Petrol pump problem

deandean

A pal had this problem recently. It's new to me and I wonder if anyone has come across it before?
She always fills the tank just as the fuel warning light comes on. The fill quantity is always 41 to 42 liters. The manufacturer's stated petrol capacity is 50 litres.
She pulled into a filling station (major retailer) and started to fill the tank. The pump acted strangely: there was a lot of gurgling and the meter was slow / erratic in counting up. After about 25 litres indicated the pump stopped gurgling and returned to normal.
She went to pay and was charged for 53 litres. She said this is wrong; there was a problem with the pump. She offered to pay for 41-42 litres but the cashier wasn't having it. After discussions with the manager she left her details and left the bill unpaid.
She got in touch with the NSAI (who check pump calibration). Later she, the manager and an NSAI guy met, checked the pump, calibration was fine.
So the situation is still open. She doesn't know if the Gardai will be knocking at her door or if the fuel company has written this off.
There's no way that 53 litres was pumped into the tank. The tank capacity is stated as 50 litres and it was far from empty at the time.
I've had a petrol pump run out of fuel on me before: it simply stopped. I've never heard a gurgling sound from a pump, which seems to be the unique factor in this case.
Anyone come across this before, or have any ideas as to what happened?

Thanks!

iamtony

I've had pumps do strange thinks and slow down and make noise but it's always caught up with itself and I've never been robbed like your pal.

I'd say pay it and go small claims court if she wants the hassle. The car can only hold 50 litres and she was charged for 53. Open closed case I'd say. Unless the filler nozzle holds 3 litres which is doubtful. She could only really prove 3 litres though.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

iamtony wrote: »

I've had pumps do strange thinks and slow down and make noise but it's always caught up with itself and I've never been robbed like your pal.

I'd say pay it and go small claims court if she wants the hassle. The car can only hold 50 litres and she was charged for 53. Open closed case I'd say. Unless the filler nozzle holds 3 litres which is doubtful. She could only really prove 3 litres though.

Small claims court for a fiver?

tcawley29

If she thought something was wrong with the pump why did she continue filling?

Wishbone Ash

iamtony wrote: »

... The car can only hold 50 litres and she was charged for 53...

If the tank was empty that would be normal enough. I've put a few liters more than the given tank capacity in many cars when I used to be a pump attendant years ago. But, as the OP says, the tank wasn't empty.

Allinall

I’d pay it, write a letter to the owner/ head office and move on with my life.

If they’re a decent bunch you might get a partial refund or a voucher.

Otherwise just don’t give them any more business.

iamtony

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Small claims court for a fiver?

Well I was more thinking a refund for the whole fill-up just for the hassle. But I wouldn't be bothered myself I would of just paid it and moaned.

iamtony

tcawley29 wrote: »

If she thought something was wrong with the pump why did she continue filling?

Probably cause she needed fuel:pac: I've had pumps act strange and kept fueling I'd say most people would. And I've heard the gurgling sound before but the meter slows down normally when that happens

iamtony

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

If the tank was empty that would be normal enough. I've put a few liters more than the given tank capacity in many cars when I used to be a pump attendant years ago. But, as the OP says, the tank wasn't empty.

You'd have to wonder about the accuracy of the pumps years ago. They weren't verified aswell and sealed like they are nowdays

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

iamtony wrote: »

Well I was more thinking a refund for the whole fill-up just for the hassle. But I wouldn't be bothered myself I would of just paid it and moaned.

Why?! The only disputed amount is a few litres, not a full tank

tcawley29

iamtony wrote: »

Probably cause she needed fuel:pac: I've had pumps act strange and kept fueling I'd say most people would. And I've heard the gurgling sound before but the meter slows down normally when that happens

Yeah but surely it would make more sense to show someone from the filling station the issue or use another one of their pumps

Wishbone Ash

iamtony wrote: »

You'd have to wonder about the accuracy of the pumps years ago. They weren't verified aswell and sealed like they are nowdays

They used to be checked at random by the Garda Weights and Measures division.

Del2005

deandean wrote: »

A pal had this problem recently. It's new to me and I wonder if anyone has come across it before?
She always fills the tank just as the fuel warning light comes on. The fill quantity is always 41 to 42 liters. The manufacturer's stated petrol capacity is 50 litres.
She pulled into a filling station (major retailer) and started to fill the tank. The pump acted strangely: there was a lot of gurgling and the meter was slow / erratic in counting up. After about 25 litres indicated the pump stopped gurgling and returned to normal.
She went to pay and was charged for 53 litres. She said this is wrong; there was a problem with the pump. She offered to pay for 41-42 litres but the cashier wasn't having it. After discussions with the manager she left her details and left the bill unpaid.
She got in touch with the NSAI (who check pump calibration). Later she, the manager and an NSAI guy met, checked the pump, calibration was fine.
So the situation is still open. She doesn't know if the Gardai will be knocking at her door or if the fuel company has written this off.
There's no way that 53 litres was pumped into the tank. The tank capacity is stated as 50 litres and it was far from empty at the time.
I've had a petrol pump run out of fuel on me before: it simply stopped. I've never heard a gurgling sound from a pump, which seems to be the unique factor in this case.
Anyone come across this before, or have any ideas as to what happened?

Thanks!

Something similar happened me at a supermarket station. Pulled in and started pumping, noticed it wasn't right so removed the nozzle slightly and it was pumping air. Went into the shop and complained they reset the pump, tried again and it still pumped air. Wend in again and they cleared it. Tried a different pump and got air again. Just closed the fuel cap and drove off. In total I'd pumper €2 of air from 2 different pumps. Ever since I always hold the nozzle slightly out and start pumping slowly to make sure that it's pumping fuel not air.

All she'd be entitled to is the 3l as the tank can hold 50l. She can't prove that it had ~10l left.

jmreire

Del2005 wrote: »

Something similar happened me at a supermarket station. Pulled in and started pumping, noticed it wasn't right so removed the nozzle slightly and it was pumping air. Went into the shop and complained they reset the pump, tried again and it still pumped air. Wend in again and they cleared it. Tried a different pump and got air again. Just closed the fuel cap and drove off. In total I'd pumper €2 of air from 2 different pumps. Ever since I always hold the nozzle slightly out and start pumping slowly to make sure that it's pumping fuel not air.

All she'd be entitled to is the 3l as the tank can hold 50l. She can't prove that it had ~10l left.

Normally, the pump will gurgle if it is airlocked,,,but still it should only record pumped liquid. I've had cars that I could get a few extra ltr's into over and above the manufacturer's stated capacity, especially if it had run dry. I think that this a deliberate design feature. Most fuel feed pipes from the tank, don't actually reach 100% to the bottom of the tank,this is to prevent dirt or sediment which may have accumulated and is lying on the bottom of the tank from becoming sucked up and into the fuel line's and causing damage to the system

XLR 8

I remember using a remote filling site years ago. You needed a card to get fuel. Pulled up in a company car with zero fuel in it. Put the nozzle in to pump diesel and whoosh. Pump knocks off and I knew that no diesel had gone into tank. I turned the car on to check and it was still empty. I then tried the pumo again and it told me that daily limit 200l had been used. I was f@#ked. No fuel and the mobile was attached to the car with no signal. I tell you that was a long night. A farmer at 6 the next morning got me going with ahem! diesel. I've never relied on one since. In fairness I think it was Texaco who owned the site looked after me by was of compo.

Berserker5

I had a power interruption while filling

Jumped back up to 20 on the display when I had only put in a fraction of that

Another customer had the same problem so it was explainable

kirving

deandean wrote: »

Later she, the manager and an NSAI guy met, checked the pump, calibration was fine.

Calibration as such wouldn't be the culprit here, much more likely a fault of some kind. My guess here is some kind of airlock in the pump which is impossible to prove after the fact.

Calibration is to ensure that there isn't a systematic offset between the measurement and the true value caused by some consistent problem with the machine. A list of assumptions are made when doing the calibration process,a and number one of these is that the pump appears to be operating normally without error.

You'll often see a calibration sticker that says something like T = 15°C, to say that the pump is calibrated to be (most) accurate at 15°C. The further you go from this temperature, expansion / contraction of metal, and density changes within the fuel itself may cause an error.

In theory, this error will be 1-2% at absolute maximum, and the pumps these days probably account for it anyway. The 15°C sticker is nevertheless present to acknowledge that temperature could have an effect.

The problem your friend has now gotten themselves into by pursuing the calibration route as opposed to a one off error, is A) the calibration is almost certainly OK, and that the retailer will fight tooth and nail to prove it wasn't a calibration problem as news of this would cause reputational damage.

zilog_jones

deandean wrote: »

She went to pay and was charged for 53 litres.

Is that what it said at the pump before she went in to pay though? Maybe someone before her filled up 53 litres and did a runner, and she was paying for their fuel? Any previous unpaid fuelling would stay on the system until it is accounted for.

tcawley29

zilog_jones wrote: »

Is that what it said at the pump before she went in to pay though? Maybe someone before her filled up 53 litres and did a runner, and she was paying for their fuel? Any previous unpaid fuelling would stay on the system until it is accounted for.

It doesn't work like that.

Wishbone Ash

OSI wrote: »

As soon as you put the pump back in the holder it closes off that transaction, lifting the pump out of the holder will start a fresh transaction. Although many won't let you start a fresh transaction until the previous one has been marked as paid by the teller.

That reminds me of the little scam some people used to pull years ago at the smaller filling stations when there was no electronic connection between the pump and the shop/garage.

If the shop was particularly busy (e.g. pulling ice cream cones on a hot afternoon) lads would pull up and stick a fiver of petrol in the tank and wait. If there was no sign of anyone appearing, they'd reset the pump and stick another fiver and repeat until the staff appeared. When the staff did appear, they would merely look at the reading on the pump and charge accordingly.

mfceiling

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That reminds me of the little scam some people used to pull years ago at the smaller filling stations when there was no electronic connection between the pump and the shop/garage.

If the shop was particularly busy (e.g. pulling ice cream cones on a hot afternoon) lads would pull up and stick a fiver of petrol in the tank and wait. If there was no sign of anyone appearing, they'd reset the pump and stick another fiver and repeat until the staff appeared. When the staff did appear, they would merely look at the reading on the pump and charge accordingly.

I worked in my uncle's petrol station 30 years ago and we had awful trouble with our ethnic, travelling people doing this in their hiaces.
They would pull up to the diesel pump which wasn't within eyeshot of the shop. The kids would then be sent running into the shop where they would run amok lifting stuff, putting it back, asking prices etc.
The diesel pump was an old rotary one where you reset it with a handle and a turning switch. They would put in "x" amount then reset the pump and put in £2.
Come in to the shop, slap down "£2 of diesel boss" then call the kids to come on.
The uncle had a tyre garage beside the petrol station and would leg it to the pump every time he saw the vans pulling in!!

zilog_jones

OSI wrote: »

As soon as you put the pump back in the holder it closes off that transaction, lifting the pump out of the holder will start a fresh transaction. Although many won't let you start a fresh transaction until the previous one has been marked as paid by the teller.

I know, I worked in a petrol station. I'm saying maybe they paid for a previous (unpaid) transaction and not theirs.