What businesses can you start in a private dwelling?

Dots1982

For instance, a B&B I assume doesn’t need any permission to begin trading.

What businesses (That depend on customers visiting the dwelling) can you just start in a private dwelling?

con747

To establish a Bed & Breakfast in Ireland you will have to comply with planning legislation, with regards fire safety and local building regulations. You will also have to be compliant with food legislation and health & safety regulations.

Hoboo

Dots1982 wrote: »

For instance, a B&B I assume doesn’t need any permission to begin trading.

What businesses (That depend on customers visiting the dwelling) can you just start in a private dwelling?

Might be easier to name ones you can't.

elperello

Rather than asking here it might be better to ask in the Planning Department of your local authority.

Dots1982

Ok, to be specific could you start a tea room or cafe in your private dwelling?

con747

Same health and safety issues would apply.

Dots1982

con747 wrote: »

Same health and safety issues would apply.

How come we don’t see little cafes dotted around ireland operating out of houses? No demand?

henryporter

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok, to be specific could you start a tea room or cafe in your private dwelling?

Food Safety Legislation would apply, as would Planning and Fire Safety

con747

And don't forget the insurance nightmare...........

elperello

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok, to be specific could you start a tea room or cafe in your private dwelling?

You would need to apply for change of use.

Dots1982

elperello wrote: »

You would need to apply for change of use.

And that would be a formality or very unlikely to be approved for a one off house in the countryside? Things like the need for parking spaces would have to be complied with to be granted a change of use?

elperello

Dots1982 wrote: »

And that would be a formality or very unlikely to be approved for a one off house in the countryside? Things like the need for parking spaces would have to be complied with to be granted a change of use?

Definitely not a formality.
The application would have to go through the planning process.

Hard to say without being familiar with the location.

Parking and traffic would be considered.

You might ask the mods to move this to Planning and Construction where you are more likely to get replies.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=876

Good luck with it.

u140acro3xs7dm

Dots1982 wrote: »

For instance, a B&B I assume doesn’t need any permission to begin trading.

What businesses (That depend on customers visiting the dwelling) can you just start in a private dwelling?

A knockin' shop.

duploelabs

If you're converting part of a domestic residence to a commercial entity, you will be charged capital gains tax for the commercial section of the building when you go to sell it

Gloomtastic!

You can start any business from a private dwelling as long as it doesn’t involve the public visiting that dwelling. Then you’re going to run into insurance and planning issues.

The only exception to this, I believe, is the government rent-a-room tax exemption scheme. Overseas students and interns are a pretty big market throughout Ireland.

20/20

Dots1982 Insurance can be expensive. Also for tea rooms small café there will have to be toilets, and I think separate disabled toilets.

antoinolachtnai

You can do bed and breakfast on a small scale from a house without needing planning. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print#part2

Tea rooms need planning but it is also a much more difficult business to run profitably. As well as getting planning you would need to pay a planning levy.

If you have some skill that would allow you to provide a service to local businesses that might be the best way to go forward.

Think and plan carefully. It may be good to try something for a season without investing too much or taking too much risk.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Become excellent at baking cakes. Especially children’s birthday ones, with icing moulds of cartoon characters. Advertise on FB & Insta.

pedroeibar1

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Become excellent at baking cakes. Especially children’s birthday ones, with icing moulds of cartoon characters. Advertise on FB & Insta.

Have you done the math? Not a hope of making money.

Also, if the 'residence' is a rental, there most likely is a covenant in the lease precluding business operation.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Have you done the math? Not a hope of making money.

Also, if the 'residence' is a rental, there most likely is a covenant in the lease precluding business operation.

Care to explain why there isn’t a hope?
Second point is moot as OP has asked about a home based business.

pedroeibar1

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Care to explain why there isn’t a hope?
Second point is moot as OP has asked about a home based business.

Do the math; even a few figures on the back of an envelope will show it's not a workable business model. Cupcakes all over again.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Do the math; even a few figures on the back of an envelope will show it's not a workable business model. Cupcakes all over again.

You made the statement, you do them. I beg to differ with you anyway, the raw materials are cheap, the processes are already there. I maintain only a fool couldn’t make it a workable business model.

danoriordan1402

If I recall you do not need planning for a B &B if you have less than 4 bedrooms, so a material change of use wouldn't apply, and your also exempt if your not in a Rent pressure zone - open to correction on this.
You will certainly need public liability insurance though

duploelabs

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

You made the statement, you do them. I beg to differ with you anyway, the raw materials are cheap, the processes are already there. I maintain only a fool couldn’t make it a workable business model.

Your scalability on small scale baked goods using a domestic setting is non-existent as you're stuck using domestic sized ovens which limit your production numbers despite having to run it all day long

pedroeibar1

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

You made the statement, you do them. I beg to differ with you anyway, the raw materials are cheap, the processes are already there. I maintain only a fool couldn’t make it a workable business model.

You made the 'great idea' assertion, go prove it, \i'm not doing your homework for you! Also, have a look at Duploe's past posts, he runs a SME food production company. You are way out of your depth. :D

IAMAMORON

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Do the math; even a few figures on the back of an envelope will show it's not a workable business model. Cupcakes all over again.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You made the 'great idea' assertion, go prove it, \i'm not doing your homework for you! Also, have a look at Duploe's past posts, he runs a SME food production company. You are way out of your depth. :D

It really depends on how much you are getting for your baking. It is a very workable model if the cakes are getting sold every day, dismissing the concept is foolish.

pedroeibar1

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It really depends on how much you are getting for your baking. It is a very workable model if the cakes are getting sold every day, dismissing the concept is foolish.

Then show me the figures that make it a very workable model / business!

whirlwind.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Become excellent at baking cakes. Especially children’s birthday ones, with icing moulds of cartoon characters. Advertise on FB & Insta.

I know someone that bakes wedding and birthday cakes at home and sells through FB

Jaysus I doubt there's much money in it from seeing them at it

makeandcreate

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It really depends on how much you are getting for your baking. It is a very workable model if the cakes are getting sold every day, dismissing the concept is foolish.

My MIL is a great, well known local baker - she bakes every other day I would say, bread, cake etc and her chucking another couple of loaves in or a tray of buns etc is grand in the scheme of things and she does. She also, like a lot of other at home bakers, undercharges but perhaps gets some pin money as she would have been at home anyway and is of that generation of farmers wives that did things to get by.
But at Xmas suddenly people want Xmas Cakes, tray bakes, puddings etc and she has no economy of scale, no wholesale suppliers and one oven - her costs are huge and she wont refuse them.
Then she does the odd wedding cake for family and friends that cost her hugely as invariably they have an idea of the perfect cake and so she buys special tins, tools, moulds etc - those suckers are not cheap.
It's at best a nice home hobby for her.
And what happens if you don't sell all the cakes? I've seen a proliferation of farmers markets across Ireland and it's heart breaking to see someone who has been told their cakes are good to sell, packing up a stall full of stock, as now when Irish people "go to market" most want to entertain themselves at the weekend rather than support their local makers and bakers.

The_Honeybadger

Home baking cakes etc. will net pocket money at best unless you invest in a proper setup and get volume. It can be done but it’s hard work and there are loads of bakeries around that have the market more or less sewn up. Even if you get the orders distribution is a nightmare. Hard business to scale with big upfront costs (relatively speaking).

Regarding working from home I’d say a huge number of businesses just start trading without the correct planning. It’s not advisable but generally you will get away with it unless you are reported. I have a seamstress next to me and there are cars pulling up and partially blocking my driveway morning, noon and night. It’s a right pain but I don’t complain as she is really nice and minds my kids sometimes

duploelabs

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It really depends on how much you are getting for your baking. It is a very workable model if the cakes are getting sold every day, dismissing the concept is foolish.

(trying not to sound like I'm putting my hands on my knees and leaning down but here goes)

Of all the SME food business sectors, the Small scale baking model is extremely saturated (Irish mammies like to bake and get their pin money) meaning your penetration to carve out a market share will take an extremely long time, also because of that saturation, your margins will be extremely tight as you'll be up against bigger fish with better purchasing power.
Couple that with your distribution which you'll need to do yourself as to bring on board an outside logistics company would not be viable. And then you've your shelf life to contend with, so you've to be on the road nearly everyday (oh did I forget about fuel costs too). You'll be making a tenner a day for 18 months at full capacity

pedroeibar1

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It really depends on how much you are getting for your baking. It is a very workable model if the cakes are getting sold every day, dismissing the concept is foolish.

The proposal was to bake and sell birthday cakes using FB, not to supply retail. The cakes then are made to order so let’s expand it to ‘celebration' cakes, so four could be sold in a day. (That is a big pre-ordered figure, particularly for a start-up!)

A domestic fan oven can fit & bake 2 trays at a time, that’s 2 cakes per bake, repeated twice

Assuming the operator is a competent confectioner, allow three hours per batch for prep, cook and icing/decoration time, so while the next bake is underway the icing/decoration can be done. Plus an hour for cleaning up. That’s about five hours labour plus 3 hours for delivery at €10 per hour = €80.

Ingredients for four cakes – flour, sugar, butter, eggs, flavourings, colourings, icing, toppings, decorations, bags/boxes/packaging, etc. Minimum €60. Add €10 for ESB costs and depreciation of the food mixer & oven (neither are designed for heavy use on a regular basis, won’t last a year). = €70

Assume the delivery cost – you will need to deliver to ensure product is right/meets customer requirements. . Factor in increased depreciation/wear & tear/fuel cost on car. Say €10 per cake so €40 per day.

Increase the insurance on your car to cover commercial use Buy appropriate Public Liability insurance cover . That totals about €1500 p.a. Allow €6 per day

So, it’s a daily base cost of about €200 for four cakes. That’s €50 each to which a profit margin and VAT must be added. Factor in the cost and effort for HSAI Certification, a HACCP, a bit of capital expenditure to upgrade standard kitchen décor and buy a separate fridge to meet H&S requirements, time for ingredients shopping, etc. etc., and the picture gets a lot worse.
Plus you still have to feed the family, collect kids, etc.

Great idea my ar$e!!

danoriordan1402

No money in cakes I can shed some costs for a small B&B from previous experience. Location is essential here, as higher rates are available for popular locations, the Ring of Kerrys, Killarney, Blarney Castle etc etc
Two room b&b , with double room and a triple room, have to be ensuite, you will need a dining area for breakfast etc, and for guests to relax in.
B and B ireland/Booking.com will take 10-15% commissions. This business opened from march to September and they have a very high occupancy rate for those 2 rooms, approx 300 reservations
rates can vary between 65 --> 85 for a double room and 90--> 110 for a triple room, take out the laundry/breakfast costs/toiletries etc say 10E per room, they can still clear 22-->25k profit per year.( minus tax) -
This is all minus the initial set up costs of beds/furniture/advertising/signage etc, obviously this is a home business so hard to account for time spent to clean a room(30mins) and hanging around waiting for guests in terms of getting a wage but its much better than cakes

IAMAMORON

Don't kill the idea..... It is baking a few cakes for starters. I don't think anyone is trying to monopolise an entire corner of the Irish confectionary industry here...

Your enthusiasm for annihilating the idea is great, but getting to € 200 a day in costs is pushing things.

Stick to producing 5-10 set brands of cake, this will shelter initial recipe expenditure. You can bulk up on sultanas and coca if necessary, shop around like.

I wouldn't be running out buying commercial car insurance either... ffs, tell your customer base they can collect the cakes at 5 or 6pm , they might like to see how the cake was baked and have a goo at your kitchen, pet your dog etc.

Your not costing an international operation here, we are talking local sales on a word of mouth basis, very doable.

The_Honeybadger

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The proposal was to bake and sell birthday cakes using FB, not to supply retail. The cakes then are made to order so let’s expand it to ‘celebration' cakes, so four could be sold in a day. (That is a big pre-ordered figure, particularly for a start-up!)

A domestic fan oven can fit & bake 2 trays at a time, that’s 2 cakes per bake, repeated twice

Assuming the operator is a competent confectioner, allow three hours per batch for prep, cook and icing/decoration time, so while the next bake is underway the icing/decoration can be done. Plus an hour for cleaning up. That’s about five hours labour plus 3 hours for delivery at €10 per hour = €80.

Ingredients for four cakes – flour, sugar, butter, eggs, flavourings, colourings, icing, toppings, decorations, bags/boxes/packaging, etc. Minimum €60. Add €10 for ESB costs and depreciation of the food mixer & oven (neither are designed for heavy use on a regular basis, won’t last a year). = €70

Assume the delivery cost – you will need to deliver to ensure product is right/meets customer requirements. . Factor in increased depreciation/wear & tear/fuel cost on car. Say €10 per cake so €40 per day.

Increase the insurance on your car to cover commercial use Buy appropriate Public Liability insurance cover . That totals about €1500 p.a. Allow €6 per day

So, it’s a daily base cost of about €200 for four cakes. That’s €50 each to which a profit margin and VAT must be added. Factor in the cost and effort for HSAI Certification, a HACCP, a bit of capital expenditure to upgrade standard kitchen décor and buy a separate fridge to meet H&S requirements, time for ingredients shopping, etc. etc., and the picture gets a lot worse.
Plus you still have to feed the family, collect kids, etc.

Great idea my ar$e!!

I would imagine that most people doing this are doing it on a casual basis, probably not registering as a business never mind for VAT, no HACCP plan or certification, insurance etc, separate fridge you must be joking. It’s the quintessential cottage industry.

That said, even stripping out the costs above, unless they are getting a huge premium for their products they are busy fools in most cases.

duploelabs

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Don't kill the idea..... It is baking a few cakes for starters. I don't think anyone is trying to monopolise an entire corner of the Irish confectionary industry here...

Your enthusiasm for annihilating the idea is great, but getting to € 200 a day in costs is pushing things.

Stick to producing 5-10 set brands of cake, this will shelter initial recipe expenditure. You can bulk up on sultanas and coca if necessary, shop around like.

I wouldn't be running out buying commercial car insurance either... ffs, tell your customer base they can collect the cakes at 5 or 6pm , they might like to see how the cake was baked and have a goo at your kitchen, pet your dog etc.

Your not costing an international operation here, we are talking local sales on a word of mouth basis, very doable.

Jesus, your ignorance of the market is laughable.

Your clients will be coffee shops and cafes, no private client will give you sustained business, so what makes you think they'll have the time to go to your residence when every other supplier will deliver to their door FOC.
But let's just say they will, you're now giving public access to your residence. Have you factored in disabled access and toilets as well as disabled parking. You'd also need a change of use planning completed which will result in a capital gains tax when you sell which I detailed earlier. Oh and you're having the public in? Put an extra couple of zeroes to your insurance premium.
5-10 different cakes??? You'll need an extra room to hold the raw materials for those.

Pet the dog? Best of luck explaining to your EHO that you've an animal in your production kitchen. I'm sure they'll love your 'sure be grand' attitude to your health and safety.

Look, I'm not saying there's way you can start a food business from your home. In fact, as Pedro mentioned, I run a small food production company that I started off from home. But at least do a bit of research before you spout off that a cake maker is 'a viable concept' to run from home

duploelabs

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Please address the points in my post rather than myself thanks.
My attitude is from seeing many many people, such as yourself, who assume they know what it takes to run a food production company. But have no working knowledge of the industry, yet assume they're back of the envelope codswallop trumps my 11 years of business

I've deleted his post and edited it from your post because it brings absolutely nothing to the discussion here. IAMAMORON, please don't contribute to this thread again. If you've got a problem, PM me.

The Gloomster!

The_Honeybadger

danoriordan1402 wrote: »

No money in cakes I can shed some costs for a small B&B from previous experience. Location is essential here, as higher rates are available for popular locations, the Ring of Kerrys, Killarney, Blarney Castle etc etc
Two room b&b , with double room and a triple room, have to be ensuite, you will need a dining area for breakfast etc, and for guests to relax in.
B and B ireland/Booking.com will take 10-15% commissions. This business opened from march to September and they have a very high occupancy rate for those 2 rooms, approx 300 reservations
rates can vary between 65 --> 85 for a double room and 90--> 110 for a triple room, take out the laundry/breakfast costs/toiletries etc say 10E per room, they can still clear 22-->25k profit per year.( minus tax) -
This is all minus the initial set up costs of beds/furniture/advertising/signage etc, obviously this is a home business so hard to account for time spent to clean a room(30mins) and hanging around waiting for guests in terms of getting a wage but its much better than cakes

B & B can be a nice earner in the right location but it’s tough work, early mornings 7 days a week in the high season, weekends off need to be planned well in advance etc. It’s not for everyone.

danoriordan1402

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

B & B can be a nice earner in the right location but it’s tough work, early mornings 7 days a week in the high season, weekends off need to be planned well in advance etc. It’s not for everyone.

All true - it still seems quite an older generation business, I wouldn't imagine there are many B&B's run by under 30's..

duploelabs

danoriordan1402 wrote: »

All true - it still seems quite an older generation business, I wouldn't imagine there are many B&B's run by under 30's..

That cottage B+B industry has morphed in to the Glamping trade, but it's all extremely seasonal and not something you can do unless you've a bit of land on your private dwelling

The_Honeybadger

duploelabs wrote: »

That cottage B+B industry has morphed in to the Glamping trade, but it's all extremely seasonal and not something you can do unless you've a bit of land on your private dwelling

Still a market for the traditional B & B / Guesthouse but nowadays with trip advisor etc you have to provide a consistently excellent service or you won’t last long. Location is absolutely key of course.

Glamping is very seasonal alright and if you want to do it well the setup costs can be surprisingly high. Probably less dependent on location as it is all about the visitor experience. I know of one doing quite well in a location that is far from a tourist Mecca. They have a bbq pit on site where they do food every night weather permitting etc., and they pair with other activity providers locally. It’s a nice setup.

danoriordan1402

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Still a market for the traditional B & B / Guesthouse but nowadays with trip advisor etc you have to provide a consistently excellent service or you won’t last long. Location is absolutely key of course.

This +100
I know from experience that you can get consistent high scores from Booking.com/tripadvisor etc for example and one super negative score will kill you. reviews stay on booking.com for 2 years afaik and its impossible to please everyone.

Mike3549

Re: Baking cakes.
We ordered some cakes in the past for birthdays and other celebrations from one of those FB groups/recommendations.
Never ever it was delivered, it was collection only. So the 3hour delivery for 4 cakes is BS.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Mike3549 wrote: »

Re: Baking cakes.
We ordered some cakes in the past for birthdays and other celebrations from one of those FB groups/recommendations.
Never ever it was delivered, it was collection only. So the 3hour delivery for 4 cakes is BS.

When they start costing in depreciation on cars, and providing disabled access toilets, it’s time to withdraw and leave them to it.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You made the 'great idea' assertion, go prove it, \i'm not doing your homework for you!

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You are way out of your depth. :D

duploelabs wrote: »

(trying not to sound like I'm putting my hands on my knees and leaning down but here goes)

When you post gems like these, you sound less like a couple of knowledgeable individuals offering advice based on experience, and more like two fellas determined to win an argument on the internet.

Nonetheless, I decided to take another look at the business model I was thinking of when I made my first post. So I visited their FB page. And this struck me:

Est. 2005

It’s been around since before Laurel/Hardy here started their little food production jaunt from their own home

My point is, don’t expect to retire off the takings in your first year, but if you want a business to run from a home, which may also generate other savings such as not having to pay for childcare, no commute etc etc, whilst also bringing in a wage, it’s yet another idea to consider. Notwithstanding the contribution of our resident Dragons, who possibly may be your competitors.

Best of Luck.

duploelabs

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

When you post gems like these, you sound less like a couple of knowledgeable individuals offering advice based on experience, and more like two fellas determined to win an argument on the internet.

Nonetheless, I decided to take another look at the business model I was thinking of when I made my first post. So I visited their FB page. And this struck me:

It’s been around since before Laurel/Hardy here started their little food production jaunt from their own home

My point is, don’t expect to retire off the takings in your first year, but if you want a business to run from a home, which may also generate other savings such as not having to pay for childcare, no commute etc etc, whilst also bringing in a wage, it’s yet another idea to consider. Notwithstanding the contribution of our resident Dragons, who possibly may be your competitors.

Best of Luck.

I think you missed my latter post. I did start a food production company from home 11 years ago, but again if you read my posts you'd see that it was the other posters reliance on a cake making sector that was my objection to the idea

pedroeibar1

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

When you post gems like these, you sound less like a couple of knowledgeable individuals offering advice based on experience, and more like two fellas determined to win an argument on the internet.

Notwithstanding the contribution of our resident Dragons, who possibly may be your competitors.

When I read poseur s#ite like the above I wonder what some of us are doing here and why others bother.

Gloomtastic!

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

When I read poseur s#ite like the above I wonder what some of us are doing here and why others bother.

Probably because like myself, you love business and if we can help people achieve their goals then all the better. However, there are ways of communicating your message without getting peoples’ backs up all the bloody time. Your contributions would be pure gold if you could just learn to stop typing at the right moment. It’s not that hard to do really.
The Gloomster!

pedroeibar1

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Probably because like myself, you love business and if we can help people achieve their goals then all the better. However, there are ways of communicating your message without getting peoples’ backs up all the bloody time. Your contributions would be pure gold if you could just learn to stop typing at the right moment. It’s not that hard to do really.
The Gloomster!

WYSIWYG, Gloomster, WYSIWYG. :pac::P;)

Ave Sodalis

I made a 5 tire cake for my mother's wedding as her gift, and good golly it blew any sort of budget out of the water. I didn't add it all up, but I would say I spent over €500, and that doesn't include my time which would be factored in if selling them. That does include things like tins that can be used again so we'll say it's much for a muchness. The only way to make any sort of profit on cake making would be to have a high enough volume to justify wholesale levels of goods. The cost of the fondant alone is astronomical. There is no way you could make birthday cakes of their liking on a small scale and charge people a reasonable amount to make them. At least, not without decorating them.