Wiring for additional pir sensor

funkey_monkey

I am looking to add an additional pir for a yard light.
The wiring requires blue (neutral), brown (live) and red (switched live).

However I can't find cabling to suit and I'd rather not switch colouring if possible. I could get individual wires and run them in trunking but I was wondering how people in the trade deal with this rather than me reinventing the wheel.


Thanks.

Risteard81

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I am looking to add an additional pir for a yard light.
The wiring requires blue (neutral), brown (live) and red (switched live).

However I can't find cabling to suit and I'd rather not switch colouring if possible. I could get individual wires and run them in trunking but I was wondering how people in the trade deal with this rather than me reinventing the wheel.


Thanks.

A phase conductor is not red.

Lefty Bicek

Risteard81 wrote: »

A phase conductor is not red.

Therefore... ?

2011

The phase colors are brown, black, grey. It is easy enough to purchase a cable with these colors with blue (neutral) and earth (green / yellow). Although strictly speaking it is not permitted REC’s routinely change the colors with heat shrink. Personally I think this is a very acceptable solution when done properly.

It is easy to purchase a 4 core 1.5 mm sq. flex with black, brown, blue and green / yellow core. This is often used in a case such as this with the black as the permanent supply. A heat resistant version of these flexes are used for immersion elements.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

A phase conductor is not red.

As it happens phase colors used to be red, yellow and blue. There are many installations up and down the country wired using these as phase colors. The new colors are brown, black and grey. However in many installations wired using the old phase colors consultancies often insist that the red, yellow and blue phase colors are maintained for all new projects within the plant. This is done in the interest of safety. In fact this was the case in a plant (one of the largest in the country) that Bruthal and I worked in a few years ago. So in that case red was and still is a phase color.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

A phase conductor is not red.

It is in some places.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

As it happens phase colors used to be red, yellow and blue. There are many installations up and down the country wired using these as phase colors. The new colors are brown, black and grey. However in many installations wired using the old phase colors consultancies often insist that the red, yellow and blue phase colors are maintained for all new projects within the plant. This is done in the interest of safety. In fact this was the case in a plant (one of the largest in the country) that Bruthal and I worked in a few years ago. So in that case red was and still is a phase color.

It is still in use for new works there, or was last year when I was in the BIM section.

The cables installed are brown black grey and heat shrink is used for red and yellow.

Bruthal

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Therefore... ?

You run in 2 browns and a blue and earth. This can be a twin and earth and single brown, or twin brown and single blue.

funkey_monkey

Risteard81 wrote: »

A phase conductor is not red.

All pir sensors I've seen for sale have that colour designation. Red is the switched live between the sensor and the light.

funkey_monkey

Bruthal wrote: »

You run in 2 browns and a blue and earth. This can be a twin and earth and single brown, or twin brown and single blue.

That's what I was going to do, but I didn't like the idea of having a live in a single sheath. I'd have to put it in conduit for additional mechanical protection - it's in a shed so it's not a kind environment for having live in a flimsy single sheath.

The other option was to buy 4 or 5 core and trim of the unrequired wires. Although I thought that there was bound to be the cabling I needed elsewhere.

For the first pir I had to use the earth as a temporary solution, but I have covered the earth sheath with red insulation tape and labelled it as L' at both ends. The only issue I foresee is if someone decides to take a spur from it without checking the connections, but as it is my home I doubt that will happen before I get around to putting a better solution in place when I get the additional pir.

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

However in many installations wired using the old phase colors consultancies often insist that the red, yellow and blue phase colors are maintained for all new projects within the plant. This is done in the interest of safety. In fact this was the case in a plant (one of the largest in the country) that Bruthal and I worked in a few years ago. So in that case red was and still is a phase color.

That does not comply with the National Wiring Rules. This is a fact which cannot be disputed, and therefore the works should not be certified as compliant with the Wiring Rules as they are not.

They should have petitioned for this aspect of the Wiring Rules to be changed if they felt so strongly about doing this in the interests of safety.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

That does not comply with the National Wiring Rules. This is a fact which cannot be disputed, and therefore the works should not be certified as compliant with the Wiring Rules as they are not.

Obviously they have this factory hidden behind haystacks so.

Bruthal

funkey_monkey wrote: »

That's what I was going to do, but I didn't like the idea of having a live in a single sheath. I'd have to put it in conduit for additional mechanical protection - it's in a shed so it's not a kind environment for having live in a flimsy single sheath.

The other option was to buy 4 or 5 core and trim of the unrequired wires. Although I thought that there was bound to be the cabling I needed elsewhere.

For the first pir I had to use the earth as a temporary solution, but I have covered the earth sheath with red insulation tape and labelled it as L' at both ends. The only issue I foresee is if someone decides to take a spur from it without checking the connections, but as it is my home I doubt that will happen before I get around to putting a better solution in place when I get the additional pir.

Twin and earth and single pvc/pvc cables are double sheath.

The earth taped as a phase is a very rough solution, and should be avoided.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

That does not comply with the National Wiring Rules. This is a fact which cannot be disputed, and therefore the works should not be certified as compliant with the Wiring Rules as they are not.

Here is another fact which can not be disputed:
That’s the way all of the RECs wired it.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

They should have petitioned for this aspect of the Wiring Rules to be changed if they felt so strongly about doing this in the interests of safety.

So you think they just install and say nothing do you, while employing thousands of persons?

And who do you think installed this wiring?

Risteard81

Bruthal wrote: »

So you think they just install and say nothing do you, while employing thousands of persons?

And who do you think installed this wiring?

I realise that you are a very arrogant person, but the fact is that it is a breach of the Wiring Rules.

FULL STOP.

END OF STORY.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

I realise that you are a very arrogant person,

O yes, back to this again. Didnt take long...

but the fact is that it is a breach of the Wiring Rules.

Ok, so how are RECs installing and testing the wiring then?

Perhaps an actual answer will be forthcoming this time.......

funkey_monkey

Bruthal wrote: »

Twin and earth and single pvc/pvc cables are double sheath.

The earth taped as a phase is a very rough solution, and should be avoided.

It is, but there was a significantly greater risk associated with someone tripping in an unlit yard.
The fact that I started this thread is an acknowledgement that I am aware it is a tough solution and to be avoided.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

I realise that you are a very arrogant person, but the fact is that it is a breach of the Wiring Rules.

FULL STOP.

END OF STORY.

Risteard this type of response is not acceptable. If you can not be civil to other posters do not post on this forum. If you continue to ignore the forum charter we will be forced to take action

Risteard81

Why don't you provide some evidence as to how it is permitted by the Wiring Rules then?

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

Why don't you provide some evidence as to how it is permitted by the Wiring Rules then?

I’m not saying it complies with the rules. I’m just stating that it is done routinely by RECs on one of the largest plants in the country. All across the site in hundreds of switch rooms, MCCs red is a phase, and the work is certified. That is a fact.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

Why don't you provide some evidence as to how it is permitted by the Wiring Rules then?

Do you believe it is possible to receive authorization to install the colours as mentioned, or not possible? Im sure you would`t receive it for wiring an attic.

Some of the largest RECs in the country have installed huge installations there. Do you think they do it as a top secret mission?

funkey_monkey

Bruthal wrote: »

single pvc/pvc cables are double sheath.

Just found this in my catalogue called meter tails. Tenner for 5m so it's dear enough compared with multi core cabling. I'll get some for the new pir and tidy it up.
Although, to complicate matters even more I'm in NI and it seems that our standard permits what I've done as it states that reach core shall be identifiable at its terminations.

However, I prefer the Irish solution is a much cleaner implementation, albeit a bit more expensive.

2011

funkey_monkey wrote: »

It is, but there was a significantly greater risk associated with someone tripping in an unlit yard.
The fact that I started this thread is an acknowledgement that I am aware it is a tough solution and to be avoided.

Using the earth in a twin and earth cable as a phase conductor is not something I would recommend. I would consider this to be unacceptable.

Bruthal

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Just found this in my catalogue called meter tails. Tenner for 5m so it's dear enough compared with multi core cabling. I'll get some for the new pir and tidy it up.
Although, to complicate matters even more I'm in NI and it seems that our standard permits what I've done as it states that reach core shall be identifiable at its terminations.

However, I prefer the Irish solution is a much cleaner implementation, albeit a bit more expensive.

You only need 1.5 square size for a light and pir. Meter tails are 16 square.

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

I’m not saying it complies with the rules. I’m just stating that it is done routinely by RECs on one of the largest plants in the country. All across the site in hundreds of switch rooms, MCCs red is a phase, and the work is certified. That is a fact.

I didn't claim that it didn't happen.

It doesn't mean that you (or others) should jump down my throat because of the correct assertion that it isn't actually permissible.

Risteard81

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Just found this in my catalogue called meter tails. Tenner for 5m so it's dear enough compared with multi core cabling. I'll get some for the new pir and tidy it up.
Although, to complicate matters even more I'm in NI and it seems that our standard permits what I've done as it states that reach core shall be identifiable at its terminations.

However, I prefer the Irish solution is a much cleaner implementation, albeit a bit more expensive.

In the Six Counties a phase conductor still cannot be red, however you could sleeve it brown at the terminations. The IET Wiring Regulations do, however, state that the conductor should preferably be identifiable throughout its length.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

Why don't you provide some evidence as to how it is permitted by the Wiring Rules then?

I nearly burnt the house down yesterday building a double H bridge for controlling a bipolar stepper motor. I set both the P and N channel mosfets on, on one side by mistake.

Not sure if it was arrogance, or the eyesight failing:pac:

Well more burnt the transistor itself than the house, the arrogance hey.

Are you gone on holidays again?

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

I didn't claim that it didn't happen.

It doesn't mean that you (or others) should jump down my throat because of the correct assertion that it isn't actually permissible.

Why dont you be civil then, instead of this trend you have lately? We have all got heated. But it does nothing but diminish the opinions.

Its not about jumping down throats. The fact is, phases can be red. They can still be installed as such.

My opinion in that actual setup was they should have went with new colours in new phaes of the build.

But they are authorized to use the mentioned colours, so it is permitted.

We can still say it is not permitted according to the national rules. But they have permission.

Risteard81

Bruthal wrote: »

Why dont you be civil then, instead of this trend you have lately? We have all got heated. But it does nothing but diminish the opinions.

As I mentioned before, I will be civil to those who are civil to me.

Civility is not one of your strong points.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

As I mentioned before, I will be civil to those who are civil to me.

Civility is not one of your strong points.

Explain the arrogance one? If you can

Risteard81

Bruthal wrote: »

Explain the arrogance one? If you can

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/arrogant?s=t

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/arrogant?s=t

Which parts, all?

Bruthal

Now as I said before, the irony of calling someone arrogant.

From the same dictionary you just used.


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bulb?s=t

Maybe its from the "so called" UK, so doesnt apply:pac:

Risteard81

Really not sure what your point is.

Bulbs grow and lamps glow.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

Really not sure what your point is.

The arrogance of disagreeing with the same dictionary you just used to post a point.


Anyway. Yes, there are red phases. And they are still installed, and certified. And compliant for that installation.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

I didn't claim that it didn't happen.

You did, right here

It doesn't mean that you (or others) should jump down my throat because of the correct assertion that it isn't actually permissible.

Look through my posts in this thread, and you will see that I did not “jump down your throat”

I just pointed out that you are factually incorrect and I answered the OP’s question.

The fact is we all know that red was a phase color and that as such plenty of installations still have red phase conductors.

Not every answer can be found in the rules.

2011

I don’t think there is anything to be gained from keeping this thread open.
The OP’s question has been answered.