your fears for your safety. Push for deportation or a barring order.

Is family may very well come over and take him home or convince him to come home.

The Gardai will not really listen to you as it is one person view over another. All hearsay.

TheBoyConor

Maybe. But they might just as well want to ignore it on the basis of out of sight out of mind, or they may not have the ability or means to come and take him away.

Well if his visa is no longer valid, the Garda Immigration Bureau will be VERY interested in listening.

TheBoyConor

You could take a synergistic approach and use a combination of all three methods mentioned in here to convince him that leaving is the more attractive option rather than staying.

Notify the garda immigration bureau that he may have an expired visa and that ye are in fear of him.

Then after a house meeting, explain to him that his behaviour has ye all gravely concerned and that ye now request him to vacate voluntarily within a week and find somewhere else and direct him to mental health support services.

Then next day brief the landlord on the whole situation and ask that he contact the fella and say that he is satisfied that the current arrangement is not working and that he is requesting him to vacate voluntarily for the good and peace of all concerned, a full reimbursment of the deposit, and again, recommend that he engage with mental health support services.

(note, that there is no eviction here - merely a requesting and strong persuasion to convince him to agree to leave voluntarily)

Then the next day again, tell him that you have heard that the Garda Immigration Bureau are aware that his visa is expired and that they are potentially liable to roll up at any time to question him on his visa and work arrangements.

It would be a very stubborn and individual who would dig-in and stay in a house when faced with that level of unwantedness. For him, just leaving might be a more attractive option than trying to fend off the persuation of the housemates. the landlord and the now omnipresent threat of that Garda Immigration Bureau officers could knock on the door at any hour of the day or night.

Ray Palmer

The suggestion of making a mentally ill person to be paranoid really has to be one of the most horrible things I have ever heard.

endacl

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The suggestion of making a mentally ill person to be paranoid really has to be one of the most horrible things I have ever heard.

It’s not paranoia if they are actually talking about him and do want him gone.

Ray Palmer

endacl wrote: »

It’s not paranoia if they are actually talking about him and do want him gone.

You are suggestion making him believe immigration could arrive at any time to take him away. To do that to a person in a fragile state is disgusting.
Would you put a bottle of alcohol in a recovering alcoholics bedroom too??

It is also totally unrealistic and people do have time to get other employment in their Visa.

TheBoyConor

Look, the other housemates are not this fellas minder or his mammy and daddy.
They want him gone. And for good reason.
He is an adult and what he does after leaving the property is his own business, not theirs.

Ray Palmer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Look, the other housemates are not this fellas minder or his mammy and daddy.
They want him gone. And for good reason.
He is an adult and what he does after leaving the property is his own business, not theirs.

And the legally can't get him out so what are you saying they should do?

pinkyeye

OP, I don't mean to be harsh but it does seem an overreaction on your part tbh.

If you're going to share accommodation you're going to come across odd people all the time.

So far all he's done is call an ambulance and told lies as far as you've told us.

He may settle down, get another job and get help or he may move on or go home of his own accord.

I wouldn't try move in the current rental climate unless things get a lot worse.

You could be going from the frying pan into the fire.