Smax 2.0tdci losing coolant rapidly

honda boi

I got this car last week.08 ford smax 2.0tdci. All seemed good when got it but now since a few days ago it's losing alot of its coolant.
What I've noticed:
Last night when I had to top it up,(top up as in litres) . Let it idle with the cap off for about 40mins,no drop in coolant level. Cap on ,drive for 5 minutes ,came back coolant tank empty.
No visible leaks I can see.
Doesn't look like head gasket because the amount of water/coolant I've put in,the engine would be exploded by now!!!
No milky substance on oil cap or dipstick.
Driving the temp gauge will fluctuate between 1/4 mark to just below 1/2 throughout driving.
Heater doesn't always get hot inside. Sometimes its cold.
I had thought thermostat but that wouldnt explain the coolant lose I'd assume?
No real smoke from exhaust.
Coolant is going somewhere but I've no idea. It's odd that idling with the cap off no coolant went missing.
I've a bottle of Holt's rad seal,worth a try or is it all bo**ox?
Anyone with the 2.0tdci/2.0hdi engine have any similar symptoms before?
Oh and I've changed the expansion tank and cap and still happens

honda boi

Ok I went out this evening and put that rad seal in .
I closed the radiator cap and let it idle for 20mins.
Came back and seen it pouring out the overflow by the radiator cap.
So there's too much pressure in the system.
Must of been always pouring out here.
So my question is ,if it isn't the cap what else would cause it to flow out the overflow?

Max Moment

honda boi wrote: »

Ok I went out this evening and put that rad seal in .
I closed the radiator cap and let it idle for 20mins.
Came back and seen it pouring out the overflow by the radiator cap.
So there's too much pressure in the system.
Must of been always pouring out here.
So my question is ,if it isn't the cap what else would cause it to flow out the overflow?

Water pump goosed?

mickuhaha

Can you post a picture of where it's leaking.

honda boi

Max Moment wrote: »

Water pump goosed?

Apparently water pump and timing belt were done I think 50k miles ago.
If water pump gone wouldn't it overheat pretty quick?
Have done about 400-500km since buying it and never any sign of overheating

honda boi

mickuhaha wrote: »

Can you post a picture of where it's leaking.

Too dark to get a pic outside so found one online.
It looks like the overflow hole.

Max Moment

honda boi wrote: »

Apparently water pump and timing belt were done I think 50k miles ago.
If water pump gone wouldn't it overheat pretty quick?
Have done about 400-500km since buying it and never any sign of overheating

Not necessarily. Rad fan could be keeping the engine cool. Probably not the pump if it was changed recently, but worth ruling it out

mickuhaha

honda boi wrote: »

Too dark to get a pic outside so found one online.
It looks like the overflow hole.

Don't think that's overflow , it's a leak. This is a pressured water system .

Bruthal

Max Moment wrote: »

Not necessarily. Rad fan could be keeping the engine cool. Probably not the pump if it was changed recently, but worth ruling it out

Rad fan wouldnt do much if no coolant circulating. And while the car is moving at any decent pace, rad fan is not needed.

honda boi

mickuhaha wrote: »

Don't think that's overflow , it's a leak. This is a pressured water system .

I've 2 expansion tanks here with the same identical markings. To me they look like some kind of overflow

honda boi

Max Moment wrote: »

Not necessarily. Rad fan could be keeping the engine cool. Probably not the pump if it was changed recently, but worth ruling it out

Come to think of it I've never heard the fan come on at all since driving this car.

Bruthal

honda boi wrote: »

Come to think of it I've never heard the fan come on at all since driving this car.

They usually only come on when the car is stopped or very slow moving. When the car is moving at road speed, the airflow through the radiator does what the fan does when the car is not moving. When not moving, the coolant temp increases due to no rad airflow, and a stat brings on the fan.

Overheating coolant can escape out the pressure release, for instance if the coolant pump was not working right. But if that was the case, the heating in the car passenger compartment usually wont be working right, and signs of overheating engine would be noticed.

Or could just be a problem radiator cap. Or cracked expansion tank etc. Or internal leak through head gasket.

jmreire

Check the top water hose when it's hot ( wear gloves ) if it feels hard when you squeeze it, then it's over pressurising, and that's what is forcing the water out so fast. Usually, that means a leaking head gasket. Take it to a good Ford Indy , he will be able to tell you quickly what is wrang, and how to fix it. It seems to hold the water when the cap is off ( system not pressurising ), but loses it when the cap is on.. ( system pressurising )

Bruthal

Sometimes refilling lost coolant can cause an airlock, which prevents coolant flowing properly, especially when it is a good percentage of the volume being refilled. And this can cause overheating, non working cabin heating etc.

honda boi

jmreire wrote: »

Check the top water hose when it's hot ( wear gloves ) if it feels hard when you squeeze it, then it's over pressurising, and that's what is forcing the water out so fast. Usually, that means a leaking head gasket. Take it to a good Ford Indy , he will be able to tell you quickly what is wrang, and how to fix it. It seems to hold the water when the cap is off ( system not pressurising ), but loses it when the cap is on.. ( system pressurising )

Thanks I'll give that a go tomorrow.
I'll be stumped if it's the head gasket and there's none of the usual signs. I.e milky oil cap,white smoke constantly out the exhaust and over heating.

honda boi

Bruthal wrote: »

Sometimes refilling lost coolant can cause an airlock, which prevents coolant flowing properly, especially when it is a good percentage of the volume being refilled. And this can cause overheating, non working cabin heating etc.

I had first thought oh it must be an airlock. As the heating would be hot then turn cold all of a sudden.
But ran it idling with the cap off for a long period to try and release any air bubbles.
But after seeing it leaks only when the cap is on, has me really worried.
This is the 2nd ford I've bought and bought have poxy issues

wonski

The coolant must go somewhere.

Run it with cap closed and bring up to the working temperature. You should see it somewhere. Loose connection on one of the pipes or something like that.

Keep an eye on temperature and levels doing same as you don't want to run it dry and overheat. But I guess you know it reading your posts.

jmreire

honda boi wrote: »

Thanks I'll give that a go tomorrow.
I'll be stumped if it's the head gasket and there's none of the usual signs. I.e milky oil cap,white smoke constantly out the exhaust and over heating.

Yes, it can be that way too,,,it all depends on if the compression is leaking "out" into the water gallery's in the head, and in your case, that is what I think is happening, because the pressure is much higher "outward's", than say a leak between 2 cylinder's in the gasket,which can give you smokey exhaust / milky oil colouring.

Bruthal

honda boi wrote: »

I had first thought oh it must be an airlock. As the heating would be hot then turn cold all of a sudden.
But ran it idling with the cap off for a long period to try and release any air bubbles.
But after seeing it leaks only when the cap is on, has me really worried.
This is the 2nd ford I've bought and bought have poxy issues

When coolant is lost beyond a certain amount, the heating wont work properly anyway as coolant stops flowing properly when there is too little. same thing happens if the coolant pump is not working.

It is the coolant which provides the heating via heat exchanger in the heating console. It is like a second radiator but the heating fan air goes into the cabin, taking heat from the coolant into the cabin.

honda boi

wonski wrote: »

The coolant must go somewhere.

Run it with cap closed and bring up to the working temperature. You should see it somewhere. Loose connection on one of the pipes or something like that.

Keep an eye on temperature and levels doing same as you don't want to run it dry and overheat. But I guess you know it reading your posts.

Yep I eventually found it coming out the overfill on the reservoir tank.
Leaks out when the cap is closed and under pressure

Mech1

ok stop.

wait till its stone cold.

fill the bottle to the brim.

start the car and turn on full heating in cabin.

If the water / coolant is circulating into the expansion bottle when cold your pump is good.

Let it heat up until heater is warm give it a couple of 3000 rpm blips during this time.

refill as ness.

put the cap on and go for a drive.


watch for leaks or overheating and then report back here.

honda boi

jmreire wrote: »

Yes, it can be that way too,,,it all depends on if the compression is leaking "out" into the water gallery's in the head, and in your case, that is what I think is happening, because the pressure is much higher "outward's", than say a leak between 2 cylinder's in the gasket,which can give you smokey exhaust / milky oil colouring.

With my case, is it safe to drive for now?
If I'm thinking correctly if there's pressure leaving the combustion chamber and into the cooling system,then as long as I keep an eye on the coolant for the time being it should be ok?
Is there a definite way to test this? Pressure test the cooling system for exhaust gases?

wmMagner

Is there steam coming from the exhaust? If so it could be the egr cooler. The coolant can make its way into the cylinder through the egr. I think it can cause vapour lock. Not sure.

jmreire

honda boi wrote: »

With my case, is it safe to drive for now?
If I'm thinking correctly if there's pressure leaving the combustion chamber and into the cooling system,then as long as I keep an eye on the coolant for the time being it should be ok?
Is there a definite way to test this? Pressure test the cooling system for exhaust gases?

Theoretically, yes, once there is enough water in the system, it should be ok, but I would not advise driving it, TBH. Its only going to get worse. Get it to a Garage or an experienced Indy, and they will pressure test it for you.

honda boi

upload pics
Seen this after a 20minute drive.
And the top rad pipe is very hard.
Not looking good at all

jmreire

honda boi wrote: »

upload pics
Seen this after a 20minute drive.
And the top rad pipe is very hard.
Not looking good at all

If I was a betting man, I'd say head gasket, for sure. The engine compression is finding it's way into the cooling system, and blowing the water out. If you have to drive it, leave the cap off the expansion tank ( the one in the pic ) and carry plenty of water with you, watch the temp gauge like a hawk. But get it seen to ASAP would be my advice.

honda boi

jmreire wrote: »

If I was a betting man, I'd say head gasket, for sure. The engine compression is finding it's way into the cooling system, and blowing the water out. If you have to drive it, leave the cap off the expansion tank ( the one in the pic ) and carry plenty of water with you, watch the temp gauge like a hawk. But get it seen to ASAP would be my advice.

Ye I gonna have to get it organised sometime next week
I was thinking of taking the cap off but was unsure if it would be worse.
But I suppose if the pressure can be let out quicker it mightn't lose coolant near as quick

jmreire

honda boi wrote: »

Ye I gonna have to get it organised sometime next week
I was thinking of taking the cap off but was unsure if it would be worse.
But I suppose if the pressure can be let out quicker it mightn't lose coolant near as quick

That's what I said in an earlier post when you were unsure what was causing the leak....fill it up to the max,leave the cap off and drive it for 20 mins...then repeat the process with the cap on, and see what happens. So now if you leave the cap off ( de-pressurising the system), it wont blow the water out, but you have not cured the original and still present fault. And for now, the head gasket is only leaking into the water gallery's,,,and not downwards or accross between 2 pistons, which would be a lot worse in term's of engine damage. Sorry not to be bringing you good new's, coming up to Christmas and all. But "Good Luck" with fixing it.

junkyarddog

It may be worth your while to try a new expansion bottle cap first.

A friend had a similar issue (not a Ford) got the head gasket replaced and the problem still persisted,
a brand new cap sorted it.

honda boi

Well so I'm still having issues .
Brought it to a friend who works on cars to check if it's the head gasket or not.
He checked it and said it's definitely not a head gasket . He just assured me saying it's not that.
He never had time to actually find what was wrong.
So now I'm left diagnosing myself.
What I've done myself. I checked the expansion bottle with it full and cap off, not one bubble comes out now when I rev or idle so I myself is doubting head gasket( more hoping). I assume if compression is pumped into the cooling system there would be some kind of bubbles or the coolant should start overflowing with pressure.
But when I put the cap on ,the top rad pipe gets quite hard within a short period of time. The bottom rad pipe gets warm but no where near the top pipe. The top pipe gets very hot.
It's doesn't seem to lose coolant at idle or revving with the cap on but after a drive, the coolant does spit out the cap overfill. Cap and coolant tank have been changed aswell.
Now with all this I would of thought the temp gauge would shoot up but it stays at about 70-75°C the whole time. I checked it when driving and at times its gone up to above 80°C, but just drops back to 70°C which can't be right,if it did drop that quick something has to be wrong. Checked with forscan on the laptop and torque on phone.
When I've revved it up to 2k revs and left it at that,the temperature would drop( this has me stumped).
I changed the coolant temp sensor (old car is a cmax and is the same one) incase it was reading wrong,nope new one doing the same.
I'm thinking thermostat but if it's stuck closed and the coolant is building too much pressure the engine would be toast by now. If open the pipes would surely be colder and not hard.
I can't understand how the top pipe is very hot and the temp gauge is reading its low.
One thing I've noticed is the fans don't kick in at all,I'm assuming that's because the coolant temp sensor is saying it's cold. Fans have been tested and are working.
Heater inside blows cold at idle, can get warm when moving.
Like that it could still be a head gasket ,I think I want to make sure nothing else is to blame as I've read people getting the head gasket done and problems still persist . Otherwise the car drives great,no hesitation, idles perfect and pulls like a train.
Thanks and happy late Xmas to yas

FAMLEE

I would take a guess and say its a weep across the head gasket OP, i had a TDi before which had the very same symptoms no milky oil etc, the head gasket would only blow when the engine was under load , it would idle for hours and not loose coolant, when driving then you would have hot air for a few mins initially, then cold. The water temp sensor could be fluctuating as it gets somewhat dry if that makes sense, mine used to drop back to 50c (lowest reading) after about 45 mins driving, i was driving the car for about 6 months like this until it cracked the block between cyl 1 & 2 during the bad snow march 2018, there was only pure water in the system! When i pulled the head the weep in the headgasket was clear to see, at the back of cyl2 into the coolant jacket. Doesnt sound too good tbh, the pump is definetly circulating? Thermostat wont open until around 90c

jmreire

honda boi wrote: »

Well so I'm still having issues .
Brought it to a friend who works on cars to check if it's the head gasket or not.
He checked it and said it's definitely not a head gasket . He just assured me saying it's not that.
He never had time to actually find what was wrong.
So now I'm left diagnosing myself.
What I've done myself. I checked the expansion bottle with it full and cap off, not one bubble comes out now when I rev or idle so I myself is doubting head gasket( more hoping). I assume if compression is pumped into the cooling system there would be some kind of bubbles or the coolant should start overflowing with pressure.
But when I put the cap on ,the top rad pipe gets quite hard within a short period of time. The bottom rad pipe gets warm but no where near the top pipe. The top pipe gets very hot.
It's doesn't seem to lose coolant at idle or revving with the cap on but after a drive, the coolant does spit out the cap overfill. Cap and coolant tank have been changed aswell.
Now with all this I would of thought the temp gauge would shoot up but it stays at about 70-75°C the whole time. I checked it when driving and at times its gone up to above 80°C, but just drops back to 70°C which can't be right,if it did drop that quick something has to be wrong. Checked with forscan on the laptop and torque on phone.
When I've revved it up to 2k revs and left it at that,the temperature would drop( this has me stumped).
I changed the coolant temp sensor (old car is a cmax and is the same one) incase it was reading wrong,nope new one doing the same.
I'm thinking thermostat but if it's stuck closed and the coolant is building too much pressure the engine would be toast by now. If open the pipes would surely be colder and not hard.
I can't understand how the top pipe is very hot and the temp gauge is reading its low.
One thing I've noticed is the fans don't kick in at all,I'm assuming that's because the coolant temp sensor is saying it's cold. Fans have been tested and are working.
Heater inside blows cold at idle, can get warm when moving.
Like that it could still be a head gasket ,I think I want to make sure nothing else is to blame as I've read people getting the head gasket done and problems still persist . Otherwise the car drives great,no hesitation, idles perfect and pulls like a train.
Thanks and happy late Xmas to yas

Honda Boi, as Famlee has posted.
Head gasket goes, pressure build's up in the cooling system, and forces coolant out via the overflow in the expansion tank. It also pressurises the top water jacket, which as you have seen, make's the Jacket ( hose ) hard and hot. Bottom water jacket ( hose ) is cooler because water is being pumped through the cylinder head, and into the radiator and as it travels down through the radiator to the bottom hose, it's cooled. All of the other symptoms you describe point to the head gasket, INMHO.

honda boi

Thanks lads I guess it's the worse case then .
I bought the car from a trader for 2.5k .
Is there any comeback with it? I always assumed no warranty or anything with cheaper cars and private/trader sales.
I assumed only dealers have a warranty.

FAMLEE

honda boi wrote: »

Thanks lads I guess it's the worse case then .
I bought the car from a trader for 2.5k .
Is there any comeback with it? I always assumed no warranty or anything with cheaper cars and private/trader sales.
I assumed only dealers have a warranty.

Is it a trader dealing from home or does he have a garage? Did he mention it was a trade sale/sold as seen? Did he write you a receipt stating it was a trade sale? It wouldn't be cost effective to rebuilt the engine by the time you get the head skimmed etc, a second hand engine dropped in would be the best solution if he is a garage I'd ring him back & explain couple days later it was dry of coolant.. either him or the person who traded it to him knew the head was going as it progressesily gets worse and worse ..he might help you out , if he's a dodgy type of fella and tells you to get lost.. well I don't know how you would go about it, but I would land the pile through his front gate (smax a fairly heavy bus) lol

jmreire

I'd go back to him anyhow, and talk to him about it....if he tells you to get lost, tell him you are going to a solicitor, and see if that changes anything...what have you got to lose?

honda boi

Thanks lads
Your man wasn't a garage. Just a lad at his house.
Only reason I knew he was a trader is because the ad on done deal ,stated the seller was a trader

jmreire

honda boi wrote: »

Thanks lads
Your man wasn't a garage. Just a lad at his house.
Only reason I knew he was a trader is because the ad on done deal ,stated the seller was a trader

I could understand anyone being attracted to a "bargain", but unless i knew the seller personally ( and more importantly, the car) I'd be wary of buying from any private seller from his house.You might be lucky, in this case and get a few quid back from him, but otherwise, I doubt it. There is such a thing as the sale of good's act, but it could be a very costly road to go down...and without any guarantees that you would come out of it in a good way. Seems like to try and salvage anything from the deal now would be to invest a few quid in repairing it, and getting a few years driving out of it might be the best option. Sorry it worked out like this for you.

honda boi

Yep.
Cars bought and payed for,including tax and extra insurance cost,so I may aswell fix it.
Looking around it seem there won't be much change from 1k€ in repairing it.
Get the head gasket done(head skimmed the whole lot) ,may aswell get the timing belt done and water pump if the engine will be out. Coolant flush and refill
Ah well s**t happens I guess.

FAMLEE

honda boi wrote: »

Yep.
Cars bought and payed for,including tax and extra insurance cost,so I may aswell fix it.
Looking around it seem there won't be much change from 1k€ in repairing it.
Get the head gasket done(head skimmed the whole lot) ,may aswell get the timing belt done and water pump if the engine will be out. Coolant flush and refill
Ah well s**t happens I guess.

The engine won't come out but the head will be taken off with the engine in situ, there is a lot of labour & then like you said new timing belt kit, fluids, skimmed head, OEM gaskets etc. It's gonna cost a small fortune.

If I was you honda boi, I'd get a second hand engine and just replace the whole unit. It could half your repair cost. If you are interested I know a scrappie with a variety of these 2.0tdci engines from S-Max's & galaxy's for €250 & that comes with a 3 month warranty.

A decent mechanic would swap the engine in a day imho they are fairly easy handled bar the subframe.

honda boi

Thanks lads
Brought it my mechanic and confirmed head gasket.
He said it must be just a slight hole from the combustion chamber to the water jacket,just as you lads said, because the car is driving and sounds perfect..
He said the best action would be to do the head gasket as the engine is still perfect
we're gonna do the head gasket on Saturday.
So now I'm looking at buying the parts.
Found this on eBay.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F121162512449
He mentioned about needed to replace the stretch bolts so the eBay link seems to have everything.

jmreire

honda boi wrote: »

Thanks lads
Brought it my mechanic and confirmed head gasket.
He said it must be just a slight hole from the combustion chamber to the water jacket,just as you lads said, because the car is driving and sounds perfect..
He said the best action would be to do the head gasket as the engine is still perfect
we're gonna do the head gasket on Saturday.
So now I'm looking at buying the parts.
Found this on eBay.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F121162512449
He mentioned about needed to replace the stretch bolts so the eBay link seems to have everything.

Well the advantage of repairing your own engine is that you will know exactly what you have...and that's the problem with fitting a 2nd hand engine.....could be the best engine ever...or not. Those parts sound very good, but check with the mechanic who will be doing the job...let him decide, OK? That's what I'd do anyway. Good Luck, and let us know how you get on !!

honda boi

So finally got the head gasket done.
Me and my friend (mechanic) started it at 8am yesterday and got finished at midnight!!
I couldn't notice anything on the old gasket,like rips or cracks but there was a few scorch marks and kind of black oil marks on the piston side.
As we took the head off there was bits of water and drops of water on the pistons so water was definitely getting in.
The intake off the car was destroyed in carbon!!!
Most of the time of the job was cleaning the intake!!!
I got a pic of before hand but didn't take one after.



This is of the top of the pistons after we wiped the water off

Didn't get any other pics of them with head off either.
Anyway we cleaned everything, made it look as good as new.
When we eventually got it started( bigger of a thing to prime) let it heat up.
Took it for a quick spin,hot air on the inside .
Everything drove perfectly.
Tho when driving home the temperature gauge still went from half to quarter a few times. Hoping it was because it was low on coolant in case we didn't bleed it correctly. Nope coolant still at max level.
Would the pressure from the leaky gasket destroyed the thermostat?
Thanks for pointing me towards head gasket !!!!

richardsheil

honda boi wrote: »

So finally got the head gasket done.
Me and my friend (mechanic) started it at 8am yesterday and got finished at midnight!!
I couldn't notice anything on the old gasket,like rips or cracks but there was a few scorch marks and kind of black oil marks on the piston side.
As we took the head off there was bits of water and drops of water on the pistons so water was definitely getting in.
The intake off the car was destroyed in carbon!!!
Most of the time of the job was cleaning the intake!!!
I got a pic of before hand but didn't take one after.



This is of the top of the pistons after we wiped the water off

Didn't get any other pics of them with head off either.
Anyway we cleaned everything, made it look as good as new.
When we eventually got it started( bigger of a thing to prime) let it heat up.
Took it for a quick spin,hot air on the inside .
Everything drove perfectly.
Tho when driving home the temperature gauge still went from half to quarter a few times. Hoping it was because it was low on coolant in case we didn't bleed it correctly. Nope coolant still at max level.
Would the pressure from the leaky gasket destroyed the thermostat?
Thanks for pointing me towards head gasket !!!!

Did you skim and pressure test the head? I hope you dud

Toyotafanboi

I'd say it still needs a thermostat. The water channels look like there's a fair bit of corrosion in them. If you were getting false readings on the dash from low coolant level, it'd usually be a false overheating reading than reading too cool.