Marriage separation

LegacyUser

Hi, hoping for some perspective/feedback on current marriage issues - some background info - been married for over 15 years, have three great kids all of whom are doing well both socially and academically thankfully. My wife and I, particularly of late, are not getting on well. My wife and I both work, me five day's a week and my wife three, This is an ongoing thing but cleanliness dominates the household, my wife likes to hoover the house everyday both upstairs and downstairs, polish all the surfaces and generally make sure everything is in its place, per se. I think this is excessive and have communicated this over the years but to no avail, so I've been taken to doing this when I get home from work (if she is working, or busy doing something else), I also generally help around the house, do all the washing/drying up, chauffeur the kids everyday and cook when I'm off (Sometimes I cheat and get takeaway).
Now that I read what I've just written back I can see I'm rambling, anyways If the house isn't cleaned like she likes then she "can't relax" - her words, this also means that If one of the kids makes toast and spill crumbs that I need to be on alert & clean up quickly, or she gets cross. I generally feel like I spend all my time peacekeeping. There's other issues too, over Xmas I was doing some DIY with furniture my daughter got for Christmas, I got up early, hovered and cleaned everywhere, cleaned out the fire and then asked my wife if she wanted help with anything else before I started building the furniture, she said "no"., so i started building the furniture, I finished up about 4 hours later, had a shower, came down to the kitchen where my wife was cooking dinner, and sat down and turned on the TV. She said "will you wash up the pots", "I said - I've just sat down", she then proceeded to bollock me out of it, I got up and started cleaning the pots, I asked "could these not wait until I would be doing the Washing up in it's entirety later", I was told that they could not as she always does them this way, she also said "just leave it altogether, I'll do it myself" , I continued to do it and got the cold shoulder for the rest of that day, and the next 5 days any time I tried to speak to her got a short response. Eventually I approached her and asked what the problem was, she stated that she was "so angry that I wouldn't do the pots". I said that the anger and length of time seemed disproportionate in relation to the "pots incident". I also brought up that any time I ask does she want to go out like cinema or dinner she says no, that she doesn't like socialising, I mentioned that she went out with her work colleagues over Xmas and it didn't seem a problem then, she got irate with this and said I was a control freak and controlling who she goes out with, I explained that wasn't what I communicated and that my point it that she didn't want to go out with me and had no issue socialisng selectively. I also asked whether she would consider "Couples therapy" as we've been having recurring issues mostly related to cleaning for some time, she said firstly that why should she bare her soul to some other person,and secondly that we couldn't afford it, I tried to reason with this explaining that at worst case we could say we gave it a shot and failed, but best case be that we find mutual room for improvement in the marriage, She basically wouldn't discuss anymore and left the room. Sorry, I know this is a bit rambling and maybe I could have put this better, but I barely slept all night thinking about this. I'm at my wits end and really don't know what else to do. Appreciate any feedback and happy to expand upon any areas where I've been vague

Honeydew3456

Hi op,

I wonder is the excessive cleaning and being angry about it not being done in a certain way at a certain time an indication of an underlying anxiety?

First major red flag that I would be very unhappy about is the not willing to go out with you. How long has it been like this?

Second major red flag is not wanting to discuss going to counselling. She knows you are worried about your relationship and doesn't seem bothered about your feelings here. In fact has dismissed them. This could be because she is caught up on her own issues though.

When was the last time you seen her happy and relaxed?

What age are your children?

Sunny Disposition

Sounds like there are a few mental health issues there tbh, especially with the cleaning.

Millionaire only not

<snipped>

Mod:

Millionaire only not, you've been banned for two weeks because in spite of repeated requests and warnings you are refusing to take the forum seriously and post anything helpful to any OP.

izzyflusky

I can really relate to your wife unfortunately, and it only got worse after having my second child. One of the things I was diagnosed with was anxiety (eventually).

There isn't anything you can really do, other than try to talk to her to see if she would speak to her gp about how she is feeling, or maybe get a close friend or family member to do it.

I'm ashamed to say that I would be one for refusing to talk things through as well which only feeds into it because silly issues end up becoming overwhelming and blowing out of proportion. Sorry not to be of more help but in this instance I think you can only encourage her to take the right steps (slowly and patiently), but ultimately is her that needs to make that decision.

Other than that, it sounds like you are a very caring and supportive husband so I really feel for you.

Moshman

Not knowing your situation aside from what you've told us, it appears to me that you've become a doormat for your wife to wipe her boots on. Doesn't appear to me that there's any love or respect in the relationship coming from her side. All her frustration and annoyance appears to be heaped on you. I don't know if there's a mental health aspect but, even if there is, you have to look after your own health. Maybe, it your wife won't go to a counsellor with you, then, you should go yourself.

LegacyUser

Thanks all for your replies - A lot of what you've stated rings through, the not talking, the blaming me for everything. I've kept my head down and tried to appease her, now that I reflect upon my life I've totally lost sight of myself. I'm tired of being an actor - thanks again for your feedback, it's a new thing for me to reach out and ask for outside perspective. I've a lot to think about

zoobizoo

Hey OP.

My mother was a bit like this when we were growing up. It wasn't fun.

It's not couples counselling you need right now, she needs counselling for herself.

She is a slave to the cleaning and unfortunately you are too now.

What does she feeel might happen if the floors weren't vacuumed or the surfaces weren't polished? There are deeper issues here.

Id be worried about the impact of kids living in fear of something being pit of place or crumbs left here or there. It will create anxious adults.

What's more important, a relaxed environment where a family can all sit and enjoy or hoovering?

Your wife needs to go talk to someone.

LegacyUser

zoobizoo wrote: »

Hey OP.

My mother was a bit like this when we were growing up. It wasn't fun.

It's not couples counselling you need right now, she needs counselling for herself.

She is a slave to the cleaning and unfortunately you are too now.

What does she feeel might happen if the floors weren't vacuumed or the surfaces weren't polished? There are deeper issues here.

Id be worried about the impact of kids living in fear of something being pit of place or crumbs left here or there. It will create anxious adults.

What's more important, a relaxed environment where a family can all sit and enjoy or hoovering?

Your wife needs to go talk to someone.

Thanks - I've used this very sentiment many times when trying to discuss what was priority - peace or cleanliness, but I get the response that she cant't relax - therefore neither can anyone else it would seem. My head is all over the place, not sure what to do for the best!

Honeydew3456

Anon123334455 wrote: »

Thanks - I've used this very sentiment many times when trying to discuss what was priority - peace or cleanliness, but I get the response that she cant't relax - therefore neither can anyone else it would seem. My head is all over the place, not sure what to do for the best!

For now maybe get yourself into counselling. It will help you with your thought process and focus your mind on what is important to you. It was also provide you with the tools to effectively communicate and validate your feelings in all this.

ILoveYourVibes

Hi OP i am not diagnosing. Only an expert can.
Just to be clear i am NOT suggesting your partner has a disorder or doesn't. Nor am I giving ....mental advice. I am just sharing personal experience. I am not an expert. Sorry mods if it comes across that way ..just delete the post if it does.

But the diagnostic threshold for a mental issue with a 'ritual' is something a therapist will take into consideration so don't be disappointed. That will have to be diagnosed outside of couples therapy with just a therapist/psych and not you usually.

They may ask you to come in and describe her behavior for an outside view but only if she agrees.

People can be clean freaks without being mentally ill.

I am sharing some personal experience it might help it might not.

My mother was at a much much further extreme end of the spectrum ....and had been diagnosed with an issue about cleaning when she was 14 so she sort of grew up knowing she had an issue no partner had to argue about it. She was washing her hands at least one hundred times a day then washing the taps and putting bleach in her baths. She would have an emotional reaction if she couldn't carry out her rituals. She would cry or panic or get angry. Her rituals never made any sense though. A part of the house could be a mess but she would obsess over one thing. Like constantly checking she unplugged something an exact number of times. And she would have a set ritualistic way to do something. Even if there is a better way to do it ...she had to do it her way. Good news is she worked really hard and is amazing now. Its only certain times when she gets stressed it plays up.



But as i say ...your wife may have no issue at all. You could just have very divergent ideas/personalities when it comes to housekeeping.

Also ...getting her to come to realize obsessions are ...obsessive IF they are ..is a long journey. Its also her journey if it turns out that way. But it can be frightening for the person with the issue.


As for the selective socializing. I don't think going out with your partner is socializing. Its making time and putting in effort into your marriage. She isn't doing that.

If she isn't willing to do therapy maybe you could suggest a book for her to read on some of the issues you have raised. Do so with an open mind ...she may come to the conclusion that she has or has not an issue with cleaning. OR she may come to the conclusion is boderline on having an issue with the cleaning.

As regarding your issues as a couple ..if one person says there is an issue in a relationship THERE IS ONE. She has to accept that.

If you want to talk to a therapist and describe her behavior to them ....they will be able to give you some info ....or feedback and some ways to cope.

Also even if your wife isn't anxious about cleaning ....that doesn't mean she doesn't need to be flexible on that issue. When you live with other people you need to be flexible. It goes both ways. Just because a HABIT doesn't cause emotional distress doesn't mean its not something you don't have to bend for other people. There doesn't have to be an underlying issue for her to need to change that. You don't need to have it validated to say it bothers you It bothers you that should bother her. Even if she doesn't have an issue anxiety wise her habits are not your fault. Neither is her rigidity about them. A therapist shouldn't have to validate you and your emotions to her. If its necessary that is also an issue. Because its like GAS LIGHTING you

Its like the odd couple...both partners have to adjust to find the middle road.

Lily_Aldrin7

izzyflusky wrote: »

I can really relate to your wife unfortunately, and it only got worse after having my second child. One of the things I was diagnosed with was anxiety (eventually).

There isn't anything you can really do, other than try to talk to her to see if she would speak to her gp about how she is feeling, or maybe get a close friend or family member to do it.

I'm ashamed to say that I would be one for refusing to talk things through as well which only feeds into it because silly issues end up becoming overwhelming and blowing out of proportion. Sorry not to be of more help but in this instance I think you can only encourage her to take the right steps (slowly and patiently), but ultimately is her that needs to make that decision.

Other than that, it sounds like you are a very caring and supportive husband so I really feel for you.

Same here! I have this obsession with cleanliness! I’ve tried to stop it but if there is one thing that’s not clean/tidy it bothers me to the point that I can’t relax or sleep at night. This affects my whole life as I have two young children and I get very upset with them when they won’t tidy up their toys the way I want them to, not to mention my poor partner who doesn’t mind a mess and can never do things the way I like them anyway. I know something is wrong with me but there is no point even mentioning to my GP as last time I did, I was told to go out more and leave the housework... the whole point is that I can’t ... I often apologise to my partner though, maybe talk to your wife and ask if you can help her fight her depression/anxiety in some way. If there is anything you could do together even going for walks etc

ILoveYourVibes

Lily_Aldrin7 wrote: »

Same here! I have this obsession with cleanliness! I’ve tried to stop it but if there is one thing that’s not clean/tidy it bothers me to the point that I can’t relax or sleep at night. This affects my whole life as I have two young children and I get very upset with them when they won’t tidy up their toys the way I want them to, not to mention my poor partner who doesn’t mind a mess and can never do things the way I like them anyway. I know something is wrong with me but there is no point even mentioning to my GP as last time I did, I was told to go out more and leave the housework... the whole point is that I can’t ... I often apologise to my partner though, maybe talk to your wife and ask if you can help her fight her depression/anxiety in some way. If there is anything you could do together even going for walks etc

Maybe try another GP?
Sorry you are suffering Lily. I think its really brave you went for help.

shesty

It might be a control thing a bit too.Not of you, just you know, kids make your life a bit out of control and the one thing you have control over is the cleanliness.(coming from a bit of a neat freak here too).
However I think it is mainly her problem, and she does need to talk to some about it.

CoBo55

I went through all that when married first. With both of you working as we were as well, I bought a dishwasher, she huffed and puffed about it for a few days, it couldn't clean dishes as well as she ( I ) could blah blah blah, bring it back to the shop etc. I just kept putting everything into it and she wouldn't be without it now. The cleaning hasn't really changed, I just give her a hand when it's being done and get it over with, it doesn't take long and I'm getting handy enough at doing it properly. It does get easier over time, just get on with it as you won't cure it.

On the plus side, I'd sooner have a clean wife rather than a dirty slob lying on the sofa all day, be grateful for what you have.

LegacyUser

CoBo55 wrote: »

I went through all that when married first. With both of you working as we were as well, I bought a dishwasher, she huffed and puffed about it for a few days, it couldn't clean dishes as well as she ( I ) could blah blah blah, bring it back to the shop etc. I just kept putting everything into it and she wouldn't be without it now. The cleaning hasn't really changed, I just give her a hand when it's being done and get it over with, it doesn't take long and I'm getting handy enough at doing it properly. It does get easier over time, just get on with it as you won't cure it.

On the plus side, I'd sooner have a clean wife rather than a dirty slob lying on the sofa all day, be grateful for what you have.

I hear what you're saying, trust me I've tried and tried to help. I either can't do it like her, or should have known not to do it a certain way. I've been trying everything to avoid conflict and spare the drama that arises ftom it for everyone in the house. It's basically all i do until she sits down then we goto separate rooms and do our own thing. I really feel that if she sought help her life could improve dramatically, but she's not open to it. I'm going around with my heart in my mouth all the time, some of the advice here has been great, i really appreciate it. I'm just so frustrated that most likely we are going to separate as she won't engage with me without playing the victim. I've tried since talking to her calmly and reasonably, she just walked away. It's so frustrating

kerryjack

Leave her at it; do you have a shed and garden. That's what we do, she takes care of inside and I look after the outside, build yourself a nice gazebo in the garden with a little cooler box in it for a few beers, great job to relax in the summer.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Stop doing what your told your not a child, free yourself from it all, just say nah I'm away out for a walk, if she's giving you the cold shoulder don't let it get to you. Do what you think is an appropriate amount in the home and leave it at that. You only have yourself to blame for allowing her abuse you like this

Ann84

Can I ask how intimate you are as a couple? Do you hold hands, cuddle, kiss (even for brief moments)?
Do you spend time together, go for walks, nights away, cinema... share experiences together?

To me, the cleaning is a symptom of a deeply unhappy person, it’s a distraction - something to do and should be background noise... I’m not saying she won’t care about mess if she was happy, but it wouldn’t be the only thing connecting you, it’d just be something to do before heading out to do something fun together...
Maybe maintaining your clean house is all she feels you two have in common?

tara73

OP, I have some first hand experience with a person like this. maybe not tothat extreme, but close to.
If anybody would have mentioned counselling to them they would have flat out refused, like your wife did and actually would have made you feel like: how dare you suggesting that to me, you want to insult/hurt me..
manipulative, nasty behaviour.

As mentioned here already, people like this have deeper issues, but we are not qualified here to mention diagnoses.

It's a dilemma for you as you are left alone with this and she won't get help/acknowledge it can't go on and is damaging her whole family.

The person I know never got an ultimatum and I often think it would have been very good the spouse would have given one.
So my idea is, why not giving her an ultimatum. I don't know how long this issue is there, but if she refuses for years now to get help and change her behaviour, let her know that you are not enduring this for the rest of your life. You seem like such a nice husband, probably too nice for her. Start letting her know that you are not letting yourself be commanded around like this for the rest of your life and that she needs to do something about it. Very important, stick to it and don't let yourself be reeled in again doing the washing up whenever she demands it so she sees you mean business.


start with this and see whether she changes.

LegacyUser

tara73 wrote: »

OP, I have some first hand experience with a person like this. maybe not tothat extreme, but close to.
If anybody would have mentioned counselling to them they would have flat out refused, like your wife did and actually would have made you feel like: how dare you suggesting that to me, you want to insult/hurt me..
manipulative, nasty behaviour.

As mentioned here already, people like this have deeper issues, but we are not qualified here to mention diagnoses.

It's a dilemma for you as you are left alone with this and she won't get help/acknowledge it can't go on and is damaging her whole family.

The person I know never got an ultimatum and I often think it would have been very good the spouse would have given one.
So my idea is, why not giving her an ultimatum. I don't know how long this issue is there, but if she refuses for years now to get help and change her behaviour, let her know that you are not enduring this for the rest of your life. You seem like such a nice husband, probably too nice for her. Start letting her know that you are not letting yourself be commanded around like this for the rest of your life and that she needs to do something about it. Very important, stick to it and don't let yourself be reeled in again doing the washing up whenever she demands it so she sees you mean business.


start with this and see whether she changes.

Thanks tara73, I did actually mention in our last conversation that I couldn't continue like this for the rest of my life, I also suggested that she was cheating herself, so not exactly an ultimatum but definitely an assertion of how i feel. Since then - two days ago, she has basically ignored me. TBH - i feel validated in what I said, and am going to stick to my guns, I'm going to leave her have a little space then if she doesn't come talk to me then I'll go talk to her. Depending on the response i get, i may have to consider spelling it out in terms of an ultimatum. When I consider how I feel, I really do feel aligned with the approach that something has to change because the issues will not just remedy themselves. I want to be sure that I leave no stone unturned, per se, before we decide that separation is the only option. As i've said before, at the very least then I can say that I've tried everything and it may ever so slightly lessen the heartbreak that our kids will inevitably have to endure when dealing with fallout. BTW - thanks everyone, it's helping so much to express and receive others feedback, I've never used this medium before and it's genuinely been so helpful. Thank you

meeeeh

Whatever issues your wife has her silent treatment after arguments is controlling and abusive behaviour. Just because she doesn't hit you it doesn't mean she is not abusive, you are walking on shells around her and that's no way to live. You might want to contact Anyman to get some advice and support.

LegacyUser

Anon123334455 wrote: »

... I also brought up that any time I ask does she want to go out like cinema or dinner she says no, that she doesn't like socialising, I mentioned that s then, she got irate with this and said I was a control freak and controlling who she goes out with, I explained that wasn't what I communicated and that my point it that she didn't want to go out with me and had no issue socialisng selectively.

Alarm bells everywhere, right here. Somebody already asked what your intimacy level is. That's by far the most important question here. If it's as abysmal as her unwillingness to go out on a date with her husband then I would be thinking seriously about the future of this relationship. Yes, you'll be screwed financially by it, but life is very short. You deserve a girl who'll overcome the quotidian obstacles life throws at us all - including the anxiety which this woman clearly exudes - to hold your hand and love you. You're selling yourself short by not having love, time together and companionship. On the point of your not having time together, you are being neglected here, and make absolutely no mistake about that. Does she touch you? hold you? The basic intimate stuff? It's like a slow death if that's not in the relationship anymore.

Overall, you are clearly living in a tense environment and if she refuses to give you the time and intimacy that can give relief to that tension, you're destined for an ineffably miserable, lonely existence. Without fear of contradiction, I will say she will work you into the ground and go from one anxiety-filled self-inflicted crisis to another day after day after day, and you will be a fireman on call for all her dramas. Tension. Drama. All the time. Been there, done that. It was only when I said I couldn't take the loneliness and lack of touch any more, that she began to change. Unfortunately, once she felt she was back in my good books, it went back to the now established anxiety/drama/tension and neglect of my needs. Such unnecessarily hurt created by this. She loves me, but she cannot help indulging her anxiety. It's like I have to wake her up to tell her I'm here, next to her, alive and want her. She never wants me, unless she fears I'm going to leave. After all the hurt and neglect, fear of my leaving gets her love back. Such abject stupidity.

Your wife is not alone. At very best, there is a lot of really stupid, anxiety-filled, drama queen wives who take their men for granted and thus condemn them to a world of loneliness and starvation of intimacy. So many guys go through this needless suffering inflicted by anxious wives, and it's rarely acknowledged. Time and energy for the entire world - as with your wife going out with her friends but refusing to go out with you - except the fella who loves them and desperately needs their touch. Your wife clearly needs help. You need, at least, calm and to be free from tension.

I would suggest one serious thing for you right now: focus on yourself. It's a new year, so start reinventing yourself. Just focus on improving you so you'll be in a stronger position to leave if she refuses to change. Don't be as available. Start doing those fitness challenges of various hues. Become your own man again, because she has clearly forgotten that you are a man, not merely her support in keeping a home clean.

marieholmfan

Hi Anon1223344

Are you in the same bed and same bedtime ?
Do you have sex ?

If the relationship is still sexual then almost by definition there's still intimacy.

If she doesn't want to go to the cinema would she go for a mini break just the two of you?

woohoo!!!

I think go to a counsellor yourself, speak your issues, ask for advice and go with that. And tell her that you are going to do that and explain your reasons. The person may ask to see her or the both of you and again tell her that. As a previous poster also suggested, take time out to look after yourself, not just your wife and kids.

OP I think the time has come for an ultimatum. Tell her you are leaving, then she can have the house as clean as she wants all the time.

No amount of financial loss is worth that amount of stress. You will literally die decades too young from it.

marieholmfan

Deleted User wrote: »

OP I think the time has come for an ultimatum. Tell her you are leaving, then she can have the house as clean as she wants all the time.

No amount of financial loss is worth that amount of stress. You will literally die decades too young from it.

Don't take this advice OP. don't give your wife an ultimatum.

Tiddlypeeps

marieholmfan wrote: »

Don't take this advice OP. don't give your wife an ultimatum.

Surely if he is on the verge of leaving her anyway then it can't hurt to tell her where things are headed if nothing changes.

happypants

I’ve been through this myself, except I was the obsessive cleaning one. Basically I could not relax until the house was at a certain level of cleanliness. I couldn’t accept that It’s impossible with young kids, I was chasing my tail constantly. My husband like yourself, is great around the house and with the kids, but his standards wouldn’t be as obsessive as mine were. I just felt so overwhelmed and anxious all the time for no real reason, our kids are happy and healthy we have a roof over our heads and both have good jobs with a nice work/ life balance yet, I was just never content.

I eventually went to my gp and spoke to her about the anxiety, the obsessive compulsive cleaning, my moods and how I felt I was just dragging myself through the days, almost numb with an inability to be happy or content. I’ve been on a low dose of antidepressant now for a few weeks and I can honestly say the difference is night and day. I’ve never felt better, the anxiety is mostly gone, I can let things slide, I still like the house to be clean but if the laundry has built up or kids have toys everywhere I just get on with it when they’re gone to bed. I spend time enjoying them and enjoying family time instead of stressing! I’m so much more relaxed and it’s like a whole new lease of life for our marriage. We still plan to take some marriage counselling sessions in the near future to learn how to manage conflict when it does arise.

Having young kids changes women and it changes a marriage but it’s about compromise too. Nobody should be living in fear or with their heart in their mouths worried the other person will fly off the handle. You sound like you’re bending over backwards to keep up with her standards but she’s not willing to meet you halfway. Maybe encourage your wife to see her GP, obviously don’t tell her she’s the problem as she might get offended or defensive. Ask her is she feeling overwhelmed and anxious? Has she felt her mood is low? Is she getting any enjoyment from her life?

Personally, I’ve accepted that antidepressants are something I’ll probably always need, my mother would have got depression around my age too (34) so I could have been more likely to suffer from it myself. I just wish I went to the gp sooner instead of the last year and a half being a blur! My gp said she has so many patients in the same situation, women of a certain age with kids who are wearing themselves out with anxiety. I’ve taken up Pilates too, maybe it’s something she could look into, taking up a course in something she enjoys outside of the house and the kids. For 5 years I’ve been putting myself on the back burner because I’ve been so busy but now my youngest is 3 I’m finally feeling like myself again. I actually have the desire to do something for myself! It would be good for you to take up something for yourself too if you don’t already.

I wish you all the best, if your wife refuses to accept that she needs to speak to someone I’m honestly not sure what to say. It’s clear that you care for your wife and want to save the marriage otherwise you wouldn’t be losing sleep or even suggesting counselling so I really hope things work out for you! You deserve to be happy and your children deserve to have happy parents and a happy home.

marieholmfan

marieholmfan wrote: »

Don't take this advice OP. don't give your wife an ultimatum.

What's the alternative? Continue slowly killing himself day after day?