The 2nd coming of the electric car

discostu1

Interesting piece

http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2019/12/16/the-second-coming-of-the-electric-car/

OH climate change again lol

John Hayes — a senior lecturer at University College Cork and an expert in the area

An expert, is that a fact ?

Well he forgot one extremely important fact no mentioned when he was comparing the emissions from battery production and that's Oil refining. That's a pretty big omission form a so called expert "senior" Lecturing in a University don't ye think ?

for the lifetime of an internal combustion it needs refined fuel and that's not energy efficient. At least electric cars can use any available energy on the grid and it doesn't need to be transported in diesel tankers + People can install solar PV.

He should research the proper facts before he starts lecturing in Universities.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Well he forgot one extremely important fact no mentioned when he was comparing the emissions from battery production and that's Oil refining. That's a pretty big omission form a so called expert "senior" Lecturing in a University don't ye think ?

for the lifetime of an internal combustion it needs refined fuel and that's not energy efficient. At least electric cars can use any available energy on the grid and it doesn't need to be transported in diesel tankers + People can install solar PV.

He should research the proper facts before he starts lecturing in Universities.

I think you might be a bit harsh in your analysis. Not much to argue about in his statement really...

While hybrid vehicles emit more carbon dioxide while driving than the equivalent battery vehicle emits due to the generation of electricity, battery vehicles result in greater emissions during manufacturing.

Thus, given the Irish grid today and international vehicle manufacturing, hybrid and battery vehicles have similar carbon footprints, and both are lower than the equivalent diesel or petrol vehicle.

He is saying EV's are better for emissions once made but they have high emissions during manufacture. He is saying hybrids and BEVs are close enough to each other in whole cycle terms but better than petrol/diesel. All true as far as I can see?

He also mentions improving the grid.

Seems like a balanced article to me.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

I think you might be a bit harsh in your analysis. Not much to argue about in his statement really...

While hybrid vehicles emit more carbon dioxide while driving than the equivalent battery vehicle emits due to the generation of electricity, battery vehicles result in greater emissions during manufacturing.

Thus, given the Irish grid today and international vehicle manufacturing, hybrid and battery vehicles have similar carbon footprints, and both are lower than the equivalent diesel or petrol vehicle.

The gap in emissions is even greater than he portrays if you take into account refining petrol and diesel or the fact oil has to be transported in takers that burn oil.

And does he think hybrids rely mostly on the battery ? is he basing this on a BMW i3 Rex or a "self Charging" Toyota hybrid because there's a stark difference.

KCross

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The gap in emissions is even greater than he portrays if you take into account refining petrol and diesel or the fact oil has to be transported in takers that burn oil.

And does he think hybrids rely mostly on the battery ? is he basing this on a BMW i3 Rex or a "self Charging" Toyota hybrid because there's a stark difference.

What is the gap? He didn’t give specific figures because it’s very hard to quantify and most attempts at doing it are biased one way or the other.

He’s just saying that BEV and hybrid are better than petrol/diesel, which is true.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

What is the gap? He didn’t give specific figures because it’s very hard to quantify and most attempts at doing it are biased one way or the other.

He’s just saying that BEV and hybrid are better than petrol/diesel, which is true.

He says the emissions of the hybrid is similar to the BEV not taking account the emissions created during the refining of petrol and diesel.

And we don't know what he considers fuel efficient because hybrids consume a lot of petrol, does he listen to the Toyota adds and assumes hybrids run on 100% electric power 50% of the time because that's completely false and Toyota should not be allowed to say this, it's false advertising.

The lower emissions come from lower pollutants of which electric cars emit nothing locally which is very important.

Hybrids still spew out toxic pollutants when the engine is running and particularly during warm up as with any ice my own Rex included but the Rex is running vastly less than any Hybrid.

Without facts and numbers all he said is meaningless.

...Ghost...

KCross wrote: »

I think you might be a bit harsh in your analysis. Not much to argue about in his statement really...

While hybrid vehicles emit more carbon dioxide while driving than the equivalent battery vehicle emits due to the generation of electricity, battery vehicles result in greater emissions during manufacturing.

Thus, given the Irish grid today and international vehicle manufacturing, hybrid and battery vehicles have similar carbon footprints, and both are lower than the equivalent diesel or petrol vehicle.

He is saying EV's are better for emissions once made but they have high emissions during manufacture. He is saying hybrids and BEVs are close enough to each other in whole cycle terms but better than petrol/diesel. All true as far as I can see?

He also mentions improving the grid.

Seems like a balanced article to me.

The part in bold. I have seen this argument quite a bit recently when it comes to the emissions for the creation of the battery, which is what pushes the manufacturing footprint higher for the manufactured product. However, they always fail to mention that the batteries are re-used and recycled, usually for energy storage.

SlowBlowin

Who is out there pushing "Self charging hybrids" the most, that is Toyota. This transition technology exists because most manufacturers have been caught sleeping by the likes of Tesla, and need to keep selling cars to survive.

Makes me mad, just like the lad.

Ohhhh and by the way, guess where he used to work before the university ????

Go on guess ????? Hes a old school motor industry man through and through. At the very time Toyota are sending millions pushing the Hybrids, out comes an expert, who used to work with Toyota, and gives them a bit of credibility.

"he pursued a PhD part-time as a Howard Hughes Corporate Fellow while continuing to work as a design engineer at GM. Subsequently, he worked as a technical manager on EV battery chargers and infrastructure. John led a technical team collaborating with Toyota Motor Company to revise the EV inductive charging standard SAE J1772. "

...Ghost...

...Ghost... wrote: »

The part in bold. I have seen this argument quite a bit recently when it comes to the emissions for the creation of the battery, which is what pushes the manufacturing footprint higher for the manufactured product. However, they always fail to mention that the batteries are re-used and recycled, usually for energy storage.

He had a lot to say but nothing to back it up which I find strange if he's a University lecturer.

SlowBlowin

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Who is out there pushing "Self charging hybrids" the most, that is Toyota. This transition technology exists because most manufacturers have been caught sleeping by the likes of Tesla, and need to keep selling cars to survive.

Makes me mad, just like the lad.

Ohhhh and by the way, guess where he used to work before the university ????

Go on guess ????? Hes a old school motor industry man through and through. At the very time Toyota are sending millions pushing the Hybrids, out comes an expert, who used to work with Toyota, and gives them a bit of credibility.

"he pursued a PhD part-time as a Howard Hughes Corporate Fellow while continuing to work as a design engineer at GM. Subsequently, he worked as a technical manager on EV battery chargers and infrastructure. John led a technical team collaborating with Toyota Motor Company to revise the EV inductive charging standard SAE J1772. "

Ha ha thanks for this, incredible.

Everyone has an agenda these days......

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

He says the emissions of the hybrid is similar to the BEV not taking account the emissions created during the refining of petrol and diesel.

How do you know he hasnt included them?

Deleted User wrote: »

And we don't know what he considers fuel efficient because hybrids consume a lot of petrol, does he listen to the Toyota adds and assumes hybrids run on 100% electric power 50% of the time because that's completely false and Toyota should not be allowed to say this, it's false advertising.

The lower emissions come from lower pollutants of which electric cars emit nothing locally which is very important.

Hybrids still spew out toxic pollutants when the engine is running and particularly during warm up as with any ice my own Rex included but the Rex is running vastly less than any Hybrid.

Without facts and numbers all he said is meaningless.

I'd throw that back at ya!

Where are your figures?

He isnt, imo anyway, trying to say that hybrids are emission free. hybrids also include PHEV's and he has specifically separated those from ICE.

SlowBlowin

Nice article in Marketing Week (5 years old) about Toyota's massive spend pushing hybrids:

https://www.marketingweek.com/toyota-ramps-up-hybrid-marketing-to-take-advantage-of-leadership-position/

By a strange coincidence they interview Toyotas marketing chap, Chris Hayes, who has the same surname as the expert, John Hayes, in fact you put pictures of the two of them side by side and they could be brothers !!

Hmmmmm.. surely not....

KCross

...Ghost... wrote: »

The part in bold. I have seen this argument quite a bit recently when it comes to the emissions for the creation of the battery, which is what pushes the manufacturing footprint higher for the manufactured product. However, they always fail to mention that the batteries are re-used and recycled, usually for energy storage.

Indeed. All the emissions are bundled into the one product... the car.... which is wrong but its a complex area to figure out how to get the figures and apportion them out. Likewise when it comes to refining and transporting petrol/diesel. The figures are elusive. He did make reference to recycling and reuse of the batteries so he isnt forgetting all these things either.

There is no doubt that EV is better than ICE and he is clearly saying that.

I just think its a step too far to rubbish the article and his knowledge/expertise because he lumped hybrids in with BEV.

SlowBlowin

Seems I am not alone at being angered by Toyota's "Self charging" adverts:

https://www.thejournal.ie/toyota-hybrid-falls-foul-of-ad-rules-after-misleading-cost-saving-claim-4796800-Sep2019/

KCross

KCross wrote: »

How do you know he hasnt included them?



I'd throw that back at ya!

Where are your figures?

He isnt, imo anyway, trying to say that hybrids are emission free. hybrids also include PHEV's and he has specifically separated those from ICE.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, he's the one giving lectures !

KCross

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not claiming to be an expert, he's the one giving lectures !

Fair enough, but it’s not an in depth article purporting to give fine detail in all emissions through the full manufacturing lifecycle either! You could write a thesis on that.

You’re expecting an impossible level of detail for a generic article that goes all the way back to the Model T!

I still don’t believe he has misrepresented anything. BEV and hybrid are better than ICE! I don’t think you’d disagree with that?

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Fair enough, but it’s not an in depth article purporting to give fine detail in all emissions through the full manufacturing lifecycle either! You could write a thesis on that.

You’re expecting an impossible level of detail for a generic article that goes all the way back to the Model T!

I still don’t believe he has misrepresented anything. BEV and hybrid are better than ICE! I don’t think you’d disagree with that?

No I don't disagree but I do disagree with his claim hybrids and BEV are similar in total emissions.

Mike9832

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No I don't disagree but I do disagree with his claim hybrids and BEV are similar in total emissions.

They are both crap

We should be stopping the crazy commute culture bull**** we have here and plant more trees, make proper forests, put tolls up every 20km, get people walking, cycling, on buses etc

Everyone driving around in battery cars is no solution, kicking the can

Mike9832

Mike9832 wrote: »

They are both crap

We should be stopping the crazy commute culture bull**** we have here and plant more trees, make proper forests, put tolls up every 20km, get people walking, cycling, on buses etc

Everyone driving around in battery cars is no solution, kicking the can

Yeah we need more forest but they are only talking about planting spruce crap because it grows fast which they can then cut down and sell, they are not interested in planting hardwood forest for the benefit of the land or the People, they only want to cut and sell it.

Ireland is the one of the, if not the most deforested land in the European continent. Just look at the forest on Google maps in the U.K now compare the green to Ireland it's a complete disgrace. Go to Germany and there are cycle lanes, forest trails everywhere for People to enjoy.

I have to drive 110 Kms to the new cycle way in Waterford, that's the closest proper cycle lane to me that's would be anything like they have in Germany.

Cycle out of Carlow town past the College and they have a white line in the hard shoulder that's a cycle lane.

I can't take my 2 small Sons out on their bikes on my local back roads because they are too narrow and with big hedges causing complete and utter blindness everywhere, traffic travels at high speed despite having to stop to let another car pass, it's a joke here they reduce the speed on good roads and put speed vans where they can catch People yet my local road has an 80 Km/h limit and you would be hard pressed to go more than 50 Km/h.

We're never going to see a network of proper cycle lanes in Ireland because farmers will never operate, we can't even get a proper public infrastructure, how long will it take Dublin to get a proper underground network ? it's not even being discussed, all they can do is put in more buss lanes, the Luas is a complete joke because it's incredibly slow.

I can't get a train to work because they are packed and don't run at the times suitable for me and then how do I get to the industrial estate ?

Tolls would not be acceptable because most of the work is in Dublin so People have no choice to travel and the price of Property is forcing more and more people out of Dublin and we pay enough tax.

The taxpayer has to subsidise the M4 toll because it's not used enough, did ye ever hear the likes.

Boy you got me on a rant there.......

Mike9832

Deleted User wrote: »

Boy you got me on a rant there.......

Well justified and your 100% correct

Castlekeeper

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah we need more forest but they are only talking about planting spruce crap because it grows fast which they can then cut down and sell, they are not interested in planting hardwood forest for the benefit of the land or the People, they only want to cut and sell it.

Ireland is the one of the, if not the most deforested land in the European continent. Just look at the forest on Google maps in the U.K now compare the green to Ireland it's a complete disgrace. Go to Germany and there are cycle lanes, forest trails everywhere for People to enjoy.

I have to drive 110 Kms to the new cycle way in Waterford, that's the closest proper cycle lane to me that's would be anything like they have in Germany.

Cycle out of Carlow town past the College and they have a white line in the hard shoulder that's a cycle lane.

I can't take my 2 small Sons out on their bikes on my local back roads because they are too narrow and with big hedges causing complete and utter blindness everywhere, traffic travels at high speed despite having to stop to let another car pass, it's a joke here they reduce the speed on good roads and put speed vans where they can catch People yet my local road has an 80 Km/h limit and you would be hard pressed to go more than 50 Km/h.

We're never going to see a network of proper cycle lanes in Ireland because farmers will never operate, we can't even get a proper public infrastructure, how long will it take Dublin to get a proper underground network ? it's not even being discussed, all they can do is put in more buss lanes, the Luas is a complete joke because it's incredibly slow.

I can't get a train to work because they are packed and don't run at the times suitable for me and then how do I get to the industrial estate ?

Tolls would not be acceptable because most of the work is in Dublin so People have no choice to travel and the price of Property is forcing more and more people out of Dublin and we pay enough tax.

The taxpayer has to subsidise the M4 toll because it's not used enough, did ye ever hear the likes.

Boy you got me on a rant there.......

I'm a country dweller and and a reasonable driver, not too slow or fast, but as is topical on another thread, road etiquette is gone to pot. I do a share if long distance driving and any night on country roads I'll be driving away between 60 and 100 depending on the terrain and I can be sure of some with spotlights tailgating me every 15 mins.
Anyhow, the thought came to me this am as I cruised home from rugby training that a non National road speed limit reduction, with enforcement, to say 70km/hr, could do a pile for road safety and encouraging cyclists and pedestrians back on the roads.
It wouldn't add much to journey times and would have the added benefit of reducing emissions and favouring EVs.
I know it mightn't be popular amongst drivers but any thoughts?

Castlekeeper

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Anyhow, the thought came to me this am as I cruised home from rugby training that a non National road speed limit reduction, with enforcement, to say 70km/hr, could do a pile for road safety and encouraging cyclists and pedestrians back on the roads.

People have just lost common sense and cars have got so refined that they fail to realise the speed they are actually driving and probably don't care.

The limits can be reduced but it wouldn't make any difference, People will still speed on back roads and worse again, blind narrow roads not suitable for 2 way traffic.