Secondary School Teaching Today

A97

I am aware that many threads exist on this subject, so I apologise if this is seen as going over old ground.

I am in the last year of an engineering degree. I really do not like it unfortunately. I don't think that innovation or research are for me as I find it very disheartening to work on something and to get nothing out of it. I also don't like that I can't ever get away from my work and that I don't know if what I am doing will actually be of any use to anyone. I don't like thinking that I am wasting my time which is something I am feeling quite a lot these days. I am someone who would measure a lot of their self worth in doing productive things and I just can't see myself achieving that in the engineering profession.

I really liked school when I was there as a student. Most of my teachers were good while there were others that I felt did not give their best or were not really suited to teach. Some had good classroom management, while others had serious trouble dealing with some of the badly behaved students, which affected everyone in an adverse way.

From personal experience, I have done some one to one tutoring in the past, both with my peers and with teenagers. I enjoy explaining things to people and I think that I am reasonably good at it. I have never taught in a classroom but I have had experience with larger groups of teenagers. Most of them were very nice and were willing to listen and learn, while others were very difficult to deal with. So in a sense, I think that teaching is something that I would enjoy and be enthusiastic about, but I could imagine some classroom environments being a bit hectic if there are some actively uncooperative students and that would be a bit of a concern for me.

From reading this forum, a lot of the teachers and former teachers here don't seem to be very enthusiastic about the job as it is today, and that concerns me too. I think that I would be qualified to do the PME in Maths and Physics. From what I have seen, those subjects are currently in demand and should help with getting hours.

I am looking for some advice. Is secondary school teaching worth getting into as a career right now? I haven't provided a lot of information, but do you think it would be suitable for someone like me?

Thank you for reading.

I'll also add that I don't mind doing something that could be seen as a little bit repetitive as long as I am good at it. Call me unambitious, but I would prefer to be an expert in something like a subject curriculum over pushing to create new knowledge.

Paulramone66

Reasons not to teach:
1 Salary cuts/Pension cuts
2 Constant change-a lot of it useless
3 Lack of Promotion Prospects
4. You pretty much do the same thing you start at in your 20s as you do in your 60s. In many ways its a slow death.
5. Schools vary hugely.
6 There will be more decline in term and conditions because most teachers are spineless gits
7 Long term they will reduce down holidays and increase paperwork
8 Once upon a time if a kid acted up-it was the kids fault but now the trend is to blame the teacher for lack of innovation and not meeting the kids needs.

Some of this was always the way.

PhilOssophy

You are doing it for the right reasons, i.e. you like the idea of teaching. Carpe Diem I say.
I'm not a teacher so can't comment on the day to day.
You won't be rich, but you'll earn enough to have a decent life.

Paulramone66

Paulramone66 wrote: »

Reasons not to teach:
1.Pension cuts

On a week we hear the public sector entitlement to the state pension is protected while the age is raised for those in the private sector, this is a bit rich.

Paulramone66

salonfire wrote: »

On a week we hear the public sector entitlement to the state pension is protected while the age is raised for those in the private sector, this is a bit rich.

Good point but new entrants will get 8k (pension) on average from their Employer. Im not sure if that is part of old age or not
Under the old scheme People with 40 years(which was very rare) got half their salaries but the old age pension was included in that
I would keep in mind that only the insane teach to 65. Given the poor parenting out there-nobody lasts until 65.

PhilOssophy

Honestly think people need to forget about gold plated pensions being a reason to join the Public Sector.
Before long, every worker in the country will be paying for their own pension. There is no alternative because the whole in the pension funding is just unsustainable.
But I think the OP isn't worrying about a pension, in fact he never even mentions it. So he wants to be a teacher, not for the holidays, not for the pension, etc.
I'd say go for it.

A97

I'd like to thank everyone who has responded so far.

Things like salaries and pensions are relevant to any job, and they are important things to consider. Like most people, I would like to work in a job that I enjoy and will get satisfaction from doing. Obviously that is in many ways a personal question that no one else can answer, but reading threads here and elsewhere has made me think that a lot of second level teachers do not like their job. That seems to be related to both systematic issues outside of the classroom, and the actual act of teaching itself.

I know that another issue that many new teachers have relates to obtaining a permanent position and getting enough hours for a working week. I would hope that teaching 'in demand' subjects might alleviate that problem somewhat, but I guess that my biggest apprehension about the career is if it is something that I will be happy to do as a long term job. I understand that planning and preparation are key, but I don't think that I would mind that if I can teach it to a classroom of (mostly) willing students. As I mentioned, I would be a little concerned about those who would be disruptive. It seems like those types of students wear out a lot of teachers over time.

PhoenixParker

Engineering is not a good degree for secondary teaching. Pretty sure you're not qualified to teach either Maths or Physics or anything else useful. Unless the teaching council have changed their rules.

(source - am engineer, briefly looked into changing to secondary teaching a decade ago)

A97

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Engineering is not a good degree for secondary teaching. Pretty sure you're not qualified to teach either Maths or Physics or anything else useful. Unless the teaching council have changed their rules.

(source - am engineer, briefly looked into changing to secondary teaching a decade ago)

The current system seems to suggest that if you can demonstrate that you covered enough relevant credits in college, you can teach a subject. Admittedly, this requires approval, so it remains to be seen if my modules would be deemed acceptable or not, but I think a case can at least be made.

PhoenixParker

http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/en/_fileupload/Subject-Declaration-Forms-Updated-December/Mathematics-Form-REVISED-.pdf

Engineers typically fall foul of the "at 3rd year" rule and also struggle because their courses aren't coded as maths by the university.

I'd check carefully before thinking anymore deeply.

Same for physics:

http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/en/_fileupload/Subject-Declaration-Forms-Updated-December/Physics-Form-REVISED-.pdf

I fully agree that engineers should be qualified to teach Maths, possibly with one or 2 additional courses included in the PME, unfortunately the teaching council doesn't agree.

You'll be able to add maths courses to meet the requirements from other avenues but just be aware that youll probably need to.

PhilOssophy

Engineers not allowed teach maths, but unqualified teachers are? The mind baffles.

A97

I studied a dedicated mathematics module in 3rd year, and also studied one related to Probability and Statistics, although it was taught out of the engineering department, which could be problematic.

For physics, I have studied quite a lot of mechanics since 3rd year. I have done electronics and acoustics/wave courses too. These modules were all from the engineering department however.

I would need to get an official decision from the Teaching Council, but it seems crazy that what I have studied would not be accepted. From a practical perspective, I have built on every major topic of the LC Physics course to some degree, with nuclear physics perhaps being an exception. I have also used a lot of the mathematics skills from Leaving Cert in my degree, although there are arguably more areas that I have not studied in great detail.

I do feel like I could make an argument for each criteria, but I suppose these things don't always make sense.

I'll look into it, but I am still interested in the experience of teachers and how they like/dislike the profession as it stands today.

jrmb

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Engineers not allowed teach maths, but unqualified teachers are? The mind baffles.

In practice you're "allowed" to teach any subject that a school assigns to you. Teaching Council accreditation is a separate question.

You should take a look at the Subject Declaration Form for Maths and see if you can complete it with modules from your transcript. I don't know much about the STEM subjects, but what about Technical Drawing, Engineering, Construction and other subjects?

jrmb

A97 wrote: »

I studied a dedicated mathematics module in 3rd year, and also studied one related to Probability and Statistics, although it was taught out of the engineering department, which could be problematic.

That module title sounds specific enough not to be challenged.

A97

I could definitely teach Engineering based on its form. I could also possibly do Technology. I wouldn't have enough credits for DCG or Construction.

Applied Maths and Computer Science are other options, but I think that Applied Maths might be a struggle to get enough credits together, and Computer Science is almost certainly out of reach as I did not specialise in Computer Engineering.

I had a preference for Maths and Physics based on their demand. Being qualified in more niche subjects or ones that already have enough teachers would make permanent and full time employment more difficult.

Although it is ultimately up to the Teaching Council if they feel that I have done enough to be qualified in each subject.

Edit: You also make a good point about specificity. For example, I did a module in 'Electronics' in which a significant component of it was related to Boolean logic. I imagine that I would have learned similar things to a Pure Mathematics student who did a module in logic, but it was in a different context. It also wasn't the entirety of the module, so would that count as a full 5 credits? A section to explain or justify module content seems like it would be useful for both the applicant and the person who processes the application.

Treppen

A97 wrote: »

I studied a dedicated mathematics module in 3rd year, and also studied one related to Probability and Statistics, although it was taught out of the engineering department, which could be problematic.

For physics, I have studied quite a lot of mechanics since 3rd year. I have done electronics and acoustics/wave courses too. These modules were all from the engineering department however.

I would need to get an official decision from the Teaching Council, but it seems crazy that what I have studied would not be accepted. From a practical perspective, I have built on every major topic of the LC Physics course to some degree, with nuclear physics perhaps being an exception. I have also used a lot of the mathematics skills from Leaving Cert in my degree, although there are arguably more areas that I have not studied in great detail.

I do feel like I could make an argument for each criteria, but I suppose these things don't always make sense.

I'll look into it, but I am still interested in the experience of teachers and how they like/dislike the profession as it stands today.

There's too much logic in this post op... I suggest you completely forget about teaching and being possibly qualified in this and that, until you've had experience of the teaching council.

Eventually...They'll give you a list of modules to make up.

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

On a week we hear the public sector entitlement to the state pension is protected while the age is raised for those in the private sector, this is a bit rich.

What are you saying there hasn't been pension cuts in teaching?

Somewhere in an attic there's a picture of you getting more intelligent by the day.

thegreatescape

This is my 2nd year fully qualified in 'in demand' subject areas. I've had no issues with steady work, paid during summers etc, but I am thinking of leaving the profession. After studying a 4 year teaching degree I thought I had a good idea of what I was getting into but I really didn't. I like my job, but I don't love it and I certainly can't see myself sticking it out for 40 years.

My advice as per other posters would be to look at other careers.

greenttc

thegreatescape wrote: »

This is my 2nd year fully qualified in 'in demand' subject areas. I've had no issues with steady work, paid during summers etc, but I am thinking of leaving the profession. After studying a 4 year teaching degree I thought I had a good idea of what I was getting into but I really didn't. I like my job, but I don't love it and I certainly can't see myself sticking it out for 40 years.

My advice as per other posters would be to look at other careers.

Not sure this is a great post, you dint like it but you haven't described any specific reasons why. We are all different. Its like saying I like apples but I don't love them so I recommend that people should eat other fruits instead.

I think better advice would be to try and get a little bit of experience in a school, see if you can do some supervision of classes which will give you some idea of the challenges of behaviour mangement etc and whether you are cut out for it.

I think people reading boards need to understand that many of the posts come from people who either love or hate their work, you are not reading the middle ground where lots of teachers are happy enough but not happy or angry enough to be bothered with contributing to a discussion like this. There are good and bad sides to all jobs and we all think the grass is greener on the other side. OP, try and get into a school and see for yourself what it is like and do read all the posts on boards as there is great info on here but dont let the bad picture that is painted turn you off if you think that the actually day to day job is something you would like. weigh it all up for yourself.

spurious

The first thing I learned pretty quickly was that not all students are like I was, or my class were in school. We kind of liked school, liked many of our teachers, liked learning about the subjects. My experience of teaching was never like the teaching I had experienced from the other end.

There are some students like that and you might be lucky enough to get them, but be aware it is not all 'Dead Poet's Society' and there are many groups out there who will destroy your love for your subject and any positive experiences you have had, if you get too many classes like them.

Add to that worrying about your hours, making ends meet, violence in classrooms, bullying of staff etc., it's really not worth it once it starts to get in on you. There are much easier and better paying jobs out there.

Hoboo

thegreatescape wrote: »

This is my 2nd year fully qualified in 'in demand' subject areas. I've had no issues with steady work, paid during summers etc, but I am thinking of leaving the profession. After studying a 4 year teaching degree I thought I had a good idea of what I was getting into but I really didn't. I like my job, but I don't love it and I certainly can't see myself sticking it out for 40 years.

My advice as per other posters would be to look at other careers.

You'll love the private sector. No daylight for 4 months a year, 20 days holidays and finishing every day sometime after 6 and hopefully before 8. It's great craic. Few more quid to spend during your 4 weeks off a year though. And Christmas is great. Christmas Eve and Christmas day,.two days in a row. You'd nearly get bored by lunchtime on the 25th.

Not sure many people love their job, the fact you like it is rare enough.

thegreatescape

greenttc wrote: »

Not sure this is a great post, you dint like it but you haven't described any specific reasons why. We are all different. Its like saying I like apples but I don't love them so I recommend that people should eat other fruits instead.

I think better advice would be to try and get a little bit of experience in a school, see if you can do some supervision of classes which will give you some idea of the challenges of behaviour mangement etc and whether you are cut out for it.

I think people reading boards need to understand that many of the posts come from people who either love or hate their work, you are not reading the middle ground where lots of teachers are happy enough but not happy or angry enough to be bothered with contributing to a discussion like this. There are good and bad sides to all jobs and we all think the grass is greener on the other side. OP, try and get into a school and see for yourself what it is like and do read all the posts on boards as there is great info on here but dont let the bad picture that is painted turn you off if you think that the actually day to day job is something you would like. weigh it all up for yourself.

Previous posters on this thread have described the reasons why someone shouldn't go into teaching, so I didn't feel the need to repeat them. Pension is shocking, the workload is increasing every year, dealing with parents has become increasingly difficult as well as the disrespect you receive from some (not all) students.

I've worked in particularly difficult schools, so behaviour is always an issue. I have plenty of friends who work in the stereotypical all girls, Catholic schools and they have their own issues besides behaviour. The point being that all schools seem to have their issues regardless of where you go.

I'd reiterate to the OP what this poster is saying, get some experience in a classroom and read up on the perks of the job that's on offer. Are the summers worth it for what you put up with on a daily basis.

thegreatescape

Hoboo wrote: »

You'll love the private sector. No daylight for 4 months a year, 20 days holidays and finishing every day sometime after 6 and hopefully before 8. It's great craic. Few more quid to spend during your 4 weeks off a year though. And Christmas is great. Christmas Eve and Christmas day,.two days in a row. You'd nearly get bored by lunchtime on the 25th.

Not sure many people love their job, the fact you like it is rare enough.

I have friends who work in the private sector with more holiday entitlements than this. If you're not happy in your specific workplace, why don't you explore other companies within the sector with better perks?

Or if teaching seems more attractive, why don't you give that a go?

A97

Thanks again to everyone who has given their input so far. It might be worth looking into getting some classroom experience for sure.

Having to deal with disrespectful students unfortunately seems par for the course, but it's unfortunate that conditions, pensions and an unnecessary workload are factors. I think that most people in society respect the importance of the teaching profession. It is a pity that the teachers themselves aren't treated better.

The ideal circumstance of teaching to a classroom of people who are all willing to learn really sounds like something that I would enjoy. It's a pity that there are so many other issues.

Sober Crappy Chemis

A97 wrote: »

I think that most people in society respect the importance of the teaching profession.

You’ve got to be joking right?
Teacher bashing is a passion for some people.

greenttc

Perhaps you should think about adult education? or third level?

Listening to you say that your ideal is teaching to a room of people who want to learn makes me think that maybe second level teaching may not be the way forward for you. Second level teaching is about finding ways to teach the people in front of you, many of them don't want to learn at all but you have to find ways of getting the information into their heads. Its not just about imparting knowledge to avid learners, its not about lectures, its about facilitating learning, finding out how your students learn best and how you can make something interesting for them enough to want to listen. It is kind of like a puzzle, working out what works best for each class and each student and that might mean teaching in several different ways all at the same time. It also means keeping the class under control so that everyone has a chance to learn, there are some kids who just don't want to be there but you have to find ways of occupying them so that the rest of the class can learn. Managing that classroom is as big a part of teaching as passing on knowledge.

A97

Sober Crappy Chemis wrote: »

You’ve got to be joking right?
Teacher bashing is a passion for some people.

Yes I'm aware that teachers get a hard time from some, but I meant that teaching as an institution is something that I thought that most people respect, as it is such an important part of developing pretty much everyone in society. The world benefits significantly from good teachers and it should be held on high regard.

greenttc wrote: »

Perhaps you should think about adult education? or third level?

The issue with third level is that most lecturers do teaching as a small part of a much more diverse research career. I don't want a research career. Adult education might be an option, but I wonder what I could contribute there. I feel that I have a good understanding of the school system from a student perspective, but obviously I don't know what the classroom is like from a teacher's perspective.

Snapgal

My advice is not to go into it. This is coming from a teacher with 17 years experience plus with so called “ in demand” subjects of Irish and MFL. Really boils my blood when I head people saying that “ oh you have in demand subjects you will walk into a job”. For last few years since moving nearer home due to reasons such as very few own hours contracts, nepotism, parochial GAA politics am still subbing. I am going back to college next September to start a new post graduate course.
Since I started teaching it has become very hard. Am very passionate about my subjects which students have said to me but the content of new Junior Cycle curriculum really is making students hate my subjects especially Irish. Some parents don’t see how much work goes into the work we do and some still carry a grudge for their own days in school that they instill view in their children that teachers are lazy and incompetent.
I used to spend every evening in work till nearly 6pm after school, coach sports teams, do evening debating/quizzes, give up lunches volunteering doing teaching council and other extracurricular activities but have stopped doing them as my mental health more important plus I see in interview it means nothing.
You are young and life is too short. If I were back in my 20s again I would travel. Life is too short.

delbhouy

OP- I was in an identical situation to you. Finished an B-Eng, did a few years work and wanted a change. Always thought I'd like teaching. Went for it and ran into difficulty with the teaching council.

Prior to the teaching council, people with engineering degrees did not have any difficulty with recognition. For example a college friend of mine went straight into teaching after college and had no difficulty, by the time I got around to it, the TC had just come into existence.

Long story short after a long battle with them and an appeals process along with a box of lecture notes, exams and recommendations from teacher associations I was declined. I had completed my teacher training at this stage. Compromise was to complete the final year of a maths degree through the arts faculty. Once completed I was allowed to register with the TC for maths and applied maths.

Funny thing is I did no extra applied maths, makes me believe I should have been registered for applied maths in the first place.

I live teaching and even with the hassle in registration it was the best decision I made.

Feel free to PM if you feel the need.

PhilOssophy

thegreatescape wrote: »

Are the summers worth it for what you put up with on a daily basis.

Except the OP never mentioned holidays as a motivation?

thegreatescape

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Except the OP never mentioned holidays as a motivation?

I never insinuated the OP was motivated by this. Taking one sentence of my post in isolation is hardly representative of what I said. To remind you of my advice to the OP: "I'd reiterate to the OP what this poster is saying, get some experience in a classroom and read up on the perks of the job that's on offer." The most obvious perk being the holidays.