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Dublin Airport Bus Service Changes

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think you’re having a slight memory lapse there. It was Swords Express who tried to stop the DB 41x from using the tunnel after they got their licence (previously it did so on an ad hoc basis if full).

    It took a lot of work by politicians in Swords to come up with an alternative routing in Swords for the 41x that would avoid revenue abstraction from the commercial service and still use the port tunnel.

    Frankly, I can’t see any PSO service coming through the tunnel from the Airport - there aren’t any routings it could take that would be sufficiently different from DX.

    I think you’re overplaying the monthly/annual ticket factor here to be honest. I don’t think it’s anywhere near as big an issue as you think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭john boye


    As above, I'd say the upcoming replacement of the fleet has been the driving factor here. Would be a lot of money to spend at a time when the commercial division has pretty much been shut down for 18 months.

    Out of interest, I wonder what will become of the VGs on it. I don't know if the NTA would be keen on transferring so many 13 year old single door buses to the PSO fleet (and DB themselves might not be keen either). We may see some of them go to tours but I suspect a lot of them will just be sold on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Bumblebee2020


    This was the problem with Airlink/DoDublin commercial they leased the buses and drivers of Dublin Bus and that’s the cost that killed them.

    Most of their tickets came from online sellers/hotels/hostels so take 25/35% commission away from the ticket price for the sellers along with the cost of wages and over heads it never left them with much.

    its a well known fact they only made money for 4 months of the year because the over heads was always a big bill.

    it’s the same with DoDublin at the moment the only thing keeping them on the road is this mad deal they have with City Sightseeing international to take their tickets mid week with the Dublin operator is off the road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think that is precisely the issue at play here.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "I admit I forgot about the luggage rack downstairs, but there was usually about 10 standing. So maybe 75 per bus? Definitely a much higher capacity than the coaches."

    I wouldn't called 75 much more, it is only 20 more.

    Also just because a bus skips T2, doesn't actually mean it is full. It can often be difficult for drivers to tell if a double decker bus is really full or not. People standing in the front of the lower deck can block their view of empty seats at the back of the bus or upstairs. Plenty of times I've been at a bus stop and watched a bus pass without stopping because the driver thinks it is full, when I can see empty seats/standing room in the back or upstairs as it passes.

    This has always been an issue with double deckers and it is even worse for airport type services. People don't like to leave their luggage unattended downstairs so they try and stay with their luggage, making it harder to fill upstairs.

    This is why most companies around the world use coaches for these type of services, plenty of luggage storage below, passengers go on top and drivers handle the luggage so passengers don't worry about it getting stolen.

    In reality I suspect there is very little difference between the number of passengers the coaches take and how many really fit on the Double decker Airlink buses.

    And either way, Aircoach/DX will have no issue putting on extra coaches if needed, most likley happy to do so, they aren't limited by schedule, if demand is there, they will lay on extra coaches.

    If demand really picks up, they could also start using Overdecker coaches. They have 75 seats, while still retaining plenty of luggage space and easy access wheelchair bay. They would be a much better option then a double decker city bus, really they are the ideal option. There are also double decker coaches, but they have poor luggage storage so tend to be poor for airport type services.

    To be honest Brian, I think what you really want is a PSO service to use the port tunnel, that would suit you and others working at the airport best. That is what I'd campaign for if I was you (and as a 16 user I'd fully support it).



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "I think you’re having a slight memory lapse there. It was Swords Express who tried to stop the DB 41x from using the tunnel after they got their licence (previously it did so on an ad hoc basis if full)."

    You are absolutely right LXFlyer, my bad!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I just haven't seen the kind of numbers that you are implying in reality overall

    I've never ever seen an Airlink where every seat was taken. Upstairs, especially towards the back, even on 'full' vehicles where people are congregating downstairs there are normally at the very least 4-5 seats as people peak their head upstairs and look at the first few rows and see no spaces and walk down even when there are spaces further back) and there's normally luggage blocking seats in the back row downstairs where seats face each other. From my experience most people who stand downstairs don't want to go upstairs with their case or leave it downstairs alone, or didn't spot the empty seats towards the back downstairs.

    I also don't think there is anything like 680 people taking express bus services an hour either. In reality whilst Aircoach and Airlink were very regular services, there must be about another 30 longer distance routes operating from the bus park and that's before we take into account those traveling to hotels, car park shuttles, car hire, Dublin Bus 16/41 and Go-Ahead Ireland routes, Airport Hopper and Dublin Coach routes within Dublin, along with Aircoach Greystones and Dalkey routes all which will be drawing passengers. That's before we account for the fact those with a taxsaver might not take an express bus anymore if they have to pay for it.

    It is true that Airlink technically had more capacity than the coach operators in terms of seats on paper but in reality because of luggage blocking seats in the back row and people not wanting to go upstairs with their luggage leaving seats vacant, the number of people they were actually carrying wasn't that much higher in general. On the other hand, on a coach with no stairs and a far smaller chance of luggage blocking seats, which means that they tend to utilise a higher percentage of the seats available at busy times.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I would imagine that having seen Dublin Express return that was probably the final nail in the coffin to be honest. If they decided post pandemic not to come back and we were just down to Aircoach and Airlink then I think it would still have been viable.

    But looking at it logically, they really would need to spend a lot of money on purchasing a new fleet and not only is that going to be at a time when the future is unknown due to COVID-19, but also at a time when there is more competition than ever on the route.

    We know that National Express from the UK are only too happy to have a long drawn out commercial battle when it comes to airport routes and they've seen off many others in the pas and having NatEx literally on their doorstep at Dublin Airport in addition to having Aircoach to compete against was going to for sure hit the financial performance of Airlink.

    All things in all, I think it's a sensible decision by Dublin Bus. The amount of money they would need to invest in new vehicles and then getting into what would most likely be a three way fight against competitors with deep pockets at times of uncertainty just doesn't make commercial sense.

    I guess we will see what happens with Tours. I can't see all three operators lasting in that either and would imagine that we'll be down to two operators. Probably Big Bus and Dublin Bus most likely, but might be a case of who blinks first there. I would imagine the City Sightseeing Dublin one is the most likely to lose out there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    To be honest capacity probably isn't needed in the short term. I'll let you know when I make it back to the office!

    But you all are making me feel even worse about all those evenings waiting 40mins or so for a bus if you are telling me the ones not picking me up weren't even full.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I used in EastPoint Business Park and would normally have taken 20-25 flights a year and my initial idea was to wait at The Point and get the first bus that turns up. The number of times I saw DB services go past and not stop was pretty frustrating.

    So I decided to get on the bus earlier in the route at Busaras and I saw the other side of this, getting on the bus, full luggage rack, people standing, people in the back row with cases next to them. I'd walk upstairs and occasionally somebody would tell me it's full. I'd then walk towards the back upstairs and without fail I had a choice of a few seats, normally at least one double seat free!

    The problem with not using full capacity was not quite as bad from the airport. But still seats being blocked by luggage towards the back downstairs and empty seats at the back upstairs was still a thing. Sometimes drivers would actually tell people to go upstairs as there are seats, but it wasn't every driver and often people would still stay downstairs.

    I'd book Aircoach since I'd be guaranteed a seat from the Point if I wasn't travelling during rush hour, but since the 702/703 via the tunnel tended to get stuck in traffic in Ballsbridge, it just wasn't worth the stress during peak times.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Something you never thought you would see, but now you have.

    Seems that Dublin Bus have decided that in the absence of running their own service, they will sell tickets for Aircoach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,284 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Here is the official announcement from Dublin Bus about the closing of Airlink.

    What a sad end for Airlink. It had a good run in our capital city for a good number of decades.

    We didn't expect that a major pandemic was going to come in so quickly & end it's demise. It's another huge fabric of the city that has been wiped from existence meaning on this occasion; fate has told us what was going to happen to it. All that I can say here is damn you Covid-19.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "Seems that Dublin Bus have decided that in the absence of running their own service, they will sell tickets for Aircoach."

    Maybe a sign of a broader agreement? Maybe we will see Aircoach Transfer + DoDublin Hop On and Hop Off tour tickets? Maybe Aircoach will take Airlinks bus stops at the airport?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Bumblebee2020


    “”Maybe Aircoach will take Airlinks bus stops at the airport?””


    already a done deal with the DAA they will run Dublin services from Airlinks lot.

    in the next week or two you will see the move happen.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Thanks for the confirmation Bumblebee2020, it makes sense, I couldn't see any other bus or coach company being big enough to take those premium lots. Aircoach most be relieved to be back in those spots, it will allow them to compete directly with DX. I wonder will they just run the Dublin services from these lots or will they also return to run the Cork/Galway/Belfast intercity services from there too or stay in the coach bays for those?

    I can imagine that there will be a reshuffling in the Coach lots with all the changes happening. Aircoach moving out partly or completely, needing less space, Expressway running less services from the airport, Citylink/GoBus merger, maybe space there for JJ Kavanagh, Wexford Bus, etc. to move back in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,077 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Where are Aircoach going?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Would make sense for Aircoach to split up their services, even in terms of space - I'd say when the 702/703 start back up, the stands they currently have would be a bit tight with 6 different routes using them at the same time



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "Where are Aircoach going?"

    Basically where Airlink currently stop, at Terminal 2, across the bridge, down the stairs/elevators and too the right (DX being too the left).

    At Terminal 1, just outside the building, but across one road.

    Basically where the Arlink stops are marked on this map (note PDF file):

    In both cases, next to or very close to the DX stops.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,284 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I heard recently that the Evora bus used for the crowne plaza hotel shuttle route on the Swords Road from Dublin Airport has been transferred to do a hotel shuttle route from Edinburgh Airport. What stop did that bus use at Dublin Airport?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    I wouldn't be surprised to see Airlink back in service in the next 1-2 years. The market at Dublin Airport has already returned to growth and at some point it will exceed the pre-pandemic levels we had before - it's only a matter of time that someone will come in to cater for it and DB are well placed to do that. Talk of Airlink being a failure per-pandemic isn't borne out by the usage on those services.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Doubt it as this wasn't just about COVID, despite what the public message from Dublin Bus says.

    It's about the fact a new well resourced competitor had started out on the airport runs and the fact that Dublin Bus would need to purchase an expensive new fleet to compete since their existing vehicles on the route are 12-13 years old. The business case in terms of return on investment would be quite poor now.

    Dublin Express is essentially new capacity which will help to fill a big part of the gap that Airlink leaves. They are doing the catering that you are talking about and I would imagine both them and Aircoach, being backed by large parent companies, will scale up services if needed.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'd be absolutely shocked to see Airlink return in a few years. As devnull says, it isn't really Covid that has caused this (though it likely speed up the decision) but rather facing a very well funded large new competitor, at a time when they need to start to make decisions about buying a new fleet of buses/coach that would likely have cost in the region of 10 million.

    Trying to renter this market in 1 or 2 years would be utter madness. Now was the time for them to fight off DX, if they didn't do it now, they certainly won't do it 1 to 2 years from now.

    1 to 2 years from now, DX and Aircoach will have solidified themselves as the primary services at the airport. All the customers who might have taken Airlink, would have instead taken DX/Aircoach and gotten familiar with them. It is extremely unlikely Airlink would get back their premium bus stops at the airport (I suspect there are likely some burned bridges here with the DAA) and so would be operating from the coach park with the 16/41 which would be a major handicap.

    Also would their route license even still exist then? Would they need to reapply with the NTA for a new route license?

    The VG's would be 14 to 15 years old, so they would definitely need to buy a new fleet of vehicles (and the VG's may well be sold off by then / cut up for tour work).

    Also keep in mind, in a few years you have to start thinking about Metrolink opening and the competition (and capacity) that adds. I realise the Metro feels far off, but if they buy a new fleet of vehicles 2 years from now, they would be looking to operate them for about 14 or 15 years, so up to about 2036. The Metro will likely open during the middle of that period.

    And Dublin Bus has much bigger concerns to deal with, BusConnects and the on going negotiations with drivers and needing to protect their core PSO service and fight off competitors for upcoming PSO contract tenders.

    As disappointing as it might be, I think DB actually made the smart business decision here. They looked at the competition and their need to heavily invest in it going forward and decided that it was smarter to back out. They likely made nice profits on the service over the last 20+ years, better to take those profits and cut their loses, then to invest very heavily in the service and potentially lose money on it for years to come.

    No, I'm afraid Arilink is dead and gone and won't be coming back. What might be smarter to do is for DB to try and convince the NTA to create a PSO route that uses the port tunnel. Obviously try and avoid direct overlap with DX. Probably won't happen, but frankly more likely then Airlink returning.

    Post edited by bk on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,284 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Does anyone have hard figures on how much money the operators have to pay to the DAA per year to keep the premium bus stops in place at Dublin Airport?

    I'd imagine that if Dublin Bus and other operators were to keep paying fees to the DAA even when those bus stops weren't used for running services when their own Airport routes were closed during the pandemic. It's extremely likely to say right now that Dublin Bus in this scenario had a very limited pot of money to begin with being generated for their commercial services division when they had the tours & Airport routes bringing in their revenue.

    When Covid came along in March 2020; that money had dried up for them very quickly which has now resulted in Airlink being closed off for good. It didn't make any financial sense for Dublin Bus to keep paying the huge DAA fees on maintaining the Airlink Bus stops at Dublin Airport when no money was coming in from their customers to support that business in the first place. That's why it became unviable to continue on with it. Before that; they have had to mull over the potential headache of buying new buses to replace the VG's; with the money drying up within their own business model. Dublin Bus management just decided to make the hardest decision possible to their own staff they had to close the service for good.

    The private operators in this case don't have a problem in this instance to continue paying these fees to the DAA as they the large financial resources to back it up. If Dublin Bus continued to play this tactic with the private operators if they were low on funds when all of the Covid variant's are dead & buried; they would be seen as playing hard ball with very little gain to show for it in the end. They just couldn't continue within their own head to play these sort of tactics anymore. Dublin Bus had to fold their side of the bargain by scrapping Airlink & let the private operators pick up the slack once the Airport & the country goes back to normality.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Aircoach have now confirmed that the Greystones and Dalkey routes will return on Sunday 12th September.

    Timetable to be released shortly,

    @patrickbrophy18



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,196 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    Timetables posted there overnight for the 2 routes. Hopefully get back to the 1hr frequency on Greystones soon enough




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭thomasj


    You can still buy airlink tickets in the leap card app ?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Aircoach have now confirmed they have moved to the former Airlink stops:

    Their website appears broken though, as you cannot seem to book a trip from Terminal 2 to Cork or any destination on the Leopardstown route as a single, but you can book a single from any destination on the Leopardstown route or Cork to Terminal 2.

    In addition if you try and book a return trip from any destination on the Leopardstown route or Cork to terminal 2, it gives no results. I presume this is, like the above, because for some reason the booking engine hasn't had a T2 stop added for southbound Cork and Leopardstown services.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    I also hope that they get back the 1hr frequency for the Killiney/Dalkey route. I am more than a little disappointed that both routes are being reintroduced with such a paired back frequency. The gap between the last and first service is a bit daft given that there are a whole bunch of flights between these times.

    It only means that people will be waiting longer between the time they arrive at the airport and the time their flight departs. If the accounts of others is anything to go by, it's bad enough that flying is a lot more stressful with additional checks for COVID certs, PCR tests and having to where masks without prolonging the experience.

    Finally, with the current timetables being valid well past the New Year and bearing in mind that the run-up to this Christmas will be far more hectic than last, it will be disastrous without a timetable review in the interim. 100% capacity should be consistent across the board.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,196 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    You'd imagine that as demand increases then frequency will increase. Would be mad not to have some sort of flexibility



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It isn't quiet clear from the website, but it looks like they are operating all their services, including the Cork/Galway/Belfast services from the old Airlink stops.

    DAA have already updated their coach stop map and now Aircoach are only at the old Airlink stops and Aircoach old Zone 11 stops are now marked as empty. I assume there will be more changes in future there (note the map is named "interim"):

    https://www.dublinairport.com/docs/default-source/maps/bus-transport-map.pdf?sfvrsn=beabc4ba_2

    Also Aircoach's FAQ is now out of date, it still says the old location Zone 11.

    BTW If they do operate all services out of this new location, it might help them pick up folks heading to Galway who might not know about the faster Citylink service over in the coach park.

    Post edited by bk on


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