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Energystore PLA / Politerm floor insulation

  • 03-12-2019 11:36am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc


    All,

    We are preparing to insulate the ground floor slabs prior to putting in UFH pipework and a recommendation has been made to replace the proposed 150 MM Xtratherm with a newer product called Energystore PLA (or Politerm in mainland Europe).

    This is a liquid screed which is quicker to do with less waste etc. Comparing the TC and U values against the Xtratherm and they are slightly higher / worse.

    Has anyone real world experience of this type of insulation? Any pros to using this in comarison to Xtratherm?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭ selfbuild17


    ec_pc wrote: »
    All,

    We are preparing to insulate the ground floor slabs prior to putting in UFH pipework and a recommendation has been made to replace the proposed 150 MM Xtratherm with a newer product called Energystore PLA (or Politerm in mainland Europe).

    This is a liquid screed which is quicker to do with less waste etc. Comparing the TC and U values against the Xtratherm and they are slightly higher / worse.

    Has anyone real world experience of this type of insulation? Any pros to using this in comarison to Xtratherm?

    Who is recommending the change? Your engineer/architect or your contractor?


  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc


    Who is recommending the change? Your engineer/architect or your contractor?


    My engineer on grounds of speed, easier to put in etc, less waste. Just concerned about it being a newish system and is it as effective as the traditional insulation.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,240 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    ec_pc wrote: »
    All,

    We are preparing to insulate the ground floor slabs prior to putting in UFH pipework and a recommendation has been made to replace the proposed 150 MM Xtratherm with a newer product called Energystore PLA (or Politerm in mainland Europe).

    This is a liquid screed which is quicker to do with less waste etc. Comparing the TC and U values against the Xtratherm and they are slightly higher / worse.

    Has anyone real world experience of this type of insulation? Any pros to using this in comarison to Xtratherm?

    do not go near it unless it has proper certification (IAB, BBA cert etc) as tested in accordance with the standards for the measurement of thermal conductivity and thermal resistance are BS EN 12664, BS EN 12667 and BS EN 12939.


  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc


    I checked the brocuhure and it states : Testing of the energystore TLA is done inaccordance with BS EN 16025 ‘Thermal and/orsound insulating products in building construction.Bound EPS ballastings’. http://energystoreltd.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/ews1132-labc-registered-detail-cert-energystore-tla.pdf

    I checked Xtratherm and can only see a reference to BS EN 12667 for TC.

    I don't fully understand all the BS EN assesmsents etc, so any advice is welcome. I was told the TLA will ensure a better layer of insulation as it will ensure no airgaps than can arise from the traditional insulation.

    My energy consultant has checked with SEAI and it is an approved product for what its worth.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,240 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    What's the TC value of this product?

    I can't see an EPS bead mix concrete screed coming anywhere even close to PIR in insulation values.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc


    Xtratherm TC .022 U Value .12
    TLA TC .043 U value .15

    is that TC value a concern?


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,240 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    ec_pc wrote: »
    Xtratherm TC .022 U Value .12
    TLA TC .043 U value .15

    is that TC value a concern?

    Completely

    Going by that TC value, a quick off the top of my head calculation would be that you'd need twice the thickness of TLA to be comparable to PIR.

    So the typical make up of 120 PIR under a 75 screed would have to be replaced with approx 250mm TLA screed.

    Also, something that jumps out at me...

    If you pour this over an UFH system you'd actually be withholding the heat from entering your rooms, as it would insulate away from the area you want to heat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc


    it will be poured on top of sub floor(?) slab, then ufh then traditional screed.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,240 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    ec_pc wrote: »
    it will be poured on top of sub floor(?) slab, then ufh then traditional screed.

    So:
    100 sub floor
    250 TLA
    75 screed

    That's quite a massive build up.

    I'm still lost as to the point of using a liquid screed under a traditional screed.

    It sounds like this product is more suited to retrofit situations where heights are limited to include both insulation and screed, so they mix the insulation into the screed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭ Calahonda52


    My read is that it is not really a liquid screed as we normally understand it, but an insulated subfloor, which will then have the pipes clipped to it and the final 75 mm/or whatever/ screed laid on top.
    .
    ec_pc wrote: »
    My energy consultant has checked with SEAI and it is an approved product for what its worth.
    .
    Written?


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  • Subscribers Posts: 36,240 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    My read is that it is not really a liquid screed as we normally understand it, but an insulated subfloor, which will then have the pipes clipped to it and the final 75 mm/or whatever/ screed laid on top

    It certainly would make more sense if it could be used instead of the structural sub floor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc


    Yes I should have been clearer. At the moment there is just a new cement subfloor in place. They tell me TLA goes on this and when it goes off the UFH pipes are laid and then trditional screed on top.

    At the moment that void is about 210 MM high in total. Plans were for 150 MM Xtratherm with screed on top. So it seems based on the TC values for TLA that I will effectively be halving the TC values. Price is not a concern as both are more or less the same.

    IT seems I am better sticking with Xtratherm based on much higher TC?


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,240 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Your engineer should be able to a very simple calculation and tell you that you need X thickness of TLA to replace the Y thickness of PIR that was originally specced to meet whatever U value you need to.

    Make your decision based upon the answer to that question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc


    Yes that is what I intend to do. Thanks very much for the guidance!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭ dathi


    ec_pc wrote: »
    Xtratherm TC .022 U Value .12
    TLA TC .043 U value .15

    is that TC value a concern?

    http://www.edilteco.com/en/downloads/download/987/technical-data-sheet-politerm-r-blu

    the thermal conductivity is shown as between 0.065 and 0.103 in their data sheet depending on how much cement is mixed with it


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ BryanF


    Is this structural engineer signing off in part L ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭ Frozen Veg


    Any experience or thoughts on the poured floor insulation since?



  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc


    We are in the house since May 2020 and have no concerns over the decision to use this insulation at the time. Underfloor heating is very effective, all floor surfaces (wood/laminate/tiles) all feel warm to the touch when we have underfloor heating on. I turn the temp right down during the summer so it's effectively off. Installation was extremely quick and tidy with no mess.



  • Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭ Frozen Veg


    What thickness of poured insulation did you use?



  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc




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  • Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭ Frozen Veg


    Thank you. Would you mind Pming me the details of the company you used.



  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ ec_pc




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