LGBT Forum Siliencing Trans People

JackTaylorFan

The LGBT+ forum on Boards continues to be stuck somewhere in the early 2000s. Active users are mostly gay men, lesbians, lots of ignorant as **** straight people (some there deliberately to troll) and maybe one or two other trans people that are actually active, regular posters. Most other trans people that post are just starting out and are looking for advice on getting access to healthcare, or support groups, etc. and they rarely stick around after they get what they ask for - they usually have no real lived experiences of what's it like to live openly as a trans person either. Even the one mod who identifies as transgender has openly admitted to (and I am somewhat paraphrasing them here) not being out as themselves (whatever that means). This is not a personal attack on said mod, but it is a problem.

I, on the other hand, have over a decade and a half of living my life as a trans person openly - and not in an LGBT safespace either. I'm way passed the stage of seeking guidance on the matters that concern most of the trans people who post in the forum - who, I should add, maybe post once and are never heard from again after they get the information they require. Information I am usually happy to give (even if I do so in my own unapologetic and blunt manner - being trans in a cis world can be **** at times and they should be aware of that if they plan to live the life). In contrast, as a consequence, of where I am in life, I experience all the bull**** that a trans person who is out (whatever that means) has to deal with almost daily.

Now, to my point, I assumed the LGBT+ forum - like it should be in any place designated as LGBT+ - would be a place a trans woman could talk openly about her experiences without constant judgement of her character; without being tone-policed; without being told they are over-reacting; without all the victim blaming; without baseless and unqualified accusations of having a "persecution complex"; without being constantly cajoled and harassed by both straight and gay people alike (mostly males); without being shutdown because it is inconvenient to the mods of the forum who are more concerned with keeping the majority of the users (gay men) of the forum placated (even if they are in the wrong); without constant denials of my experience; without mods being complicit in the actions of those same two or three or four users who decide to insert their overreaching opinions into the issues that are faced solely in many case by people like me - but none of that is the case. My threads are constantly shutdown for nonsense reasons. The latest was because apparently nobody had replied to agree with me about the issue up for discussion - this is not true either, but let's ignore that for convenience sake, like the mod did. However the few supportive voices were soon drowned out by a deluge of gay men (mostly, I shouldn't assume all of them were gay) who have a problem with me for various reasons. I don't really have time to list them all, but here's two: Some just don't like my brash manner; some have a problem because I don't enjoy being seen as a sex object (evidence in the Unicorn Hunting thread). And so they continue to deny my experience and attack me personally (whilst accusing me of the very thing they are actually doing). One even accused me of being some kind of religious prude because my values are not on-tone with the majority of gay men - which is laughable. Accusations of me being influenced by "Christian Values" or "Catholic Ireland"? I despise all religion as anyone who has ever engaged me on the subject will know, either online or in real life.
No, the truth is, it's convenient to both mods and users of the forum to ignore the issues of trans people that I do bring up; easier to brandi me as the "angry trans woman" - a tactic that has been used to silence minorities for years, especially women - for example, like this - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24188294


I thought maybe there might be some change after the new mods were appointed, but my latest interaction with one of them has left me sorely disappointed on that front also. His reason for shutting down my latest thread? Not enough replies from people with the same or similar experience? After how many days, exactly? Not even week is the answer. Yet, on the same forum dead threads with no replies remain open indefinitely. It's a joke. The real reason is because I provoke discussion that makes people in the LGBT groupthink uncomfortable. They accuse me of projecting. Yet, they are the ones attacking me, because they can't see past their own issues - e.g. in one thread I discussed how the issue of how I, personally, am not willing to accept being used as a third in a couple's sex-life. This somehow translated to the reactionaries in the forum as a judgement on anyone who does. It's ridiculous.

On an LGBT forum where I am constantly told to shut-up (in effect) by users and mods who are encouraged, not-so-subtly, by the same few users over and over again because they don't like what I have to say. The latest incident with the acting mod, suggesting I leave the forum for good as it didn't seem to be the place for me (and I assume people like me). None of this is acceptable on a forum designated LGBT. Boards has always been behind the times - probably why a lot of younger trans women would never dream of coming here. The average age of trans users who ask advice here, seems to be somewhere in their mid 30s to late 40s. In short, the forum is out of touch with the issues concerning trans women who are far beyond the point of seeking guidance for medication and support groups.

The reality is acceptance of trans people is about 20 years behind both gay men and women. That's the reality. And within the LGBT community itself, especially on Boards which is completely out of touch with trans issues, there a lot of gay and lesbian who don't do much to conceal their dislike of trans people either. As i said, and I don't think anyone with a fair understanding of this world can disagree: Gay men and women are at least 20 years ahead of the rest of us in terms of acceptance. And as life is, people like to pull the ladder up behind them. That's how it is when you're at the bottom rung in society. People want to shut you up and paint you as irrational. It's an easy fix, that.

The whole thing is a joke. You may as well remove the T from the forum, because in 2020 it is not fit for purpose.


Thanks

Goodshape

Well, I don't know.

This is the (most recent?) thread in question, and I'm the mod that locked it – https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058047066

It wasn't a quick or easy decision. I PM'd JackTaylorFan about it and discussed with the other mods last night. Last night we thought we could leave it open, and today I just couldn't see it doing anything but fuelling more arguments.


Unfortunately people can be very good at tip-toeing around the rules on the LGBT forum, with a lot of "just asking!" style nonsense, and a majority of that is aimed towards our Trans* users and their issues. It's not nice and it's bloody difficult to moderate. If I ban someone for a "just asking!!" question, three more posters I'd never heard of before show up to decry the loss of free speech. And at the same time I don't want to ban the regular LGBT forum member for losing temper once or twice.

But JTF has form. I don't think she could deny that. And to me the opening post read like a rant, leaving no avenues for discussion and plenty to defend. The LGBT forum does need to cater to the Trans* community but it also needs to cater to the rest of the LGBT+ community along with it.

Beasty

Moved from Feedback

Forum complaints are dealt with in Help Desk

JackTaylorFan

Goodshape wrote: »

But JTF has form. I don't think she could deny that. And to me the opening post read like a rant, leaving no avenues for discussion and plenty to defend. The LGBT forum does need to cater to the Trans* community but it also needs to cater to the rest of the LGBT+ community along with it.

I do have form. I have been met with nothing but hostility since joining Boards. Trans people are openly mocked on this site, most notably in After Hours where attacks over healthcare were constant when I frequented the form - and it was this attitude that often used to carry over to the LGBT forum. How else would one expect a trans woman who actually gives a **** about these issues to react? The culture here has been toxic to trans people for long before I joined and remains intolerable in some forums. After my last complaint about this very forum, I saw some small improvement within - for a while. But there is still a huge issue - especially with non-LGBT members pining in with blatant bigotry often thinly veiled as "concern".

I have in a recent thread which discusses workplace discrimination been told by straight people that I should not be telling people I "used to be man" in a workplace - a gross statement that I won't even dignify with a thought out response as it underlies the prejudice of the user. The potent level of transphobia allowed to exist in the forum would not be accepted in any other space designated for LGBT people to discuss issues.

And it's not like it's that hard to spot the users who continue to do this. I can name at least 4 off of the top of my head who have a history of blatantly trolling the forum - especially concerning issues related to trans people. They are not nearly as subtle as they think they are. How they are allowed to still post in the forum is beyond me at this stage. And all it does is cause me to become defensive as the mods hands seem tied and dictated to by rigid charter guidelines on banning. I appreciate the mods are taking time out of their lives to do the job they do, I truly do. And I appreciate it is very difficult for them at times - but at the end of the day, if they can't protect trans people from personal attacks then maybe they should just stop pretending this forum is in any way a place where trans people can feel free and safe to post at all. Because at present, they're not.

I've pretty much said everything that needs to be said here. I wholeheartedly believe Boards will never be a suitable place for trans people (especially trans women) to discuss issues they face in society. And for that reason the LGBT forum should be scrapped or revert to simply LGB as so many would like. Take the T out and I will leave and your problem is solved in a sense. Don't I will continue to post until my foreseeable ban. It's not appropriate to advertise yourself as LGBT when you can't protect all members of the community from blatant bigotry.

JackTaylorFan

I should clarify, my biggest issue with the mod in question in the latest thread closure, was not the closure itself (though that is frustrating and disappointing), it was the dismissive nature of it. Labeling it as a mere "rant". It's a word with nothing but negative connotations It's condescending; tone-policing; and it's minimizing of my experience whilst further painting a picture in the eyes of others of me being the irrational, angry trans woman.

looksee

I didn't contribute to the thread in question (the gay man trying to make sense of his office situation?) because it was in LGBT and it is far too easy to make a mistake of terminology in there. I felt, as some others felt that possibly the OP's issue wasn't anything to do with his being gay, just a bit of a non-match with the vibes of the office in question. You don't have to be gay to feel out of it or a bit odd. Been there, as I imagine have many people. But if you have what you feel is an obvious 'difference' then it is easy to put everything down to that, rather than just a general life thing.

This suggestion was not proposed as anything definite, just a possibility. And several gay people said that they didn't have office issues, which also doesn't prove anything but could suggest that the theory might have had some basis.

The conversation was civil and courteous - and careful; if JTF thought that someone had incorrect phraseology then here was an excellent opportunity to offer correction in a reasonable manner, the slip up that ignited the aggravation was not trolling or blatant, a simple correction would have been quite sufficient.

It is quite appropriate for a forum to be a safe haven, as in Christianity, TLL and the TGC where contributors do not have to continually defend themselves from casual abuse or constant nitpicking. If the LGBT forum does not want any contributions from other than people of those specific sectors of society though, they need to say so. It would mean that it becomes an echo chamber, and that LGBT people have no communication on boards - good or bad - with straight society. And it would go against the spirit of discussion on Boards. But if that is what LGBT people want (and I don't really think it is) it should be clear, the rules at the moment state that anyone is welcome to contribute in a civil and generally empathic way.

Goodshape

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Take the T out and I will leave and your problem is solved in a sense. Don't I will continue to post until my foreseeable ban. It's not appropriate to advertise yourself as LGBT when you can't protect all members of the community from blatant bigotry.

So you're basically threatening that if we don't explicitly exclude the entire Trans* community from the forum, you will continue to post disruptively and argumentatively until we're forced to ban you.

You are not the entire Trans community! And you, personally, have been given SO much leeway and second, third, fourth, fifth chances. Specifically because we are well aware of how underrepresented the Trans community are on the forum. None of the moderators want that to decrease. None of us want to side against you. But what option are you leaving us with here.

Your post on "Unicorn hunters" was not suitable to a discussion forum and I can't believe you don't realise that. It was a rant. Full of kink shaming and lambasting others as "fetishistic" and "repugnant". There was 1 chance in a million that it wouldn't instantly attract people who want to defend what you call out as "repugnant" and how "these people treat others".



Anyway. Don't think I have anything more to add here, and honestly not sure what the point of this thread is. JTF isn't banned from the forum. A thred which I believe served no good purpose has been closed.

That's it from me.

looksee

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I have in a recent thread which discusses workplace discrimination been told by straight people that I should not be telling people I "used to be man" in a workplace - a gross statement that I won't even dignify with a thought out response as it underlies the prejudice of the user. The potent level of transphobia allowed to exist in the forum would not be accepted in any other space designated for LGBT people to discuss issues.

Lets just get that straight. You were not told you should not 'be telling people 'I used be a man''.

You were asked civilly in the context of the thread why it was necessary to automatically tell people you were a trans woman. You said:

People treat me fine, until I inform them I'm trans. Then you get treated like a third class citizen.

and someone asked

Do you tell them that you're trans at work? Do you need to?

Now given the fine shades of meaning required in conversation in that forum, your saying 'until I inform them' does sound like an official announcement made invariably to people that you meet, so it is not entirely surprising that someone would ask whether it was necessary. Not because there is something to hide but because you are at work, your personal life isn't necessarily anyone else's concern or interest.

They were not saying you should not do it, they were asking why you would, in the sense of, maybe its something you should consider.

People don't go into an office and say 'Hi, I'm mary, I'm divorced/ separated/ bankrupt/ engaged/ pregnant/ gay or any other personal detail of their life. It may well eventually be shared with someone who becomes a friend and who might be interested, but generally all people care about is whether you are going to do your share of the work, what the hurling results were over the weekend and what's on Fair City.

None of this has anything to do with your being Trans, and everything to do with ordinary daily interaction at work with other people, the same stuff everyone has to deal with.

JackTaylorFan

looksee wrote: »

Lets just get that straight. You were not told you should not 'be telling people 'I used be a man''.

You were asked civilly in the context of the thread why it was necessary to automatically tell people you were a trans woman. You said:

No. Take a quick look at the user's history on the forum. Also saying you used to be a man to a trans woman is totally disrespectful - and should not be happening anywhere let alone on an LGBT forum. And I would tell you to **** off if you dared say that to my face.

Also, the question had already been answered. Don't try to spin his question as concern - the tone was bigoted

JackTaylorFan

Goodshape wrote: »

So you're basically threatening that if we don't explicitly exclude the entire Trans* community from the forum, you will continue to post disruptively and argumentatively until we're forced to ban you.

I didn't say that, but that's pretty much what you guys are wanting to do - we all know it's easier for you to just shut people up. I don't think the forum is suitable for purpose as it stands and I won't be quiet about it either. So...

Goodshape wrote: »

You are not the entire Trans community! And you, personally, have been given SO much leeway and second, third, fourth, fifth chances. Specifically because we are well aware of how underrepresented the Trans community are on the forum. None of the moderators want that to decrease. None of us want to side against you. But what option are you leaving us with here.

Your post on "Unicorn hunters" was not suitable to a discussion forum and I can't believe you don't realise that. It was a rant. Full of kink shaming and lambasting others as "fetishistic" and "repugnant". There was 1 chance in a million that it wouldn't instantly attract people who want to defend what you call out as "repugnant" and how "these people treat others".

"rant" implies irrationality. I am anything but.

Being fetishised is repugnant. Seriously, what planet are you from where you think it's okay for people to treat me like a thing? This is all part of the trans experience - what can I say? Am I not allowed to talk about how degrading and dehumanising this is? You clearly don't give a **** anyhow.

You have men telling me I should be somehow happy about all of it. This is the kind of misogynistic crap I'd expect in After Hours . Why should a trans woman be happy about people wanting to use her for sex? Men getting pissy because they somehow think me not wanting that impacts on them. They don't understand my experience, they are gay men. We are not the same. But as I said they are the majority and you'd rather appease them.

Sorry, but these are the issues trans women deal with. If they can't talk honestly about their experiences and how that makes them feel then what the hell is the point? The forum is broken. It's not representative of the trans experience. So stop pretending it is.

JackTaylorFan

looksee wrote: »

I didn't contribute to the thread in question (the gay man trying to make sense of his office situation?) because it was in LGBT and it is far too easy to make a mistake of terminology in there. I felt, as some others felt that possibly the OP's issue wasn't anything to do with his being gay, just a bit of a non-match with the vibes of the office in question. You don't have to be gay to feel out of it or a bit odd. Been there, as I imagine have many people. But if you have what you feel is an obvious 'difference' then it is easy to put everything down to that, rather than just a general life thing.

This suggestion was not proposed as anything definite, just a possibility. And several gay people said that they didn't have office issues, which also doesn't prove anything but could suggest that the theory might have had some basis.

The conversation was civil and courteous - and careful; if JTF thought that someone had incorrect phraseology then here was an excellent opportunity to offer correction in a reasonable manner, the slip up that ignited the aggravation was not trolling or blatant, a simple correction would have been quite sufficient.

It is quite appropriate for a forum to be a safe haven, as in Christianity, TLL and the TGC where contributors do not have to continually defend themselves from casual abuse or constant nitpicking. If the LGBT forum does not want any contributions from other than people of those specific sectors of society though, they need to say so. It would mean that it becomes an echo chamber, and that LGBT people have no communication on boards - good or bad - with straight society. And it would go against the spirit of discussion on Boards. But if that is what LGBT people want (and I don't really think it is) it should be clear, the rules at the moment state that anyone is welcome to contribute in a civil and generally empathic way.

Seriously, you're talking out of your arse.

Dial Hard

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Being fetishised is repugnant. Seriously, what planet are you from where you think it's okay for people to treat me like a thing? This is all part of the trans experience - what can I say? Am I not allowed to talk about how degrading and dehumanising this is? You clearly don't give a **** anyhow.

You weren't fetishised though! You were hit on by a horny couple chancing their arm. I've been asked to be the third in a threesome several times by supposedly straight couples (full disclosure, I'm straight myself). At no point did I take the approach as anything other than a bit of a compliment, tbh. I certainly didn't think I was being fetishised or being looked at as a sex object or any of the other things you accused 'your' couple of.

Tbh, JTF, if you can't see at this point that the issue is your attitude and not the fact that you're trans, I don't think any number of feedback threads is going to help. Your default position is hostility and aggression, on pretty much every forum and every topic you post on, not just trans issues. I have to say, I think you've gotten away with absolute murder everywhere on Boards, pretty much any other poster would have been banned long ago.

Anyway, that's my 2c. No doubt it will be dismissed (with a lengthy tirade) as irrelevant because I'm cis and straight. But maybe some introspection mightn't be a bad idea. That's all I'm saying.

(Also, mods, apologies if regular users aren't supposed to post in these threads, I'm never quite sure of the rules.)

hullaballoo

Admin: just in reply to the last line of Dial Hard's post, anyone can contribute within the forum rules, constructively and civilly. Posts are pre moderated here though so must be approved before appearing.

Obviously posts that are in breach of forum or site rules or are uncivil will not be approved. All others will be.

looksee

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Seriously, you're talking out of your arse.

I suppose from your point of view, I am. And it does appear that you have no desire to even attempt to see any other point of view. I can only agree that maybe the solution is for there to be a Trans forum so you can rant (I use the word advisedly as it has already been used) with others of the same outlook.

Also saying you used to be a man to a trans woman is totally disrespectful

No doubt it is, but where has this happened in this thread? You were the only person who raised this and you have gradually shifted the emphasis of what was originally said to feed your aggravation. You were also giving out about not being taken seriously or treated with respect when you discussed medical issues in After Hours. Well, doh! Really! I can think of very very few cases where serious personal issues got a sympathetic response in AH (there were a couple) which is why people do not do that. You almost give the impression you are looking for rows?

Many people have issues. Your issues have basis in something very profound to you and which were not of your choosing. This combination of circumstances is not in fact unique. Your apparent need to express yourself as a constantly angry and aggressive accuser is a hard way to live. I hope you find some peace. For what its worth, you have my best wishes.

Shield

Mod: OP appears to have closed his/her account. Please keep this in mind when replying.

LLMMLL

looksee wrote:

People don't go into an office and say 'Hi, I'm mary, I'm divorced/ separated/ bankrupt/ engaged/ pregnant/ gay or any other personal detail of their life. It may well eventually be shared with someone who becomes a friend and who might be interested, but generally all people care about is whether you are going to do your share of the work, what the hurling results were over the weekend and what's on Fair City.

None of this has anything to do with your being Trans, and everything to do with ordinary daily interaction at work with other people, the same stuff everyone has to deal with.

This just isn't true though. People make announcements about personal things all the time.

A friend of mine used to openly announce in any workplace he went to that he was gay when starting. It worked fine for him. His most recent workplace he decided not to announce it and now he's in the position of nervously laughing when people assume he has a girlfriend. It's much harder for him to counter an assumption than just tell people directly from the start.

And people make pregnancy announcements all the time. Even at work.

I don't know if you're gay/trans it have experience of being a part of another minority, but if you are I think you should get JTFs position on this, even if it hasn't been your direct experience.

B0jangles

Boards cannot have its cake at eat it - you can't have a subforum in which trans people are supposed to feel welcome on the same discussion board that houses forums like AH* and Current Affairs whose moderators fought very hard against any requirement that trans people be spoken of with even the barest, meanest, tiniest level of basic respect. The attitude which is so very apparent in those subforums tends to leak out and infect other forums, making the whole site a less pleasant place to be.

A few months ago I argued for days in Feedback that the very least that could be done was require posters to address people in the way they wanted - either by their names or by the pronouns they felt most confortable with. This basic degree of respect was strenuously resisted by the moderators in charge.

It seemed to be more important to those moderators to protect the rights of people to insult trans men and women than to protect trans people from being insulted.

(I see the OP has closed their account. What a surprise.)

*Actually, the AH mods have made serious efforts to clear out most of the really toxic stuff; I definitely want to acknowledge that as it's a much better place now.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

B0jangles wrote: »

Boards cannot have its cake at eat it - you can't have a subforum in which trans people are supposed to feel welcome on the same discussion board that houses forums like AH* and Current Affairs whose moderators fought very hard against any requirement that trans people be spoken of with even the barest, meanest, tiniest level of basic respect. The attitude which is so very apparent in those subforums tends to leak out and infect other forums, making the whole site a less pleasant place to be.

A few months ago I argued for days in Feedback that the very least that could be done was require posters to address people in the way they wanted - either by their names or by the pronouns they felt most confortable with. This basic degree of respect was strenuously resisted by the moderators in charge.

It seemed to be more important to those moderators to protect the rights of people to insult trans men and women than to protect trans people from being insulted.

(I see the OP has closed their account. What a surprise.)

*Actually, the AH mods have made serious efforts to clear out most of the really toxic stuff; I definitely want to acknowledge that as it's a much better place now.

What things do you object to? Is it just deliberate misgendering or is it other transgender-related discussions too?

end of the road

B0jangles wrote: »

Boards cannot have its cake at eat it - you can't have a subforum in which trans people are supposed to feel welcome on the same discussion board that houses forums like AH* and Current Affairs whose moderators fought very hard against any requirement that trans people be spoken of with even the barest, meanest, tiniest level of basic respect. The attitude which is so very apparent in those subforums tends to leak out and infect other forums, making the whole site a less pleasant place to be.

A few months ago I argued for days in Feedback that the very least that could be done was require posters to address people in the way they wanted - either by their names or by the pronouns they felt most confortable with. This basic degree of respect was strenuously resisted by the moderators in charge.

It seemed to be more important to those moderators to protect the rights of people to insult trans men and women than to protect trans people from being insulted.

(I see the OP has closed their account. What a surprise.)

*Actually, the AH mods have made serious efforts to clear out most of the really toxic stuff; I definitely want to acknowledge that as it's a much better place now.

what you were looking for had to be resisted as it is unworkable due to all of the variables involved in the issue and no accepted definitions across the userbase or society in general.
it wasn't the mods trying to protect the rights of people to insult transgender people over the rights of transgender people not to be insulted. in fact, insulting transgender people will still get you a bann.
but there are to many variables and there is still a lot of disagreement around variables and terms. it would be wrong for the site to try and enforce specific terms while this remains to be the case.
it's not like racism, homophobia etc where there is generally large scale agreement around what they mean, even though obviously there are homophobic and racist people in the world.