PHEV and public charge points

whippet

i've bitten the bullet and have ordered a PHEV - BMW 330e.

Its the right car for me now - as most days it will only be used for about 30km or so.

I will be sorting out a wall box at home when it arrives. However, i've been thinking about how realistic it is with public charging.

I don't envision using charging points all that often .. but with it only being a slow charge - about3.5 hours for a full charge - how would that go down with the rest of EV community?

I have been looking at the ESB site with regards to costs for charging and I can't seem to get my head around it - wondering if it is actually worth it for the 40km range that I would get from it.

From what I can make out on the EBS site the standard charge points are still 'free' - or am I totally wrong ? and the fast chargers are of no use to me as the BMW doesn't support fast charging.

is there a time limit on how long you can charge for?

I'm conscious that these are probably stupid questions but it is a wee bit confusing

ELM327

At the moment the SCP chargers are free, and a free for all.
Some BEV owners will complain at phevs using them but as it is theres no rule against it

Sigma101

Charging at the SCPs is free - for now. There are no time limits or penalties. Bear in mind you may need to pay parking charges, depending on the SCP location and the time of day. You'll need to register with ecars to get a card. Sign up using the pay-as-you -go option for now, i.e. no monthly charges. As a BEV driver I think it's good etiquette to use free public SCPs only when you need to (i.e. never - regardless of whether it's BEV or PHEV) but you're perfectly entitled to. If the ESB bring in charges on the SCPs later in the year (and they plan to) this issue will sort itself out.

whippet

Sigma101 wrote: »

As a BEV driver I think it's good etiquette to use free public SCPs only when you need to (i.e. never - regardless of whether it's BEV or PHEV) but you're perfectly entitled to. If the ESB bring in charges on the SCPs later in the year (and they plan to) this issue will sort itself out.

Cool ... cheers for the info.

I don't envision ever seeking out a point - but if I do happen to be parking up where there is one why not get a little juice to go

KCross

whippet wrote: »

Cool ... cheers for the info.

I don't envision ever seeking out a point - but if I do happen to be parking up where there is one why not get a little juice to go

Just make sure you are seeking out the right ones (slow "Type 2" charge points) not the rapid chargers.

The places you are most likely to charge the PHEV are at hotels, multi-storey car parks and the like when you are away. Day to day you wont use them at all... thats the whole point of having a PHEV!

whippet

KCross wrote: »

Just make sure you are seeking out the right ones (slow "Type 2" charge points) not the rapid chargers.

The places you are most likely to charge the PHEV are at hotels, multi-storey car parks and the like when you are away. Day to day you wont use them at all... thats the whole point of having a PHEV!

That I know .. as most days a full charge will do me from home

zg3409

I recommend using plugshare app to find local chargers. They are often hidden and non esb are not shown on esb app. The likes of lidl have a lot and many hotels. Nearly everything is free except fast esb chargers

Kramer

whippet wrote: »

i've bitten the bullet and have ordered a PHEV - BMW 330e.

Well wear .

whippet wrote: »

However, i've been thinking about how realistic it is with public charging.

Public charging is not realistic, save for overnighting at a hotel or similar.
Best case scenario, 30 minutes at a free Lidl charge point will save you €1 in petrol.
30 minutes at an Ecars SCP (when charging is introduced) will save you probably 40 cents.

It's really not worth the hassle of plugging in your own cable & remember, the Leaf brigade need those free electrons more than you, a lowly PHEV driver (BMW mind!).

God be with the days of those free tethered AC chargers

unkel

You're lucky you never came across a big Zoe owning lad at one of those EFACECs, Kramer

But seriously, why did you bother? Buy a €40k car and go through all that trouble to save yourself €0.40?

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

You're lucky you never came across a big Zoe owning lad at one of those EFACECs, Kramer

I did meet him once actually, big lad he was too. He looked like he hit the gym regularly (& probably other blokes too!). Anyway, I commiserated with him that he could only afford a cheap French budget car & couldn't really afford fuel.
He marvelled at the magnificence of the (then charging at 3.7kW), very large German executive saloon, the luxury it exuded & sheer opulence of the leather clad interior, replete with ambient lighting & gesture control.

I counselled him as to how he could become more successful some day & possibly, with enough dedication & hard work, aspire to own such a wondrous car as the BMW before him.

unkel wrote: »

But seriously, why did you bother? Buy a €40k car and go through all that trouble to save yourself €0.40?

IIRC that spec M-Sport retailed nearer the €70k mark, after grants & incentives.
Regardless of value, you shouldn't look at it as just saving 40c but rather envisage the 4,000g of CO2 saved. That's a polar bear saved from bronchitis in my book.
It also provides the feel good factor knowing one is green & gives the kudos to berate others, Greta style; "I'm doing my part, what are you doing?"

Far more valuable than any monetary saving, I think you'll agree?

unkel

Dunno where to start replying to all that :eek:

I guess I'll just agree

zilog_jones

Sigma101 wrote: »

As a BEV driver I think it's good etiquette to use free public SCPs only when you need to (i.e. never - regardless of whether it's BEV or PHEV)...

But PHEVs never *need* to be charged, so what's the point in having a PHEV if you're not going to charge it?

I'm not using my PHEV on public chargers to save money - after nearly 4 years I still haven't broken even on the €175 I paid for a Type 2 cable.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

But PHEVs never *need* to be charged, so what's the point in having a PHEV if you're not going to charge it?

I'm not using my PHEV on public chargers to save money - after nearly 4 years I still haven't broken even on the €175 I paid for a Type 2 cable.

The point of having a phev is twofold
a) to charge at home and save on fuel costs
b) to show the world that you wanted to buy a bev but chickened out :D

n97 mini

Does it come with a charging cable for use with such charge points? It may not. A lot of PHEVs don't.

adunis

ELM327 wrote: »

The point of having a phev is twofold
a) to charge at home and save on fuel costs
b) to show the world that you wanted to buy a bev but chickened out :D

Spot in that man

zilog_jones

ELM327 wrote: »

The point of having a phev is twofold
a) to charge at home and save on fuel costs
b) to show the world that you wanted to buy a bev but chickened out :D

1. The fuel savings are totally negated by the cost of the car, this was not a money saving exercise for me.
2. The only decent BEV within my budget at the time was a Gen 1 Leaf, which didn't suit my longer distance driving and I just don't like them.

kaahooters

sooooo... all the salty phev comments.

ill break it down.
PHEV = good
more phev = more demand for charge points
more charge points = MORE CHARGE POINTS for you bev zelots.

embrace phev, and encourage people to buy them. itll benefit you in the long run

unkel

zilog_jones wrote: »

The only decent BEV within my budget at the time was a Gen 1 Leaf, which didn't suit my longer distance driving and I just don't like them.

I think ELM327 was posting half in jest, and certainly not aimed at people like yourself who had to make the choice between BEV and PHEV 4 years ago when the range of all EVs (except Tesla) was just not adequate for most people. BEVs have come a long way since then and public charging has improved and is about to be improved much further.

unkel

kaahooters wrote: »

ill break it down.
PHEV = good better than diesel

FYP

zilog_jones

Yes, wanting to get away from diesel was my main driver for changing cars.

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

1. The fuel savings are totally negated by the cost of the car, this was not a money saving exercise for me.
2. The only decent BEV within my budget at the time was a Gen 1 Leaf, which didn't suit my longer distance driving and I just don't like them.

I'd also say that convenience is a massive part of PHEV ownership.

No one wants to spend 30-80 mins sitting at a rapid charger no matter how pro-EV you are.

It ultimately boils down to how often that would occur for you in a BEV and what your tipping point is. PHEV entirely removes the need for these stops while still getting the advantages of BEV for the daily driving.

A few on here just think everyone should be driving a BEV because it works for them therefore it should work for everyone! :rolleyes:

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

I think ELM327 was posting half in jest, and certainly not aimed at people like yourself who had to make the choice between BEV and PHEV 4 years ago when the range of all EVs (except Tesla) was just not adequate for most people. BEVs have come a long way since then and public charging has improved and is about to be improved much further.

Of course!

KCross wrote: »

I'd also say that convenience is a massive part of PHEV ownership.

No one wants to spend 30-80 mins sitting at a rapid charger no matter how pro-EV you are.

It ultimately boils down to how often that would occur for you in a BEV and what your tipping point is. PHEV entirely removes the need for these stops while still getting the advantages of BEV for the daily driving.

A few on here just think everyone should be driving a BEV because it works for them therefore it should work for everyone! :rolleyes:

The trade off is still having to use fossil fuel, pay a higher cost, and have two drivetrains to maintain.


Back 4 years ago a phev made sense. These days the EV range on new models is pretty long, enough to remove the need to fast charge except on long trips. When you can traverse the country (~600km) like I did recently (westport to wexford to meath) with one 35 min Ionity charge and one 10 min 50kW charge when I needed to pee after 3 hours of driving, the use case for a phev now is limited.

KCross

Says he in a Model S!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Says he in a Model S!

Which I got for similar price to a new SR+ with FSD.


Kona/ENiro/Esoul have similar 300km+ motorway winter range.

whippet

I went PHEV as we don't do enough milage to justify diesel and most journeys are shorter than 10 miles. (our other car is the work horse)

Apart from a model s nothing in the BEV models available interested me from a motoring point of view - everything was so bland and uninspiring.

So with PHEV the options are much better and I get the compromise of having EV power for 90% of journeys and a BMW MSport for when I want / need it

lapua20grain

I went with a Phev as my commute was within the range of the battery and I could charge anywhere with a 3 pin socket. It's currently saving me approx €220 a month on petrol and €45 on M50 tolls. Also I didn't like any of the full EV designs.

zilog_jones

ELM327 wrote: »

The trade off is still having to use fossil fuel, pay a higher cost, and have two drivetrains to maintain.

There's still only one drivetrain though, just with an additional maintenance-free motor or two somewhere between the ICE and the wheels.

For me, the only additional maintenance is to clean the battery fans every few years, and I've got a second coolant circuit that might need attention after 10 years or so.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

There's still only one drivetrain though, just with an additional maintenance-free motor or two somewhere between the ICE and the wheels.

For me, the only additional maintenance is to clean the battery fans every few years, and I've got a second coolant circuit that might need attention after 10 years or so.

Yes but you need to maintain an ICE, along with any EV related stuff.
Whereas a fossil car needs to "only" maintain an ICE and a BEV needs only to maintain EV

zilog_jones

But as I said, the "EV related stuff" is almost entirely maintenance-free.

And a typical ICE car in Ireland has a clutch, serpentine belt, starter motor and other extra things that have been done away with in most hybrids. So in fact a hybrid generally needs less maintenance than a traditional ICE car

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

The trade off is still having to use fossil fuel, pay a higher cost, and have two drivetrains to maintain.

There are multiple trade-offs for PHEV for sure.
- not as cheap as BEV to maintain
- not as smooth a drive as BEV but not bad either.

Thats about it. The positives are there too...
- No rapid charging... dont underestimate the power of this one. Even if there were Ionity chargers "everywhere" alot of people wont want to sit in their cars for 30-80mins on a long journey even if it is something you are willing to do.
- Choice
- Price. Niro PHEV is about €8k cheaper than Niro EV.
- If the right people buy them it gives the same improvement to local emissions, which we should all be encouraging.

ELM327 wrote: »

Back 4 years ago a phev made sense. These days the EV range on new models is pretty long, enough to remove the need to fast charge except on long trips.

PHEV range is massively improving too. It wont be long before they will have the range of an L24!

ELM327 wrote: »

... When you can traverse the country (~600km) like I did recently (westport to wexford to meath) with one 35 min Ionity charge and one 10 min 50kW charge when I needed to pee after 3 hours of driving, the use case for a phev now is limited.

I'd agree in the scenario where you could take your pick of any car in BEV format at a reasonable price but the reality is that is not where we are at and wont be for quite a few years to come.

I understand BEV's as anyone else on here and they are better, hands down, but there are still significant hurdles preventing mass adoption and rapid chargers everywhere wont solve all the issues.


e.g. There is a very limited choice of BEV's out there. There is alot more coming this year and next but even when those arrive it is still, relatively speaking, a very poor choice. Not everyone can afford a €40k-€60k BEV. Not everyone wants a volkswagen or a Tesla etc.... choice is a massive issue.


PHEV's are a transition tech, I get that, but the BEV market is still very poor on multiple levels and Im speaking as a BEV owner whose next car is also going to be a BEV.


For an EV forum I find the anti-PHEV posts a bit ideological and not allowing for other peoples needs because a BEV suits them so it should suit everyone.... the reality is that it doesnt suit everyone... yet.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Which I got for similar price to a new SR+ with FSD.


Kona/ENiro/Esoul have similar 300km+ motorway winter range.

I wasnt specifically referring to price there.... more so range, charge speed and choice. Come down to the mass market (<€35k) and tell me what range and charge speed they have!

whippet

I had a budget of about 50k to spend and nothing in the BEV range made me want to part with the cash .. I did briefly consider the Model 3 but it just didn’t tickle my fancy.

The compromise of a PHEV like the BMW ticked all the boxes for me.

I accept that people value the actual BEV more than the car itself and as with all things in life there everyone has different things they value and desire .. that is why we have choice !!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

I wasnt specifically referring to price there.... more so range, charge speed and choice. Come down to the mass market (<€35k) and tell me what range and charge speed they have!

Konas starting at 32k now for 191 models.
If you never need to transport anything and your children have no legs

mickdw

We are supposed to be happy as long as a bev has range.
People running out paying huge money for hideous boxes on wheels and delighted because it has range.
I can't afford any of the EV I'd want to drive even used.
Phev is the answer. People are arguing here against someone paying 40k for a phev.to save 40c.
Taking an example of a 5 series, the phev would appear to be cheaper to buy, cheaper to fuel and with lots more power than
the cheapest petrol or diesel versions.
The battery range does suit me too but regardless, on the used market it appears to make sense either way.
The added benefit of not having to live with the silly stop start systems of current petrol and diesel cars also.

User1998

I went with a PHEV for a few reasons:
-Wanted a change from diesel
-Wanted an auto. (Hard to find in VW)
-PHEV suited my driving patterns.
-No BEV other than a Tesla that interested me.
-Low VRT, Insurance, and running costs

I didn’t like the idea of having to public charge but looking back at the past 4 months of ownership, I probably would have had to public charge twice. Once in the UK and once on a trip to Wexford, and coincidentally I pulled in at Gorey service station anyway and would have public charged then. I’ve spent about €100 in fuel including driving the car home from the UK, Dublin to Wexford, a few airport runs and some other longer runs

If I had bought a similar priced BEV it would have only saved me €100 over my PHEV over the past 4 months, so say €350 a year with the additional road tax a PHEV has. (Minus the cost I would have spent on public charging, no idea how much tbh)

Obviously this doesn’t include maintenance but in my case the car came fully serviced, new pads and discs, four new tyres. I’ve spent nothing on engine maintenance and I don’t see myself spending anything this year. Realistically if I drive 10k a year but only 2/3k of that is with the engine on, do I really need to service it every year? Surely its going to be way more reliable than a standard ICE because the engine is rarely on and never doing short trips. I always use regen breaking as well so the breaks wouldn’t need changing as much similar to a BEV. That said something big like a timing belt, turbo, etc could and will need changing eventually which will effect those figures, and theres probably something else I’m forgetting?

Don’t get me wrong tho I’m really pro EV and I look forward to the day when were all driving one. (Just clarifying that so you’s all go easy on me )

KCross

User1998 wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong tho I’m really pro EV and I look forward to the day when were all driving one. (Just clarifying that so you’s all go easy on me )

No need for apologies, you are already driving an EV!.... the clue is in the name... PHEV

BEV is where its moving to but for now its a mixture of PHEV, BEV and HEV.

ELM327

mickdw wrote: »

We are supposed to be happy as long as a bev has range.
People running out paying huge money for hideous boxes on wheels and delighted because it has range.
I can't afford any of the EV I'd want to drive even used.
Phev is the answer. People are arguing here against someone paying 40k for a phev.to save 40c.
Taking an example of a 5 series, the phev would appear to be cheaper to buy, cheaper to fuel and with lots more power than
the cheapest petrol or diesel versions.
The battery range does suit me too but regardless, on the used market it appears to make sense either way.
The added benefit of not having to live with the silly stop start systems of current petrol and diesel cars also.

If you can afford a 530e/330e you can afford a Tesla.

unkel

whippet wrote: »

I had a budget of about 50k to spend

You should compare based on TCO, and not on initial purchase price. For a company car driver a brand new Tesla Model S could very well have cheaper TCO than a brand new BMW 520d / 530e even thought the purchase price is what, a good €30k more?

And I know which car I'd rather have if the TCO of above was all roughly the same...

KCross

unkel wrote: »

You should compare based on TCO, and not on initial purchase price. For a company car driver a brand new Tesla Model S could very well have cheaper TCO than a brand new BMW 520d / 530e even thought the purchase price is what, a good €30k more?

And I know which car I'd rather have if the TCO of above was all roughly the same...

Its not all down to TCO. If it was we'd all be driving Dusters!

mickdw

ELM327 wrote: »

If you can afford a 530e/330e you can afford a Tesla.

Tell me more. I'm looking at spending 33 to 35k

ELM327

mickdw wrote: »

Tell me more. I'm looking at spending 33 to 35k

Model S used starts at around that from UK
You could also buy an SR+ new or 2016 onwards model S for about 10k more which you will still save money vs a 530e/330e when you factor in fuel costs

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

Tell me more. I'm looking at spending 33 to 35k

Not that hard to setup a wee spreadsheet to compare TCO. Purchase price minus resale value after the number of years you plan to keep the car determine finance cost and depreciation. Then BIK, fuel, maintenance, tax, insurance, tolls

There's a reason thousands of company directors in the Netherlands switched from BMW 5-series / Mercedes E-class to Tesla Model S a few years ago (hint: zero BIK)

Kramer

ELM327 wrote: »

you will still save money vs a 530e/330e when you factor in fuel costs

What would he save if his daily commute in his 530e was 40km each way, with access to a 3 pin plug while there?
He'd have his 20,000km annual commute covered on battery power alone, exactly as he would in any Tesla.
Stats suggest that's more than most BEV owners annual mileage.

Not everyone wants to sit in a Leaf or Zoe. Some don't like the Model 3's spartan interior. The Model S is as wide as a triple axle Ifor Williams cowbox - wouldn't be great on smaller rural roads .
If a PHEV suits someone, I'd say go for it. Imminently better than any diesel, again, if it suits.

graememk

Kramer wrote: »

The Model S is as wide as a triple axle Ifor Williams cowbox - wouldn't be great on smaller rural roads .

The Model S is that wide... puts things into perspective, you counting the wheels or just the box? lol

Although the triple axle is grand on the rural roads, although you dont worry too much if you give the hedge a rub with it. you might with an S

Kramer

graememk wrote: »

Although the triple axle is grand on the rural roads, although you dont worry too much if you give the hedge a rub with it. you might with an S

How about a Model S towing a triple axle Ifor Williams?
Would one need yellow flags/amber beacons & an "extra wide load" sign?
Would a BE licence be sufficient?
Would the emissions saved by towing with a BEV counteract the emissions from the farting cows in the trailer behind?
Net zero?

:pac:

mickdw

Not a huge advantage for me in full EV.
Work from home. Typically do 12 to 24 miles per day with one weekly 120 mile return. The days I do 24 miles will have a home period in between also for charging phev.
Small mileage but ads up to about 12k miles per year.
A lot of that would be taken care of on electricity with a 530e
Currently putting about 250 per month in petrol into car with the occasional cross country trip also.

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

Not a huge advantage for me in full EV.

Did you take into account zero BIK for a BEV? That's where the big savings are. Much more so than fuel.

mickdw

BIK doesn't apply to me

sgalvin

With the introduction of the BIK exemption, has anyone here had the option to take a company car that wasn’t there before.

It seems the only ones to gain from this is directors of small companies.

Historically the only benefit to taking a company car was sales guys who do big business mileage, no real benefit to others. Objectively the benefit of having a car provided for evening and weekends is the same whether you drive at work or not.

mickdw wrote: »

BIK doesn't apply to me

mickdw

I am self employed sole trader. I just claim business percentage use for my car costs so approx 50 percent of running costs and 50 percent of 3000 annual depreciation for 8 years.