Staff directing traffic - shopping centres

Username you choose

Hi, just a quick question. Are staff legally allowed to direct traffic entering and exiting shopping centres? I was at a major retail park recently and had a near miss due to a guy in his vis jacket (assuming employee of shopping centres)? while he motioned me to proceed he didn't notice a car behind him ignoring him and almost had a collision, I braked hard and of therefore avoided a crash.

I always assumed that only the Gardai/Customs etc. Had the authorisation to stop traffic. If I did have. Collision who would be to blame?
________________________________________________________


Just to clarify.

No, I'm not seeking to make any claims.


Yes I understand responsibility lies with me to post attention, my point is if I am waved out into traffic but said traffic director fails to notice another car coming, who is to blame? What training/legal authority do the staff have?

No, I'm definitely not complaining or looking to have a bitch about staff who provide a much needed service at peak times.

gordongekko

So you are complaining that you didnt crash..... bloody hell

Duke of Url

Was it blanchardstown shopping center and retail park?

BDI

New course incoming of traffic direction that all workers in retail must do every three years at a cost of 90 euro.

punisher5112

Private property so they can stop you entering, if they didn't do car control as such the traffic would be even worse and you would be on here complaining of that.

If you nearly crashed then you weren't paying enough attention.

is_that_so

Username you choose wrote: »

Hi, just a quick question. Are staff legally allowed to direct traffic entering and exiting shopping centres? I was at a major retail park recently and had a near miss due to a guy in his vis jacket (assuming employee of shopping centres)? while he motioned me to proceed hr didn't notice a car behind him ignoring him and almost had a collision.

I always assumed that only the Gardai/Customs etc. Had the authorisation to stop traffic. If I did have. Collision who would be to blame?

Isn't it up to you to observe and not trust other people waving you on? Workers regularly do this on stop go roadworks set-ups.

Heckler

Legal or not they are there to help at a very busy time of the year for shops.

Just don't blindly follow their instruction. Be as mindful as you would usually be.

kirving

You'd have to find the exact legislation, but there are a range of professions who you are required to follow if safe to do so, if they direct traffic, Gardai, Lollipop people, stop/go sign holders.

Even a green traffic light mean proceed if safe to do so under law, while he may have contributed heavily to an accident, the driver is ultimately responsible.

BDI

People in charge of animals are in the legislation too iirc

GarIT

At Manor Mills they often have someone out on the public road telling people to ignore the lights so they can let more people out of their car park than the lights usually allow. Technically if you follow their instructions to go through a red light you are still breaking a red light and could be done for it. If you crash with someone who went through their green light you are at fault as you have driven through a red light.

kirving

GarIT wrote: »

...you are still breaking a red light and could be done for it. If you crash with someone who went through their green light you are at fault as you have driven through a red light.

Even with a green light, the other car must still only proceed if safe to do so.

The idea is that the traffic director takes priority over all other signals, but as part of that responsibly, a uniform (which I think is undefined) must be worn in order to be differentiated form a random person standing in the road.

NIMAN

Typical Irish, looking to see if they can get liability for a claim.

GarIT

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Even with a green light, the other car must still only proceed if safe to do so.

The idea is that the traffic director takes priority over all other signals, but as part of that responsibly, a uniform (which I think is undefined) must be worn in order to be differentiated form a random person standing in the road.

It was safe until some guy went through a red and we colided in this hypothetical situation.



I get the idea but as far as I know lights and the rules of the road overrule a retail worker in a high viz. I have yet to find anything stating they are allowed to direct traffic.

Section 91 of the road traffic act 1961 says that a Gardaí in uniform can direct traffic, any of my searches haven't turned up anything else. Including searching every occurance of 'direct' in the rules of the road. And the section on lights makes no mention of anyone else directing traffic. It says you must obey the lights and there is no mention of but or except anything.

Joe Kaine

Username you choose wrote: »

Hi, just a quick question. Are staff legally allowed to direct traffic entering and exiting shopping centres? I was at a major retail park recently and had a near miss due to a guy in his vis jacket (assuming employee of shopping centres)? while he motioned me to proceed hr didn't notice a car behind him ignoring him and almost had a collision.

I always assumed that only the Gardai/Customs etc. Had the authorisation to stop traffic. If I did have. Collision who would be to blame?

There are courses / training for people working in jobs that involve dealing with traffic.

How do you think construction and civil engineering company's upgrade and build new roads?

Sign, Lighting & Guarding.

Username you choose

Sorry, just to clarify, I'm not complaining because I didn't crash, I was instructed to exit by the staff member and the staff member was not paying attention or other driver ignored him. My question was/is do the staff that direct traffic (other than Gardai) have the legal authority to stop you entering and exiting.

Username you choose

NIMAN wrote: »

Typical Irish, looking to see if they can get liability for a claim.

Excuse me, what are you implying? I asked a question here in all honesty, just because YOU think I am looking for a payout, doesn't make it so....

BDI

I did this job for a few months years ago when I was in college. Amount of a holes out there. Nearly in fights with muppets in cars thinking they were hardmen. Had to just leave.

Plenty of oddballs out there who won’t do what you ask just for the sole reason that you arnt the boss of them.

“Hi can you park in this spot ?”

“You’re not a gaurd “

Proceeds to park in the spot next to it. Next car has to squeeze between two cars. Q backs up a little bit more each time.

Username you choose

punisher5112 wrote: »

Private property so they can stop you entering, if they didn't do car control as such the traffic would be even worse and you would be on here complaining of that.

If you nearly crashed then you weren't paying enough attention.

With all due respect, the reason I didn't crash was because I was paying attention. Regards complaining about the staff? I actually think they are needed especially at this time if year, people are too quick to get outraged and find something that's not there.

Username you choose

is_that_so wrote: »

Isn't it up to you to observe and not trust other people waving you on? Workers regularly do this on stop go roadworks set-ups.

Correct, my question (which seems to be overlooked) was/is do the staff have the legal authority to wave me out or in for that matter to a retail park? When an accident does occur I'm sure we will read about it in the independent.ie...

GarIT

BDI wrote: »

I did this job for a few months years ago when I was in college. Amount of a holes out there. Nearly in fights with muppets in cars thinking they were hardmen. Had to just leave.

Plenty of oddballs out there who won’t do what you ask just for the sole reason that you arnt the boss of them.

“Hi can you park in this spot ?”

“You’re not a gaurd “

Proceeds to park in the spot next to it. Next car has to squeeze between two cars. Q backs up a little bit more each time.

Have you ever thought that maybe the asshole is the person with no authority trying to direct traffic?

BDI

GarIT wrote: »

Have you ever thought that maybe the asshole is the person with no authority trying to direct traffic?

He is just doing what his boss tells him. I’m sure there are very few things he wouldn’t rather be doing.

mordeith

GarIT wrote: »

Have you ever thought that maybe the asshole is the person with no authority trying to direct traffic?

Ah here. It's not like he took it on himself

GarIT

BDI wrote: »

He is just doing what his boss tells him. I’m sure there are very few things he wouldn’t rather be doing.

Yeah I get that. Everyone has to make a living. But he is calling the drivers assholes when in legal terms he is the one in the wrong.

Username you choose

NIMAN wrote: »

Typical Irish, looking to see if they can get liability for a claim.

Also, you assume I'm Irish? If I was Jamaican would that make a difference? It's you that has jumped to that conclusion yourself, not everyone is out looking to claim.

GM228

To answer the OP, whilst as correctly pointed out these roads are usually private roads (within Blanchardstown SC for example the roads are owned by the Blackstone Group), they are still a "public place" for the purpose of road traffic laws and the answer is no, private security (or indeed anyone other than Gardaí or school wardens) can not lawfully direct traffic in a public place unless duly authorised to do so by AGS.

It is possible that such SCs have permission from AGS at times of traffic congestion in which case they have lawful authority to direct traffic in a public place, if they don't have that authorisation than they have no lawful authority to direct traffic.

KWAG2019

GM228 wrote: »

To answer the OP, whilst as correctly pointed out these roads are usually private roads (within Blanchardstown SC for example the roads are owned by the Blackstone Group), they are still a "public place" for the purpose of road traffic laws and the answer is no, private security (or indeed anyone other than Gardaí or school wardens) can not lawfully direct traffic in a public place unless duly authorised to do so by AGS.

It is possible that such SCs have permission from AGS at times of traffic congestion in which case they have lawful authority to direct traffic in a public place, if they don't have that authorisation than they have no lawful authority to direct traffic.

After two pages of posters criticizing the OP for asking a question about the legal status of these hi vis traffic directors we get an answer based on law.

I think the next number of these I meet I’ll tell them that they are personally liable for injury and damage resulting from their activities and that as they are exercising an authority that belongs to AGS they could face prosecution for impersonating a Garda. It may have as much legal foundation as their own activity but what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Very appropriate for the time of year.

The ones directing the traffic in Blanchardstown are an absolute disgrace and I’d encourage anyone to claim to the hilt in an effort to get rid of them.

BDI

KWAG2019 wrote: »

After two pages of posters criticizing the OP for asking a question about the legal status of these hi vis traffic directors we get an answer based on law.

I think the next number of these I meet I’ll tell them that they are personally liable for injury and damage resulting from their activities and that as they are exercising an authority that belongs to AGS they could face prosecution for impersonating a Garda. It may have as much legal foundation as their own activity but what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Very appropriate for the time of year.

Tell their boss that. They more than likely don’t want to be there either but were told what to do and what direction to point.

peteb2

punisher5112 wrote:

Private property so they can stop you entering, if they didn't do car control as such the traffic would be even worse and you would be on here complaining of that.

Nope. It's not that simple when it comes to the road traffic act.

punisher5112

peteb2 wrote: »

Nope. It's not that simple when it comes to the road traffic act.

Inside on a private car park...

Masala

Username you choose wrote: »

Excuse me, what are you implying? I asked a question here in all honesty, just because YOU think I am looking for a payout, doesn't make it so....

You only 21 posts in..... trolls everywhere in here dying to start a row,!,

Don’t let them wind you up;;

gordongekko

Username you choose wrote: »

Sorry, just to clarify, I'm not complaining because I didn't crash, I was instructed to exit by the staff member and the staff member was not paying attention or other driver ignored him. My question was/is do the staff that direct traffic (other than Gardai) have the legal authority to stop you entering and exiting.

Can the owner of private property stop you entering their property??? Do you really need to even ask this question.

listermint

GarIT wrote: »

Yeah I get that. Everyone has to make a living. But he is calling the drivers assholes when in legal terms he is the one in the wrong.

Have you considered they are arseholes.


And why is every second discussion about how legal something is.


It's getting like the United States here void of personal responsibility. And many posters in here are part of the problem

GarIT

listermint wrote: »

Have you considered they are arseholes.


And why is every second discussion about how legal something is.


It's getting like the United States here void of personal responsibility. And many posters in here are part of the problem

Maybe we have discussions about the legal perspective on things because people want to follow the law, or because they want others to follow the law.


How do you take personal responsibility in this situation in your opinion. Go the route that is typically more convenient and break the law and go along with the person directing traffic or refuse to break the law and ignore the person trying to direct traffic?

listermint

GarIT wrote: »

Maybe we have discussions about the legal perspective on things because people want to follow the law, or because they want others to follow the law.


How do you take personal responsibility in this situation in your opinion. Go the route that is typically more convenient and break the law and go along with the person directing traffic or refuse to break the law and ignore the person trying to direct traffic?

Common sense.

But I've found its not that common, frankly.

GM228

punisher5112 wrote: »

Inside on a private car park...

gordongekko wrote: »

Can the owner of private property stop you entering their property??? Do you really need to even ask this question.

An owner of private property stopping you entering their property is not comparable to staff directing traffic in a public place, even though the road is private it is still a public place and it is specifically a criminal offence to obstruct traffic in a public place without lawful authority.

KWAG2019

GM228 wrote: »

An owner of private property stopping you entering their property is not comparable to staff directing traffic in a public place, even though the road is private it is still a public place and it is specifically a criminal offence to obstruct traffic in a public place without lawful authority.

Even more interesting: a criminal offence. So if employer A instructs employee B to direct traffic without lawful authority .... it’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas!

GM228

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Even more interesting: a criminal offence. So if employer A instructs employee B to direct traffic without lawful authority .... it’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas!

But it's the poor employee B committing the offence, not employer A.

KWAG2019

GM228 wrote: »

But it's the poor employee B committing the offence, not employer A.

“I refused to carry out the instruction and told the employer he was instructing me to carry out a crime. I was then fired/ disciplined etc” Oh yes

GM228

Don't forget however, perhaps the SC actually does have authorisation from AGS for traffic management during times of traffic congestion.

peteb2

punisher5112 wrote:

Inside on a private car park...

Nope. I've been to court on other reasons regarding the definition of a private place v public place. It's not simple. It's about access.

GM228

peteb2 wrote: »

Nope. I've been to court on other reasons regarding the definition of a private place v public place. It's not simple. It's about access.

More specifically in relation to road traffic laws it's not just about access, it's qualified (obviously) in that it's access with vehicles.

Fann Linn

peteb2 wrote: »

Nope. I've been to court on other reasons regarding the definition of a private place v public place. It's not simple. It's about access.

Correct. Croke Park for example, private yet public have access.

KWAG2019

GM228 wrote: »

Don't forget however, perhaps the SC actually does have authorisation from AGS for traffic management during times of traffic congestion.

I think any reputable SC should have. Be a good idea to post that info re hi vis onto Facebook or Twitter account of major SCs.

punisher5112

peteb2 wrote: »

Nope. I've been to court on other reasons regarding the definition of a private place v public place. It's not simple. It's about access.

Got off on that one, traffic cop didn't state I was stopped on public or private;-)

Whocare

People in charge of livestock have the authority to Direct a stop car legally

KWAG2019

Whocare wrote: »

People in charge of livestock have the authority to Direct a stop car legally

So all our hi vis friends need is two suck calves on a length of rope and bobs your uncle!

Odyssey 2005

Username you choose wrote: »

With all due respect, the reason I didn't crash was because I was paying attention. Regards complaining about the staff? I actually think they are needed especially at this time if year, people are too quick to get outraged and find something that's not there.

Why did you have to brake hard in a shopping centre carpark if you were paying attention ?

Odyssey 2005

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Why did you have to brake hard in a shopping centre carpark if you were paying attention ?

Because a car unexpectedly drove out under them that should have been stopped. Did you not read what happened?

fenris

listermint wrote: »

And why is every second discussion about how legal something is.

The clue may be in the name of this forum 🙂

In fairness as a driver you should know who has thr authority to direct your movement in traffic, especially when you are being directed to carry out an action that contravenes the road traffic act. Hi Viz vest confers no authority, nor does the arguement that my boss told me to do it, they are not going to shield you from penalty points or worse.

GM228

Whocare wrote: »

People in charge of livestock have the authority to Direct a stop car legally

They don't, they used to but the appropriate legislation was revoked 22 years ago.