Discrediting old irish legends

veryangryman

It's not well publicised that Yeats proposed to Maud Gonnes daughter as well.

Or that Kavanagh could be a bowsie at times to get his work out.

James Joyce hardly ever got caught fingering a young wan in the jacks or the likes?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

If by bowsie you mean unruly and drunk. Kavanagh was just like that. I knew him and he was foul mouthed and a pest when drinking. Not sure if you're saying this wasn't so or not.

odyssey06

veryangryman wrote: »

It's not well publicised that Yeats proposed to Maud Gonnes daughter as well.

Bit dubious on that one - I remember hearing about that in secondary school discussion of one of his poems, and there it is on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._B._Yeats#Marriage_to_Georgie_Hyde_Lees

Your Face

We tear it down, put nothing in its place and call it progress.

El_Duderino 09

Your Face wrote: »

We tear it down, put nothing in its place and call it progress.

I don't see why we don't just leave it where it is and talk about it and it's context, and call it history.

Don Joe

Marjorie Chubby Sodium wrote: »

If by bowsie you mean unruly and drunk. Kavanagh was just like that. I knew him and he was foul mouthed and a pest when drinking. Not sure if you're saying this wasn't so or not.

Interesting. He's dead 52 years ago. You must be blowing out a lot of candles on a cake these days

Are you from Monaghan?

veryangryman

veryangryman wrote: »

It's not well publicised that Yeats proposed to Maud Gonnes daughter as well.

Or that Kavanagh could be a bowsie at times to get his work out.

James Joyce hardly ever got caught fingering a young wan in the jacks or the likes?

How is any of this "Discrediting old irish legends"?

We expect our poets/artists to be deviants, alcoholics, homosexual, perverts, etc. I don't see how any if it is lessening their contributions... and as for old Irish legends... you're simply talking about famous Irish people from the past?

Hercule Poirot

Very disappointed - thread title led me to believe there would be a thorough debunking of the myth that Fionn MacCool built the Giants Causeway when we all know it was actually Paddy McGinty from back a hind

ILoveYourVibes

Op you just made them more awesome...they were rebels.

riffmongous

veryangryman wrote: »

It's not well publicised that Yeats proposed to Maud Gonnes daughter as well.

Or that Kavanagh could be a bowsie at times to get his work out.

James Joyce hardly ever got caught fingering a young wan in the jacks or the likes?

We got Joyce's letters to Nora, which are.. yeah

gozunda

Re Discrediting old irish legends

?

Is this part of the new English Leaving Cert syllabus then or something?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Don Joe wrote: »

Interesting. He's dead 52 years ago. You must be blowing out a lot of candles on a cake these days

Are you from Monaghan?

I was 23 when he died. Shared the Inniskeen bus with him many times in my youth.

corner of hells

Marjorie Chubby Sodium wrote: »

I was 23 when he died. Shared the Inniskeen bus with him many times in my youth.

By the " stoney grey soil " ?

ShamNNspace

Marjorie Chubby Sodium wrote: »

I was 23 when he died. Shared the Inniskeen bus with him many times in my youth.

Still working at 75 my hat off to you sir

Raconteuse

My mother was one of the trainee nurses who tended to him when he was dying. She says he was an awful bollox.

biko

Your Face wrote: »

We tear it down, put nothing in its place and call it progress.

They started work this morning down at city square
They're pulling down the statues of our great grandfather's hero
The new books said he wasn't such a great man after all
And anyway remember that the times they are a-changing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_bcoStFk4s

Widdershins

"Bowsie"

beejee

Your Face wrote: »

We tear it down, put nothing in its place and call it progress.

Rings true these days.

The devil makes work for idle hands, as the saying goes, but it's equally true for idle minds.

I fancy it to going to someone's funeral and insisting upon laying out all the negative and dark details of the persons life. Why do that? Who wants that? Who would appreciate that?

There's a line to avoid in propping up a person as a Saint, of course.

Idle minds with nothing to do but dig and nit pick and pull apart and be ultimately destructive, a sign of a decaying civilisation/society.

Let people be. Especially those that are not in a position to defend themselves.

Widdershins

Artistic people can have very strong/colourful/obnoxious/bizarre personalities. I guess it'sometimes a sign of curiosity about that.

razorblunt

Jonathan Rhys Myers’ is Jonathan O’Keeffe and he was an absolute eejit in school, not persecuted for his talent that everyone was blind too like he goes on about.

beejee

Widdershins wrote: »

Artistic people can have very strong/colourful/obnoxious/bizarre personalities. I guess it'sometimes a sign of curiosity about that.

That's true too. If someone is genuinely curious it can be a pleasure to read into people/topics and gain an appreciation of the subtleties involved, a balanced and nuanced "view"

The sincerity of the Internet, however, has the depth of a puddle. Everything is reduced, a sentence, a thought, and that's all. Just enough information to propagate the same shallow idea, and enough to sound knowledgeable to the unknowkedgeable.

A little information is a dangerous thing. Ah whatever, it's Saturday

Church on Tuesday

Marjorie Chubby Sodium wrote: »

If by bowsie you mean unruly and drunk. Kavanagh was just like that. I knew him and he was foul mouthed and a pest when drinking. Not sure if you're saying this wasn't so or not.

I don't doubt that's all true, Kavanagh was a pretty flawed individual but still a great poet.

Wompa1

Wasn't James Joyce a bit of a bollocks on the beer too? Starting fights and the like?

ShamNNspace

Wompa1 wrote: »

Wasn't James Joyce a bit of a bollocks on the beer too? Starting fights and the like?

Drink the Cross off an asses back that lad.. Don't know how he ever got time to be writin da bukes himsel an Nora wit his camog an eyeglass up around WoodQuay every morn waitin for the early house to open

Gynoid

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I don't doubt that's all true, Kavanagh was a pretty flawed individual but still a great poet.

I have known a few poets, most of them bowsies in one way or the other. I don't think one can have poetic vision without quite some suffering of the psyche. They leave their wounds raw, open. Of course it is a pain in the hole for those who live with them.
Kavanagh's line ''Through a chink too wide there comes in no wonder'' is up there among the greatest lines ever written (in my opinion). It is philosophy distilled.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

razorblunt wrote: »

Jonathan Rhys Myers’ is Jonathan O’Keeffe and he was an absolute eejit in school, not persecuted for his talent that everyone was blind too like he goes on about.

He has always seemed like a complete dose.

Church on Tuesday

Gynoid wrote: »

I have known a few poets, most of them bowsies in one way or the other. I don't think one can have poetic vision without quite some suffering of the psyche. They leave their wounds raw, open. Of course it is a pain in the hole for those who live with them.
Kavanagh's line ''Through a chink too wide there comes in no wonder'' is up there among the greatest lines ever written (in my opinion). It is philosophy distilled.

Ditto Charles Bukowski.

the purple tin

We've all heard about Brendan Behan's past and Flann O'Brien was an awful man for the drink too.
The real question should be are there any old irish writers and poets who didn't drink and were nice pleasant fellows?
Shaw maybe?

Bob Harris

I heard Miriam O'Callaghan was a virgin.

JohnnyFlash

the purple tin wrote: »

We've all heard about Brendan Behan's past and Flann O'Brien was an awful man for the drink too.
The real question should be are there any old irish writers and poets who didn't drink and were nice pleasant fellows?
Shaw maybe?

It’s not just Irish writers. Journalism and writing have always been professions/callings that have attracted degenerates and drunks.

elefant

veryangryman wrote: »

It's not well publicised that Yeats proposed to Maud Gonnes daughter as well.

Or that Kavanagh could be a bowsie at times to get his work out.

Both of these are extremely well publicised.

Duchamp

biko wrote: »

They started work this morning down at city square
They're pulling down the statues of our great grandfather's hero
The new books said he wasn't such a great man after all
And anyway remember that the times they are a-changing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_bcoStFk4s

Class album & band :cool: My first thought when I read Faces comment

Peregrinus

elefant wrote: »

Both of these are extremely well publicised.

This. I'm not sure what "legends" the OP thinks he is discrediting. Has anybody anywhere ever heard a story that Kavanagh was polite, gentlemanly and a pleasure to spend time with?

veryangryman

elefant wrote: »

Both of these are extremely well publicised.

I don't recall the Yeats/daughter story being mentioned in school while we analysed his themes of unrequited love for Gonne Senior. Guess there's no marks going for it in English Paper 2. As for Kavanagh, yeah a little publicised but again, his poetry is what people discuss

elefant

veryangryman wrote: »

I don't recall the Yeats/daughter story being mentioned in school while we analysed his themes of unrequited love for Gonne Senior. Guess there's no marks going for it in English Paper 2. As for Kavanagh, yeah a little publicised but again, his poetry is what people discuss

It was certainly discussed when I did the leaving, particularly as 'Easter,1916' directly names the man Maud Gonne chose to marry ahead of Yeats.

The way we were taught the English LC course wasn't exactly revolutionary, but Yeats's quirks around his personal life and whacky spiritual beliefs were definitely covered.

Marcos

Wompa1 wrote: »

Wasn't James Joyce a bit of a bollocks on the beer too? Starting fights and the like?

When he was in Paris he'd be out drinking with Hemingway, then he'd start fights and get Hemingway to finish them!

EmmetSpiceland

As for that member’s name change after “closing” their account, I have no idea why that happened.

Possibly it’s to scramble any searches for their original “handle”? I wouldn’t expect any explanations to be forthcoming anytime soon.

seamus

There's a bit of chicken-and-egg stuff when it comes to artists and substance abuse issues.

The lifestyle of being a full-time artist lends itself to lots of downtime and socialising...and drinking.

People with more stable 9-to-5 jobs don't really have the free time to be going to the pub every night, or the freedom to be getting out of bed at 11am hungover on a Wednesday.

This was as true in 1850 and 1950 as it is today.

Ten of Swords

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

As for that member’s name change after “closing” their account, I have no idea why that happened.

Possibly it’s to scramble any searches for their original “handle”?

Mod

This is what happens once a GDPR request has been processed.

I've removed a number of off topic posts from this thread now move on from this please

CrankyHaus

I think Shane McGowan claimed that Kavanagh mooned after his mother, a model, in a slightly creepy way. He does seem to have been a fairly abrasive guy, but that's people from Monaghan for you.

John B Keane came off as a good natured drunk, there's footage on the internet.

From memory the Rocky Road to Dublin, the film from the 60s has footage of some of our literary or artistic figures from the time taking a piss in the street, probably the worse for wear. I can't remember who it showed though.

Lollipops23

CrankyHaus wrote: »

John B Keane came off as a good natured drunk, there's footage on the internet.

There's a wonderful piece somewhere showing his wife saying how they hate when he quits drinking and that they beg him to take it back up again as he was so unbearable off the gargle.

veryangryman

Lollipops23 wrote: »

There's a wonderful piece somewhere showing his wife saying how they hate when he quits drinking and that they beg him to take it back up again as he was so unbearable off the gargle.

A sad reflection of how life was at the time that one would be encouraged/coerced to keep on the substance.

weldoninhio

veryangryman wrote: »

It's not well publicised that Yeats proposed to Maud Gonnes daughter as well.

Or that Kavanagh could be a bowsie at times to get his work out.

James Joyce hardly ever got caught fingering a young wan in the jacks or the likes?

I heard Phil Lynott was on heroin. Am I doing it right??

ohnonotgmail

veryangryman wrote: »

A sad reflection of how life was at the time that one would be encouraged/coerced to keep on the substance.

Nothing to do with life at the time more that he was an awful grumpy bollix when he wasn't drinking.

Lollipops23

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Nothing to do with life at the time more that he was an awful grumpy bollix when he wasn't drinking.

It certainly seemed like that tbh; his wife seemed very good humoured about it all.

Another fact that often gets overlooked is the hard work and intelligence behind the drink, drugs, dissolute lifestyles.

Shane McGowan won a literature scholarship to Westminster school, he fused punk and trad music to invent a new genre of music.

Mike Scott of the Waterboy went to Edinburgh University to study English literature and philosophy, in the 1970s you would have needed to be at the top academically to offered a place, he is also a multi-instrumentalist and successful musician.


There are hundreds of examples like that.

housetypeb

When I was younger I always thought a bit less of Cuchuliann for using the the Gae Bolga to defeat Ferdia at the ford, it smacked of dishonor, and desperation.
Now that's how you discredit an old legend.

the purple tin

housetypeb wrote: »

When I was younger I always thought a bit less of Cuchuliann for using the the Gae Bolga to defeat Ferdia at the ford, it smacked of dishonor, and desperation.
Now that's how you discredit an old legend.

Ah like he had to do something, the fight would have went on forever otherwise.

ShamNNspace

CrankyHaus wrote: »

I think Shane McGowan claimed that Kavanagh mooned after his mother, a model, in a slightly creepy way. He does seem to have been a fairly abrasive guy, but that's people from Monaghan for you.

John B Keane came off as a good natured drunk, there's footage on the internet.

From memory the Rocky Road to Dublin, the film from the 60s has footage of some of our literary or artistic figures from the time taking a piss in the street, probably the worse for wear. I can't remember who it showed though.

I've never heard of John B being described as a drunk.. Whether of the good natured type or otherwise

farmchoice

veryangryman wrote: »

I don't recall the Yeats/daughter story being mentioned in school while we analysed his themes of unrequited love for Gonne Senior. Guess there's no marks going for it in English Paper 2. As for Kavanagh, yeah a little publicised but again, his poetry is what people discuss

well, we learned all about it in junior cert english in 1992, the poem yeat's wrote about maude gonne's daughter isult was on the junior cert syllabus.

SnazzyPig

CrankyHaus wrote: »

From memory the Rocky Road to Dublin, the film from the 60s has footage of some of our literary or artistic figures from the time taking a piss in the street, probably the worse for wear. I can't remember who it showed though.

I think that's Kavanagh, Flann O'Brien and Anthony Cronin after a night on the town.