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The solution to CIE's financial issues? Nominal charge for FTP holders?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    hapime wrote: »
    This!!!
    You work hard all day and then you have the choice of the car or get the bus home sitting beside some scumbag, 50/50 chance that they will stink of BO as well.
    Too many people have FTP, seems to be all you need is a hang nail and you can get one.
    If you can walk/run like normal folk why are you getting a FTP?
    Going to the gym/football practice/a hike up the mountains and so on, why do they have FTP?

    I can honestly say there were occasions I felt guilty having to charge people high fares after waving past countless examples of the dregs of our society free gratis, especially if it was busy and people were forced to spend hours in close quarters with some of the worse examples.

    I have refused people because of the state of them as well as abuse and aggression towards me and other passengers and even got in a spot of bother when relatively new on the job for refusing to take an individual who was rank, a story for another time that one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    L1011 wrote: »
    CIE had absolutely no say in this matter

    Criticising an inevitability would have been a waste of air.

    Maybe so but it is an example of why the board of CIE, the individual companies and senior management are more agents of the state, DoT and Minister for Transport than they are officers of the companies they nominally work for representing it's best interests.

    Can you imagine the management of Aircoach or gobus or any other operator sitting idly by while their company is cut off at the knees and their operation whipped away? Of course not, their jobs are to protect their company and ensure it's survival and success.

    CIE management does not do this, they are there to run the company as the sole shareholder (the MoT) wishes, not to criticise government policy including the raw deal their company is dealt by the Free Travel scheme.

    This is at the heart of why CIE lurches from one crisis to another, when it suits the government it is expected to play ball while it is wilfully damaged by policy that is clearly against the interest of the company and on the flipside it is treated as an independent entity that has to take sort out it's woes internally as if it a normal company.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,949 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    hapime wrote: »
    ...If you can walk/run like normal folk why are you getting a FTP?
    Going to the gym/football practice/a hike up the mountains and so on, why do they have FTP?
    It has nothing to do with mobility. If a person has a disability which prevents them from gaining normal employment, they are usually entitled to a pass. Everyone with an intellectual disability is entitled to a pass even though many do not have a physical disability.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    It’s this banana republic all over. Always the victim, never to blame. I love the welfare state defenders too , you can be damn sure they aren’t working or at least aren’t paying the outrageous marginal rate of tax!

    You can't eliminate all fraud so the choice comes down to accepting it will occur and attempting to eliminate it as much as possible or having no system at all. But of course we can solve CIE's money issue by making the most vulnerable in society pay while trillion dollar companies pay nearly nothing and billionaires do the same.

    Before you suggest it both work and pay the highest amounts of tax


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    it's nothing to do with the left, it's to do with cost, for which it would likely cost more to administrate it and pay for extra staff then it would likely bring in.
    the scheme is the free travel scheme, if you are going to start charging those who are entitled to avail of the scheme then you may as well just abolish it.

    Why would it cost extra and need extra staff?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    AulWan wrote: »
    Just so you're clear on who, exactly, gets Free Travel Passes

    https://www.gov.ie/en/service/9bba61-free-travel-scheme/

    For example, those on Jobseekers do not automatically get free travel passes, so it would hardly be fair to cut money from their payment for this!

    This is over 25% of the adult population??
    Or 10% of non pensioners?

    Someethingg doesn't add up there - the criteria there looks pretty specific


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭silver2020


    anything free is abused by a large number of people.


    "Free" GP visits by under 6's and the number of under 6's attending gp's for a scratch on the knee or a sniffle of the nose is phenomenal. A €10 fee should apply.

    "Free" travel. Again, abused by many. The peak time restrictions should be brought back and a nominal €1/journey fee applied to peak local travel.
    A €5 return charge should be made to all non local zone trips at peak times. EG Train from Dublin to Kilkenny.

    So it still provides free travel, but puts a premium on peak times where space is a premium.


    An example of how it works is the €2/€1.50 prescription charge - when it was brought in the number of prescriptions filled dropped substantially and saved the taxpayer millions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    silver2020 wrote: »


    An example of how it works is the €2/€1.50 prescription charge - when it was brought in the number of prescriptions filled dropped substantially and saved the taxpayer millions.

    On one side of the ledger. What it didn't show was affect it had on those who honestly couldn't afford it. How many end up in A&E as they need to stretch out their inhaler till the end of the week or whatever. How many people died for the sake of a few million


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Caquas


    fritzelly wrote: »
    I thought it was a companion pass i.e. you can bring anyone with you? Didn't think it was actually a partner/husband/wife pass

    You only get a companion pass if you are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone. And then you can only travel for free when you are accompanied.

    If they can’t check your marital status for fear of the media, then everyone gets to bring someone for free. Just have your “how dare you” face ready!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    On one side of the ledger. What it didn't show was affect it had on those who honestly couldn't afford it. How many end up in A&E as they need to stretch out their inhaler till the end of the week or whatever. How many people died for the sake of a few million

    How many?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Addle wrote: »
    How many?

    Government's who implement such policies don't tend to to the research.

    https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/prescription-charges-backfire-on-uk-health-andnbspwealth/20203213.article


    However it seems significant


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    I know a couple of pharmacists who work in the north, and some of their customers wouldn’t even by sudocreme for their babies nappy rash or sun block for their holidays unless it was prescribed and free on the nhs.
    I don’t have any sympathy for people who don’t prioritize their health over discretionary spending.

    I think it’s a great country that respects its elders and incapacitated and allows them free travel. As usual, it’s the scroungers who take advantage that ruin such programmes for everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Addle wrote: »
    I know a couple of pharmacists who work in the north, and some of their customers wouldn’t even by sudocreme for their babies nappy rash or sun block for their holidays unless it was prescribed and free on the nhs.
    I don’t have any sympathy for people who don’t prioritize their health over discretionary spending.

    I think it’s a great country that respects its elders and incapacitated and allows them free travel. As usual, it’s the scroungers who take advantage that ruin such programmes for everyone.

    How many?

    How often do you pay for things that you're entitled to get for free? I assume you refuse to use two for one offers for example


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    How many?

    How often do you pay for things that you're entitled to get for free? I assume you refuse to use two for one offers for example

    I wouldn’t leave a baby uncomfortable because I refused to buy something that was easily available for me to buy.

    I don’t believe paying a nominal amount for a prescription has lead to suffering for genuine people and I don’t think paying a nominal amount to travel on public transport would either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    antix80 wrote: »
    The A&Es are filled with idiots with medical cards who won't wait a few days to see their GP.
    And the reason gp's are fully booked is because people can see them for free.
    ...
    Remember, these people aren't getting hampers of food. They're getting cash every week, and many are choosing to spend it on stupid things while undervaluing important things like transport and healthcare.

    Ya, when I hear about overcrowding in a&e I wonder why some of them are there, and should they be there at all.

    Same with patients not canceling free appointments and just being no shows. They’d have respect for the system if they were directly paying for their appointments.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Addle wrote: »
    I don’t believe paying a nominal amount for a prescription has lead to suffering for genuine people and I don’t think paying a nominal amount to travel on public transport would either.

    I'm sure there's someone who messed up and is an idiot and didn't take meds to save money and ended up in hospital.

    But there are idiots everywhere.
    antix80 wrote: »

    The A&Es are filled with idiots with medical cards who won't wait a few days to see their GP.
    And the reason gp's are fully booked is because people can see them for free.
    There's definite truth in this view.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Anyone remember back when we had free university fees ? A nominal registration charge was then introduced , which is currently a couple of grand ( and dont @ me about how its not 'free' you know what i mean )


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭silver2020


    Government's who implement such policies don't tend to to the research.

    https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/prescription-charges-backfire-on-uk-health-andnbspwealth/20203213.article


    However it seems significant

    We are in Ireland. Not the UK.

    Our prescription charge is €2 / €1.50, Not £9stg

    Social welfare payments are on average DOUBLE those of the UK.



    So, as another poster asked - can you show any Irish figures that show how a small nominal prescription charge has caused undue hardship - or "deaths" as you hysterically state.

    Please use an Irish source, not something from a totally different country


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,385 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    The deeply ingrained welfare culture is breath taking in Ireland- among a certain very vocal cohort (those that pay for nothing) there's an expectation that the "government" should pay for everything.
    Unlimited free public transport is insanity - a public resource that is limited by its nature should always have a limit on it. Our welfare rates are already amongst the highest in the world so expecting someone to pay a nominal fee to shift their carcass will be negligible to their standard of living.

    Same crap here with the so called homeless and free dinner/food parcel brigade. I can stroll into my local Aldi and feed myself (well) for €20 for a week yet these lot seemingly can't survive on the very generous welfare payments and fringe benefits. There's something very wrong with either how these lot spend their money or we are not getting the entire truth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,983 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    fritzelly wrote: »
    Free travel pass is a free for all - shouldn't be a free pass for everyone on disability unless your disability impairs your movement or you're over 66. Know a couple of people who are full of health on disability but due to their condition have a free pass - no reason at all for it.
    The number of people getting buses to work with passes is unreal
    Regardless it wouldn't help CIE as it wouldn't affect their income, just a few less passengers

    not every disability is visible. someone may look to be perfectly healthy and not be so.
    if you believe the individuals you know are committing fraud then report it.
    fritzelly wrote: »
    I've heard that story before and if it is so true then why is CIE not putting forward a case for limitations on its use? Hey we're losing millions because no one is paying for the service!
    Personally I don't see a reason for FTP to be used at any peak times - and before people come and say people have appointments, well hospitals are open all day long not just at 9am

    yes and they have plenty of people to see. appointments are available when they are available, and if someone is called to go to one at peak time, then that is when they go.
    the hospitals aren't going to organise their appointments in a way to keep people complaining about the odd ftp holder on peak time transport happy because it would in all likely hood make things more inefficient then they already are.
    Idbatterim wrote: »
    It’s this banana republic all over. Always the victim, never to blame. I love the welfare state defenders too , you can be damn sure they aren’t working or at least aren’t paying the outrageous marginal rate of tax!

    indeed, people like yourself complaining about a basic provision are always the victim.
    plenty of those defending the basic wellfare state we have which would likely cost us less then not having it, are working and paying taxes, some of us quite a bit, but instead of playing the victim, we understand why we have wellfare supports for those who need them.
    sure, some abuse it and they need to be caught and stopped, but if you want it gone altogether, be prepared to pay even more in taxes.
    Why would it cost extra and need extra staff?

    administration and enforcement costs.
    extra staff will need to be employed to make it work.
    waste of money tbh.
    silver2020 wrote: »
    anything free is abused by a large number of people.


    "Free" GP visits by under 6's and the number of under 6's attending gp's for a scratch on the knee or a sniffle of the nose is phenomenal. A €10 fee should apply.

    "Free" travel. Again, abused by many. The peak time restrictions should be brought back and a nominal €1/journey fee applied to peak local travel.
    A €5 return charge should be made to all non local zone trips at peak times. EG Train from Dublin to Kilkenny.

    So it still provides free travel, but puts a premium on peak times where space is a premium.


    An example of how it works is the €2/€1.50 prescription charge - when it was brought in the number of prescriptions filled dropped substantially and saved the taxpayer millions.

    it provides partial free travel with a pointless restriction for which the costs of sorting out would be better spent.
    space is a premium at peak times yes however that's just life i'm afraid. first come first served, and the inability to guarantee a seat is the only way things can work at that time of day really.
    the number of priscriptions may have dropped with the proscription charge but that doesn't mean people ar paying, but rather some may be forgoing them due to cost, which may not ultimately add up to saving the tax payer millions if that is the case, assuming conditions may get worse.
    a blanket statement of saving the tax payer millions cannot therefore be said or even believed with certainty due to possible variables.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Addle wrote: »
    I know a couple of pharmacists who work in the north, and some of their customers wouldn’t even by sudocreme for their babies nappy rash or sun block for their holidays unless it was prescribed and free on the nhs.
    I don’t have any sympathy for people who don’t prioritize their health over discretionary spending.

    I think it’s a great country that respects its elders and incapacitated and allows them free travel. As usual, it’s the scroungers who take advantage that ruin such programmes for everyone.


    Likely tale. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,983 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    antix80 wrote: »
    Nominal charges are the way to go.
    When things are free there's unlimited demand. Supply/demand economics goes out the window.

    Remember the London marathon when all the blacks turned up to take the free water, some with trolleys, even though they weren't even running. Free water bruv. https://youtu.be/KGXP_pF19F4

    The A&Es are filled with idiots with medical cards who won't wait a few days to see their GP.
    And the reason gp's are fully booked is because people can see them for free.

    "Free" travel should have a charge of 50c a journey for short journeys, maybe capped at €1 a day.
    GP visits should cost €5.
    A&E should cost €10.

    Remember, these people aren't getting hampers of food. They're getting cash every week, and many are choosing to spend it on stupid things while undervaluing important things like transport and healthcare.

    how much will my taxes have to go up to pay for the implementation, administration and enforcement of these nominal charges, that will probably in all likely hood increase over time?
    or if not specifically because of the charge itself, the hidden issues they may cause?
    what people spend their money on when it goes into their pocket is not my problem, and is no justification for charges to use services they have been deemed to be entitled to use for free due to their situation.
    a situation they will have had to provide proof for by the way.
    Addle wrote: »
    I wouldn’t leave a baby uncomfortable because I refused to buy something that was easily available for me to buy.

    I don’t believe paying a nominal amount for a prescription has lead to suffering for genuine people and I don’t think paying a nominal amount to travel on public transport would either.

    you may not believe it, but it doesn't mean that genuine people won't and don't suffer, you aren't going to know about it unless they tell you.
    Addle wrote: »
    Ya, when I hear about overcrowding in a&e I wonder why some of them are there, and should they be there at all.

    Same with patients not canceling free appointments and just being no shows. They’d have respect for the system if they were directly paying for their appointments.

    there isn't anything to show that to be the case apart from wishful thinking.
    if someone currently doesn't have respect for something, they won't start because they have to pay, because they are disrespectful in the first place.
    silver2020 wrote: »
    We are in Ireland. Not the UK.

    Our prescription charge is €2 / €1.50, Not £9stg

    Social welfare payments are on average DOUBLE those of the UK.



    So, as another poster asked - can you show any Irish figures that show how a small nominal prescription charge has caused undue hardship - or "deaths" as you hysterically state.

    Please use an Irish source, not something from a totally different country

    we are in ireland yes, that doesn't make us immune from having issues.
    we also have a higher cost of living hence our rate of wellfare payment.
    all leinster dub had to show is that a charge where it was once for free, can cause genuine hardship and he showed that. the fact it is in a different country doesn't really change that possibility or make us immune because the figures happen to be different.
    road_high wrote: »
    The deeply ingrained welfare culture is breath taking in Ireland- among a certain very vocal cohort (those that pay for nothing) there's an expectation that the "government" should pay for everything.
    Unlimited free public transport is insanity - a public resource that is limited by its nature should always have a limit on it. Our welfare rates are already amongst the highest in the world so expecting someone to pay a nominal fee to shift their carcass will be negligible to their standard of living.

    Same crap here with the so called homeless and free dinner/food parcel brigade. I can stroll into my local Aldi and feed myself (well) for €20 for a week yet these lot seemingly can't survive on the very generous welfare payments and fringe benefits. There's something very wrong with either how these lot spend their money or we are not getting the entire truth.

    unlimited free public transport is not insanity as long as the costs can be justified against the costs of not having it, which it seems it can be, for now at least hence the existence of the scheme.
    costs such as people being less active, being unable to get around, local economies etc.
    you and i being able to do something doesn't really have any relevance to another given people's situations, ingoings and outgoings differ.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    how much will my taxes have to go up to pay for the implementation, administration and enforcement of these nominal charges

    You mean the existing ticketing systems? Hmm

    Lower usage = lower costs


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,983 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    hapime wrote: »
    This!!!
    You work hard all day and then you have the choice of the car or get the bus home sitting beside some scumbag, 50/50 chance that they will stink of BO as well.

    so what? not the fact scumbags whether they smell of boo or not are a nucence, but the fact you work hard all day? that doesn't make us special as much as some may think they are gods gift.
    hapime wrote: »
    Too many people have FTP,

    on what basis do you state this to be the case?
    hapime wrote: »
    seems to be all you need is a hang nail and you can get one.

    quite thankfully, no, that is not the case.
    hapime wrote: »
    If you can walk/run like normal folk why are you getting a FTP?

    because you have a disability that doesn't prevent you from specifically running and walking.
    and there is no such thing as "normal" people. what is normal to you is not normal to someone else.
    hapime wrote: »
    Going to the gym/football practice/a hike up the mountains and so on, why do they have FTP?

    because they have a disability that doesn't specifically prevent those particular activities.
    it's not the 1950s anymore lads, you don't need to be in a wheelchair to have a disability. you don't need to be visibly disabled to have one either.
    yes absolutely there are some taking the piss and they need to be dealt with but that doesn't change the fact that because someone else may not think someone has a disability, it doesn't mean that they don't.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,983 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    antix80 wrote: »
    You mean the existing ticketing systems? Hmm

    Lower usage = lower costs


    lower usage doesn't equal lower costs if costs pass on elsewhere due to those users not being there, which it probably will. our fares.
    the existing ticketing system also hasn't got enough enforcement by the way. few revenue inspectors around, especially on the rail services.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭trellheim


    The reason IIRC for FTP is that those buses and trains were rolling around empty anyway so this got people out and about who otherwise would not. I dont object to the FTP


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Addle wrote: »
    I wouldn’t leave a baby uncomfortable because I refused to buy something that was easily available for me to buy.

    I don’t believe paying a nominal amount for a prescription has lead to suffering for genuine people and I don’t think paying a nominal amount to travel on public transport would either.

    How do you know it wasn't chronic nappy rash for which a doctors visit was required? You don't, your just up on your high horse judging the 'povs'

    You're nominal amount may not be so nominal for others.
    We should be extending free public transport to everyone not limiting it.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Posts with racist comments will be deleted.

    Others need to limit non-transport comments to things which are somewhat linked to transport.

    -- moderator


  • Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭thenightman


    Revenue from actual enforcement of bus lanes, yellow boxes, cycle lanes etc via traffic camera fines should be put back into public transport funding. No need to employ an extra army of civil servants and consultants to administer a 20c tariff on FTP holders. I know this would disappoint the thinly veiled right wing blowhards (one particular one on this thread!) as they wouldn't like the idea of not kicking vulnerable people when they're down.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,385 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Revenue from actual enforcement of bus lanes, yellow boxes, cycle lanes etc via traffic camera fines should be put back into public transport funding. No need to employ an extra army of civil servants and consultants to administer a 20c tariff on FTP holders. I know this would disappoint the thinly veiled right wing blowhards (one particular one on this thread!) as they wouldn't like the idea of not kicking vulnerable people when they're down.

    Both red herrings- the fantasy revenue you imagine from all these bus lane hoggers would amount to how much exactly? And that would cost nothing to administer of course?

    Why would charging users a nominal fee paid directly to the PT providers mean any more admin fee over and above the staff and machines already employed at stations, buses and ticket machines? Yea dismiss anyone that wants sensible public spending as "right wing". They must be racist as well surely?


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