EV chargers and large companies in Ireland

Northumberland

I see there is a Circle K thread on this forum, but not much else where a discussion can take place on what more the 'corporate sector' in Ireland could be doing to support EV use.

I will start the ball rolling by mentioning IKEA Ballymun Dublin, the only IKEA store in the Republic of Ireland. It has NO EV charger at all. IKEA Ireland is closely linked, management wise, to IKEA UK. In IKEA UK there are at least 18 stores, all with decent EV charging facilities, in many of them you can get the cost of your charge paid back if you buy in the store. Their Belfast store has a free fast charger.

I wrote to IKEA Dublin 10 months ago now asking when they would get their act together, and got a nice reply from the 'Country Sustainability Leader' saying that they would install chargers in their Ballymun store, but that was over 9 months ago now, and nothing has happened. In Great Thunberg's words, it cannot wait! I have just written back to the 'Country Sustainability Lead' (if she still has her job - I dont think she should) reminding her of her statement 9 months ago and asking what her excuse is now. Lets see if I get a reply.

JohnC.

Tesco are installing points at 52 stores this year. However, it appears to only be a single point at each store, each capable of charging 2 cars.

pwurple

How are you wording those letters? If it's as aggressive aou have said above, "what's your excuse" etc, then the normal reaction would be to tell you to go swing.

Northumberland

JohnC. wrote: »

Tesco are installing points at 52 stores this year. However, it appears to only be a single point at each store, each capable of charging 2 cars.

Great, and great to add that to this Thread. Chargers for 2 cars is a lot better than nothing, as I think someone else commented when this info was shared on another thread. Tesco is beating some of their competitors at this. Lidl of course has SOME chargers at SOME of it's stores, but seems to have odd criteria for which type of charger to put where. Virginia, which is surrounded by a lot of far flung rural areas, only has a slow charger. Other Lidl stores have fast chargers. Aldi seem not to have cottoned on yet. Come on Aldi - where are you?

Northumberland

pwurple wrote: »

How are you wording those letters? If it's as aggressive aou have said above, "what's your excuse" etc, then the normal reaction would be to tell you to go swing.

The full text of my most recent email is below. Yes, you have a point, but if they tell me to go swing, at least they will be clear. This is the third polite exchange I have had with them over a 10 month period. You cant tell me that if IKEA really wanted to do something they could not do it within 10 months. I am sure that their excuse will be all linked up to the deal that they have done for chargers at stores with Ecotricity in the UK, and the fact that Ecotricity are not active in Ireland, so perhaps they are waiting for Ecotricity to get established in Ireland so they can apply the same deal with them that they have in UK.

COPY OF LETTER TO IKEA SENT TODAY
To Alison Sheridan, Country Sustainability Leader, IKEA Ireland Limited.

Hi Ali,

I was at IKEA Ballymun, Dublin last Friday, 24th January 2020 with my Nissan Leaf, having driven down 130 km from my home in Belturbet, Co. Cavan, and I arrived with little driving range left. I looked for the electric car charger that you told me would be installed there 9 months ago, but I could not find it. After shopping I had to drive slowly on to Dublin Airport and wait for the single fast charger outside the McDonalds there to become available so I could get back home with my shopping. In those 9 months ownership of ‘all electric’ vehicles in Ireland has rocketed, but IKEA Dublin does not appear to welcome those owners or their families, at least those living outside the M50, in marked contrast to each of your 18 stores in the UK, including your Belfast store, which have EV fast chargers installed. Why does your single store in the Republic of Ireland, which I understand to be linked to your UK operation, not provide it’s customers with the same facilities as your UK stores in terms of access to EV chargers?

I read the email you sent me dated May 6th last year, over 9 months ago, in which you stated that you would be installing EV chargers at your Ballymun stores in the near future. How many months does the “near future” consist of in your understanding of that term? When will chargers be installed at Ballymun?, what is the excuse for not doing this until now?

Northumberland

Having chargers in Tesco and Lidl's is good, but they will probably be mostly hogged by hybrid users trying to save a euro's worth of diesel. The real challenge to me is to ensure that there are decent fast chargers at destinations that people from all over Ireland want or need to get to. Dublin Airport is obviously a prime example (welcome to the chaos around the taxis parked next to McDonalds and quite far away from the terminals. IKEA is a second example, already mentioned.

The Explorium 'National Sport and Science Centre' is another example - a place recently opened, obviously not cheap to build, but trying (fairly successfully in my view) to show off cutting edge science etc to children and young people. But oh now, they forgot to put in any ev charging points! You really can not get to that place without a car, and, if you are trying to get to it from outside the M50, you had better go there with an ICE car! It is way up in the hills above Sandyford, no regular bus. The nearest chargers (slow I think) are at the LUAS Park and ride at Sandyford or nearby. How on earth can the designers/operators/managers of such a 'national centre' have simply forgotten to fix some charging points, and this place was built just a year or two ago!

Northumberland

Here is the text of my email sent to info@explorium.ie on June 7th 2019. At least I got replies from IKEA, this was just filed in the trash by Explorium, not considered worthy of any reply by them..

"When will electric car charge poin be installed at Explorium?

I took my 5 year old to Explorium Junior yesterday, she had a fantastic time. We drove down from Cavan specifically for the visit in our all Electric car. I was disappointed NOT TO FIND ANY CHARGERS FOR ELECTRIC CARS in the Explorium car park, which I suggest is an oversight for a bright new centre dedicated to science and the future. Explorium is not easy to get to by public transport, and our travel problems were compounded by the nearest fast e-car charger operated by ESB at Stillorgan Luas Park and Ride being out of order for many weeks.

Come on Explorium, get with the future, install a few e-car charging points! (even many Lidl supermarkets have them - unfortunately no Lidl close to Explorium!)

David Alnwick
Belturbet
Co. Cavan"

Dont be at yourself

That sort of entitled tone really does people no favours. It’s not private enterprise’s job to provide public infrastructure, and having a strop at them is unlikely to convince them.

Northumberland

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

That sort of entitled tone really does people no favours. It’s not private enterprise’s job to provide public infrastructure, and having a strop at them is unlikely to convince them.

What do you suggest then? sing them a song? write a little poem to them?

Lumen

Northumberland wrote: »

What do you suggest then? sing them a song? write a little poem to them?

Maybe drop the all caps, it makes you seem a bit mental.

Dont be at yourself

Northumberland wrote: »

What do you suggest then? sing them a song? write a little poem to them?

I’d write them a polite email, express interest in an EV charger, outline the rational business case, and leave it at that.

kaahooters

ok, ive a better question.

why should any company provide ev charging points?

ELM327

kaahooters wrote: »

ok, ive a better question.

why should any company provide ev charging points?

Two reasons:
Green image (perhaps related to ISO standards)
Attract customers (negligible , given low EV takeup)

Northumberland

Commenting about the announcement [of a commitment to install chargers at uk stores], Joanna Yarrow, Head of Sustainability IKEA UK and Ireland said: “At IKEA we believe Electric Vehicles have a significant part to play in a more sustainable future. We know that our customers want to live more sustainably and that extends to how they get to and from our stores. By installing more charging points and strengthening the infrastructure nationally, we believe we can start to tackle one of the major barriers to using electric cars which is the fear of not finding a convenient place to charge the car.”

September1

I contacted IKEA about charging in November 2012 and still no response ;-)

pwurple

Northumberland wrote: »

What do you suggest then? sing them a song? write a little poem to them?

Inquire politely.

The sense of entitlement in your email bothers me, and I have two electric vehicles. I've suggested chargers be installed in workplaces, shopping centers and apartment carparks, and in about 50% of cases, it has happened.

A more productive method I find, is to make it exceptionally easy for them and be helpful. Provide the contact details for local suppliers for example.

User1998

Northumberland wrote: »

Aldi seem not to have cottoned on yet. Come on Aldi - where are you?

Aldi have been installing chargers in their brand new stores and will be installing chargers in their existing stores this year

NIMAN

The thing to remember about big companies like IKEA etc is that they rarely do things that will cost them money for ethical reasons. There will always be a commercial decision underlying it, no matter how green they pretend to be.

If it was commercially viable for all the big retailers to have ev points installed, it would already be done. It simply isn't and they have obviously made the conscious decision not to bother, because I'm sure it had come up for discussion in meetings at a relatively high level for the past 5 years or more.

Once a few start doing it, others will follow but for now I wouldn't hold my breath.

bucketybuck

If I got one of those letters I would probably throw it in the bin as well.

unkel

Slow chargers at the likes of Tesco are completely useless. So you pick up 3kWh doing your half an hour weekly shop? That's €0.25 cent saved and barely a noticeably distance in the range of your EV

Now Ikea would be a much better location, particularly for the people who live well outside the Dublin area visiting the store. I'd say on average those people would easily be there for 3 hours (and have something to eat), so nearly a full charge on a smaller capacity EV and enough to go all the way back home to Cavan (130km) like the OP

ELM327

bucketybuck wrote: »

If I got one of those letters I would probably throw it in the bin as well.

Same

unkel wrote: »

Slow chargers at the likes of Tesco are completely useless. So you pick up 3kWh doing your half an hour weekly shop? That's €0.25 cent saved and barely a noticeably distance in the range of your EV

Now Ikea would be a much better location, particularly for the people who live well outside the Dublin area visiting the store. I'd say on average those people would easily be there for 3 hours (and have something to eat), so nearly a full charge on a smaller capacity EV and enough to go all the way back home to Cavan (130km) like the OP

If they have 22kW pedestal SCP units, like most destination chargers seem to be here, then a car with 3 phase could get a lot in 3 hours at an Ikea trip. My own record is 15 minutes from entry to exit, but that was alone, with herself it's more likely to be 3-4 hours including the mandatory meatball stop! 4 hours at 11-12kW (my car's limit, depending on the voltage it can be ~12kW) would give over 50% charge.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

My own record is 15 minutes from entry to exit

4 minutes to get in and park, 2 minutes to walk to the small section tills, 2 minute to grab the frozen meatballs and pay for them, 2 minutes to walk back to the car and 5 minutes to get back out onto the M50?

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

4 minutes to get in and park, 2 minutes to walk to the small section tills, 2 minute to grab the frozen meatballs and pay for them, 2 minutes to walk back to the car and 5 minutes to get back out onto the M50?

Park, run in past the checkouts, go to the collection section (having checked online where the item is, no need to walk through the store), go to the checkout, leave, done. Skip the meatballs.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Skip the meatballs.

Damn, might have been worth an extra few minutes of your time to grab them

knifey_spoonie

Long time lurker on the EV forum, but the sense of self entitlement here is terrible.

You choose to be an early adopter of new technology and now feel that others should move to suit your needs. If your chosen vehicle is not suitable to complete a journey then you need to change the vehicle used or your expectations, you cannot expect a third party to go to considerable cost to facilitate such a small demographic.

Then others have the opinion that even where a business have gone to the expense of installing chargers, that unless they are 3ph 22kw units that they are pointless. You really have proven the point of self entitlement of some EV owners.

Has anyone ever looked at the cost of installing a 22kw charger, you are looking at thousands in cable alone, then you have trenching, ground works and the cost of a charging point, all that presumes they then don't need to get a MIC upgrade from ESB networks.

Business exist to make money, you cannot expect them to make a non commercially viable decision, you should take it as a bonus where private a entity installs a charging point, not a divine right.

Northumberland

but you may be slightly missing the point I made above about IKEA. The IKEA operation in Ireland is largely just run as one more store out of their UK base, together with their 18 or more stores in the UK. They have a 'Head of sustainability for IKEA in UK and Ireland'. They started installing chargers in the UK in 2013 and now all of their stores are equipped. So it made good business sense in the UK, including up in Belfast, but it did not make good business sense in Dublin for some reason or other. Perhaps, as I suggested in an earlier email, it is simply that they have done a deal with Ecotrictity UK, but Ecotricity does not operate in the Republic, and they are not prepared to put the time or effort in to find an alternative. With a bit of pressure, or more polite requests from more customers, they might put a bit more effort in to trying.

Northumberland

I do take it as a bonus, and drive up to IKEA in Belfast and do my shopping there, and use their fast charger, and am quite happy, entitled perhaps! I just wonder why the same company, run by the same people, chooses not to make the same available in Dublin.

ELM327

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

Long time lurker on the EV forum, but the sense of self entitlement here is terrible.

You choose to be an early adopter of new technology and now feel that others should move to suit your needs. If your chosen vehicle is not suitable to complete a journey then you need to change the vehicle used or your expectations, you cannot expect a third party to go to considerable cost to facilitate such a small demographic.

Then others have the opinion that even where a business have gone to the expense of installing chargers, that unless they are 3ph 22kw units that they are pointless. You really have proven the point of self entitlement of some EV owners.

Has anyone ever looked at the cost of installing a 22kw charger, you are looking at thousands in cable alone, then you have trenching, ground works and the cost of a charging point, all that presumes they then don't need to get a MIC upgrade from ESB networks.

Business exist to make money, you cannot expect them to make a non commercially viable decision, you should take it as a bonus where private a entity installs a charging point, not a divine right.

We have 3 22kW units (six sockets) at work. The cost was less than 1 k per unit including all costs. All of which is reclaimable under ACCA.


Most businesses will already have 3 phase electricity and excess MIC.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

We have 3 22kW units (six sockets) at work. The cost was less than 1 k per unit including all costs.

That sounds too good to be true. €1k all-in per unit?!

The units themselves are in excess of €1k before you even open a box. What make of units do ye have?

Installation would be on top of that and would generally be more than a domestic scenario as you may have to dig trenches, use armoured cable etc.

I've seen commercial quotes for 22kW chargers at the €3k-€5k mark.

kaahooters

Northumberland wrote: »

I do take it as a bonus, and drive up to IKEA in Belfast and do my shopping there, and use their fast charger, and am quite happy, entitled perhaps! I just wonder why the same company, run by the same people, chooses not to make the same available in Dublin.

theres not enough demand for it. simple.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

That sounds too good to be true. €1k all-in per unit?!

The units themselves are in excess of €1k before you even open a box. What make of units do ye have?

Installation would be on top of that and would generally be more than a domestic scenario as you may have to dig trenches, use armoured cable etc.

I've seen commercial quotes for 22kW chargers at the €3k-€5k mark.

Rolec units

The units were not in excess of 1k, they are available for below 1k even as a private individual. I do think we got a good deal for buying 3 but still.


The wires were already there, we already have 3ph installed. So net cost to company is 0, thanks to ACCA.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Rolec units

The units were not in excess of 1k, they are available for below 1k even as a private individual. I do think we got a good deal for buying 3 but still.


The wires were already there, we already have 3ph installed. So net cost to company is 0, thanks to ACCA.

Wall mounted would be a little less than €1k to buy alright and probably simpler to install. Your link shows €775. The pedestal is €1k which is what I have experience with.

Either way, ye got some deal to get them installed for €1k all-in. Not much profit there. Simple domestic installs are costing more.

And ACA doesn’t make it free, it just means they can write it down against profit in year 1 rather than over 8 years. They still have to pay for it but fair play on the price.

As I said, I’ve seen quotes for €5k+ on a pedestal install that required trenching and armoured cable so I guess it very much depends on the layout of the site.

KCross

Northumberland wrote: »

I do take it as a bonus, and drive up to IKEA in Belfast and do my shopping there, and use their fast charger, and am quite happy, entitled perhaps! I just wonder why the same company, run by the same people, chooses not to make the same available in Dublin.

Bob Flavin said in his recent video that IKEA Dublin are installing 3 charge points this year. No idea how reliable that info is but I presume he has it on some authority.

ELM327

Wonder if they are easygo? They seem on a mad expansion buzz

kennethsmyth

Northumberland wrote: »

After shopping I had to drive slowly on to Dublin Airport and wait for the single fast charger outside the McDonalds there to become available so I could get back home with my shopping.

Hi I would of used the fast charger at the circle k just off the r139 at end of M50/M1 Junction - less likely for chaos

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Wonder if they are easygo? They seem on a mad expansion buzz

No idea, he didn’t say. Don’t know if it’s slow or rapid chargers either. I presume it’s slow as a rapid would be under utilised and just hogged.

Easygo would make sense alright though.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

No idea, he didn’t say. Don’t know if it’s slow or rapid chargers either. I presume it’s slow as a rapid would be under utilised and just hogged.

Banks of 7-22kW units would be much better than 1 rapid as you'll never get out of Ikea in 30-45 minutes (watch out, rampant sexism incoming) with a female in tow.

Orebro

God above, the sense of entitlement in those emails is embarrassing.

Clareman

Just spotted this thread on the main page.

Why should private businesses supply charging points, they don't supply petrol/diesel pumps for other vehicles. I always thought it was the responsibility of the vehicle owner to have enough fuel for their journey not the destination.

kanuseeme

Complains about hybrids saving a euro, then wants a company to spend 1000's so he can save 16 euro, ( diesel @ 4.5 l/100km @1.35 euro)

Clareman

kanuseeme wrote: »

Complains about hybrids saving a euro, then wants a company to spend 1000's so he can save 16 euro, ( diesel @ 4.5 l/100km @1.35 euro)

Not helping the Cavan stereotype....

zg3409

JohnC. wrote: »

Tesco are installing points at 52 stores this year. However, it appears to only be a single point at each store, each capable of charging 2 cars.

Tesco is nationwide deal with esb to be a site for 22kw chargers. A bit pointless but many tesco stores have ample parking and esb have struggled to get sites for chargers.

Aldi have one or two, see plugshare app in Glenageary Dublin.

All lidl are slow/22kw except for one fast 50kw triple head in Drogheda.

I put lots on non esb chargers on plugshare app, with lots of unusual sites.

In terms of chargers Tesla will provide destination chargers for free to hotels and other public places for public charging if you don't charge a fee, and if one of the chargers in Tesla only. The premises need to pay installation and pay for power.

I suspect a lot of the cost of commercial installations that have a fee is the billing system, sim card, phone app, phone support

kanuseeme

I like Cavan people, I hope there will be banks of slow chargers every place you could think of, but its the double standards that some apply to others that I have to complain about.

knifey_spoonie

ELM327 wrote: »

We have 3 22kW units (six sockets) at work. The cost was less than 1 k per unit including all costs. All of which is reclaimable under ACCA.


Most businesses will already have 3 phase electricity and excess MIC.

Well your example isn't really representative of most situations. I received quotes of €4000 just to supply and install a 7.2KW wall charger.

If you take into account the position you are going to install these points is generally in a car parks, and normally pedestal mounts.(reduces trip hazard of cables trailing from wall to parking space) With even a conservative 100m cable run from fuse board to charger is going to require 16sq 5 core SWA cable which is €8-€10 per M, larger runs will not only require more cable but also larger diameter cable.

A €1000 charger is not going to have the ability to accept payment so now not only is a business going to have to spend considerably to install the chargers they are also expected to supply free fuel in the form of electricity.

Northumberland

the users of the 'other vehicles' do not need to sit an hour at the petrol pumps.

KCross

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

A €1000 charger is not going to have the ability to accept payment so now not only is a business going to have to spend considerably to install the chargers they are also expected to supply free fuel in the form of electricity.

The 22kW Rolec pedestal has a payment option built in. That pedestal is around the €1k mark so it can be done.

I agree with the rest of your post, it matches the quotes I saw too.

ELM327

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

Well your example isn't really representative of most situations. I received quotes of €4000 just to supply and install a 7.2KW wall charger.

If you take into account the position you are going to install these points is generally in a car parks, and normally pedestal mounts.(reduces trip hazard of cables trailing from wall to parking space) With even a conservative 100m cable run from fuse board to charger is going to require 16sq 5 core SWA cable which is €8-€10 per M, larger runs will not only require more cable but also larger diameter cable.

A €1000 charger is not going to have the ability to accept payment so now not only is a business going to have to spend considerably to install the chargers they are also expected to supply free fuel in the form of electricity.

Ours are pedestals.

innrain

Why assume the charging should be free?
In the Explorium case I understand the OP frustration. When you want to show the cutting edge you need to be cutting edge. Nobody says it should be free make it 0.79/kWh but make it available. You speak about Nikolai Tesla, how he wanted to give free electricity to everyone, you can link with a Tesla charger

I think this is the place of a formal association (ex. IEVOA), which can show the opportunities, business and PR, for installing such chargers on their premises. Also the private operators in the business should have their scouts.
Things will change when there will be laws in place to make it compulsory to have them in the planning application phase. 2021 for new and major upgrades?

Shaming is for the government run/funded institutions. They should lead by example. Universities, colleges, they should educate the public. They have the expertise on the ground.
Climate Action Council is made up from members from these organizations. With the exception of UCD,UL what other university has chargers in their carparks for students or staff? DCU has 1400 spaces in their Glasnevin campus but no one single charger. UCC, UG. These are carkparks with a lot of exposure to public. They can be used to raise awareness. Well if you really want to get to 1 million cars. Again nothing should be free.

zg3409

innrain wrote: »

what other university has chargers in their carparks for students or staff? DCU has 1400 spaces in their Glasnevin campus but no one single charger. UCC, UG. These are carkparks with a lot of exposure to public. They can be used to raise awareness. Well if you really want to get to 1 million cars. Again nothing should be free.

Sligo IT has new chargers marked on plugshare but no check in yet. DCU have staff only chargers, they were on plugshare but someone removed them from the app. DCU alpha has chargers for visitors, not shown on plugshare, and a company that makes chargers. Waterford IT has an esb 22kw in the car park, shown on plugshare, replaced with a brand new unit this week.

Crazy high fess mean chargers may never be used not even by those parking there every day. Free chargers typically work more reliably and have less to go wrong.

innrain

zg3409 wrote: »

Sligo IT has new chargers marked on plugshare but no check in yet. DCU have staff only chargers, they were on plugshare but someone removed them from the app. DCU alpha has chargers for visitors, not shown on plugshare, and a company that makes chargers. Waterford IT has an esb 22kw in the car park, shown on plugshare, replaced with a brand new unit this week.

Crazy high fess mean chargers may never be used not even by those parking there every day. Free chargers typically work more reliably and have less to go wrong.

The .79 was a tongue in cheek. Of course nobody wants that but free is abused.

DCU alpha is a commercial entity separate from the University itself and in a different location.

DCU does not have chargers for staff or students. The only charger (a 3.7kW) in Glasnevin campus is owned by the cleaning company which is an external contractor. Nobody else has access. Maybe this is the reason it has been removed.

My point is that there is just a few examples of chargers where should be lots. Nothing in Trinity, UCC which have large population of staff and students. In fairness, Trinity is exposed to public transport better than others. DCU has Helix beside it which again is a major event hub with lot of exposure to public.

Should the government be promoting EV driving and installing charge points at govt buildings for workers and visiting public, schools, hospitals etc?