Battery vs Plug in HEV

Gael23

What is the difference in how these work? I’m not understanding th benefit of. PHEV

KCross

Battery EV has nothing but batteries (24kWh+) and has range of 120-450km.
PHEV has a "small" battery (5-15kWh) but still has a full petrol engine for journeys outside the range of the small battery (<50km).

Grumpypants

Gael23 wrote: »

What is the difference in how these work? I’m not understanding th benefit of. PHEV

You drive around on battery 95% of the time but that time you need to go on a long trip you just use the engine.

Gael23

KCross wrote: »

Battery EV has nothing but batteries (24kWh+) and has range of 120-450km.
PHEV has a "small" battery (5-15kWh) but still has a full petrol engine for journeys outside the range of the small battery (<50km).

So if after 50km of city driving you should run out of battery you start to run a 1.8l petrol engine?

biko

Yes, the engine kicks in automatically when you're low on battery

KCross

Gael23 wrote: »

So if after 50km of city driving you should run out of battery you start to run a 1.8l petrol engine?

Yes. I think most are 1.6l now though.

The engine can also run before the battery is dead if you go hard on the accelerator. The engine will kick in for a few seconds to give you more power.

It’s all controlled automatically but if you are mainly doing short city driving with some long runs thrown in at weekends or whatever, PHEV is a good option for now while there is a lack of choice in BEV cars.... particularly if you are a one car house and current BEVs don’t suit.

Gael23

In that case for someone doing longer journeys diesel would still be better

KCross

Gael23 wrote: »

In that case for someone doing longer journeys diesel would still be better

Than a PHEV, probably yes.

It depends on how long and how often the "long" journeys are. Its not black or white. You need to look at your overall mileage for the year.

Some details here...
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111052681&postcount=106

Snippet:

I've driven a few and did extended test drives and have also done a Cork-Dublin-Cork in the one day in it with no charging in Dublin so leaving Cork on a full charge, drove at 125km/h (indicated), parked up in Dublin and drive home on an empty battery so all petrol driving on the way home.

It did 4.9l/100km on the way up and 5.4l/100km on the way home.
So, it is decent enough in hybrid mode even at full motorway speed.

mickdw

Gael23 wrote: »

In that case for someone doing longer journeys diesel would still be better

Yes but very much depends on how long the daily journey.
If for example your car has 40 km Of electric range, it would probably still beat a diesel over 80km daily if you charge it Every night on cheap electricity.

adunis

I’m not understanding th benefit of. PHEV

You and me both Mr.

I dispise the things.

KCross

adunis wrote: »

I’m not understanding th benefit of. PHEV

You and me both Mr.

I dispise the things.

? If you don’t understand them why do you despise them?

kanuseeme

Whats so hard to understand?

For short journeys > 50 km = cheap driving

For slightly longer > 80 km better than a diesel

For a full days driving a Niro phev does nearly the same as a diesel.

Cannot be that hard? Or is it something else? jealous maybe?

biko

Focus on how you can help OP.

adunis

I've explained this before
Either commit and go BEV or just keep driving your efficient modern ICE.
They are a waste of resources and a plague upon the charging infrastructure,jealous ? I don't think so.as a matter of fact my own outlander driving sister didn't speak to me for months after I shared my opinion.
They are a tax dodge pure and simple ,oh and a wonderful combination of the worst of both worlds.
I will HAPPILY exclude the I3 REX, I.E the BEV with a tiny little emergency generator .

mickdw

adunis wrote: »

I've explained this before
Either commit and go BEV or just keep driving your efficient modern ICE.
They are a waste of resources and a plague upon the charging infrastructure,jealous ? I don't think so.as a matter of fact my own outlander driving sister didn't speak to me for months after I shared my opinion.
They are a tax dodge pure and simple ,oh and a wonderful combination of the worst of both worlds.
I will HAPPILY exclude the I3 REX, I.E the BEV with a tiny little emergency generator .

I will happily grab that tax break thanks.
Nice petrol engine. Lots of power, cheap running day to day, cheap tax and vrt. silent running around town versus that terrible diesel stop start that is everywhere now.
Plus it really annoys the hippies when a motorist gets a tax break in the name of being green.

KCross

adunis wrote: »

I've explained this before
Either commit and go BEV or just keep driving your efficient modern ICE.

Thats not admitting the reality of the real world where we have poor BEV choice and terrible charging infrastructure.

Why continue with current ICE if PHEV suits? It doesnt have to be one or the other in the same way you dont just have one choice of ICE (petrol, diesel, 1l, 2l etc) Pick the right tool for the job.

adunis wrote: »

They are a waste of resources and a plague upon the charging infrastructure,

Why are they a waste of resouerces? I could actually argue the opposite relative to BEV but Im interested why you think its a waste of resources.

I agree PHEV's shouldnt be on rapids, if thats all you mean, but thats an issue for the charging operator not the car's fault.

adunis wrote: »

They are a tax dodge pure and simple ,oh and a wonderful combination of the worst of both worlds.

They will be a dodge for emissions fines so somewhat true but again, if it works for you and a BEV does not whats the issue?

NIMAN

Grumpypants wrote: »

You drive around on battery 95% of the time but that time you need to go on a long trip you just use the engine.

Thats only if you are city driving surely? Or short trips?
What is all/most of your driving is long trips?

Grumpypants

NIMAN wrote: »

Thats only if you are city driving surely? Or short trips?
What is all/most of your driving is long trips?

You need something to fit your needs.

I do a 40km rural / motorway drive to work. So it's 80km a day. 400km a week. All on battery. I visit the parents once a month so will do a 200km round trip.

So out of the 2000km i do around 100 is on petrol.

That is a massive reduction in cost and harmful emissions. Plus the smaller battery in a phev is significantly less impartial to produce on the environment.

Grumpypants

adunis wrote: »

I've explained this before
Either commit and go BEV or just keep driving your efficient modern ICE.
They are a waste of resources and a plague upon the charging infrastructure,jealous ? I don't think so.as a matter of fact my own outlander driving sister didn't speak to me for months after I shared my opinion.
They are a tax dodge pure and simple ,oh and a wonderful combination of the worst of both worlds.
I will HAPPILY exclude the I3 REX, I.E the BEV with a tiny little emergency generator .

Producing small batteries can be done much faster. If everyone focussed on getting into a phev and off ICE then we would see a massive cut in harmful emissions and it would give the bev time to get up to mass market. Right now a cheap bev is 40k which is out of most peoples reach.

adunis

I can't afford 40k either ,but I have 2 bevs

krissovo

Grumpypants wrote: »

Right now a cheap bev is 40k which is out of most peoples reach.

40k for a cheap BEV is nonsense, 26k will get you into a Zoe. The leaf with scrappage will be similar, Ioniq around 30k. Still pricey enough but below the average new car price in Ireland.

Grumpypants

krissovo wrote: »

40k for a cheap BEV is nonsense, 26k will get you into a Zoe. The leaf with scrappage will be similar, Ioniq around 30k. Still pricey enough but below the average new car price in Ireland.

The price if a Zeo starts at 37k. That's the bog standard version. It's artificially lowered with grants but that isn't sustainable for mass market adoption.

To get to 1 million cars it would cost the government 10 billion.

Phevs are a better option for mass adoption.

KCross

adunis wrote: »

I can't afford 40k either ,but I have 2 bevs

I dont get your logic. Are you saying because it works for you it works for the majority?

For me to go to 2 BEV's one of them would need to be a Niro or a Tesla.... or a PHEV.


The reality is that PHEV's are required until BEV's become more affordable and appear in much larger volumes and choice.

Also think... you can have almost 10 PHEV's for the size of one long range BEV. Which is the better option considering the mining etc that has to be done to produce them if the focus is on emissions?

At least the batteries in the 10 PHEV's are likely to be fully utilised every day. A large portion of the long range BEV battery will be unused most days except for the long journeys.

As I said, it doesnt have to be one or the other. Pick the right tool for the job.... for you thats two BEV's. For lots of others its not yet viable.

adunis

The reality is that PHEV's are required until BEV's become more affordable and appear in much larger volumes and choice.

Also think... you can have almost 10 PHEV's for the size of one long range BEV. Which is the better option considering the mining etc that has to be done to produce them if the focus is on emissions?

At least the batteries in the 10 PHEV's are likely to be fully utilised every day. A large portion of the long range BEV battery will be unused most days except for the long journeys.

As I said, it doesnt have to be one or the other. Pick the right tool for the job.... for you thats two BEV's. For lots of others its not yet viable.

And until people stop buying stupid phevs there won't be mass adoptation or volumes of choice a little bit of"hardship" is to be expected if your an early adopter.
The charging infrastructure is far from terrible and isevolving rapidly.
Big assed battery EVs , they are not the way forward
40kwH /250 ISH km is all that's needed in ANY country especially I little itty bitty one,how big is your bladder really ?
Obviously the infrastructure model choice etc will lag behind until there is mass acceptance.you know the same way there wasn't a chemist shop selling petroleum spiriton every street corner back in the mists of time.

Pricing whether it ever reaches parity or not ultimately won't matter depreciation secondhand values trade insect etc will correspondingly adjust.
Finally this bol@#ckology that a Zoë etc is 37 grand not 27 annoys the hell out of me,if they prematurely pull the grants then the revolution is finished and us early adopters wil just get to keep our expensive curiosities.
So to recap

I personally do not see a place for/like hybrids.

Peter T

A bit of a hijack but can you switch between electric and "normal" mode on a PHEV ? reason I'm asking is my commute is a mix of cross town/ city driving. I commute around 100k daily in total, roughly 40k of that is town/city driving so if I could run it on electric for these sections it would be ideal. The rest is cruising at 100kph

KCross

adunis wrote: »

Big assed battery EVs , they are not the way forward
40kwH /250 ISH km is all that's needed in ANY country especially I little itty bitty one,how big is your bladder really ?

Bigger than 250km's anyway and if you think mass adoption is possibe with 250km range EV you're going to be massively disappointed.

adunis wrote: »

I personally do not see a place for/like hybrids.

And thats fair enough. You've certainly got a strong view point on it but I dont think the majority will agree with you. They're going to want more than 250km and if you take that 250km car and put it on the motorway at 120km/h in winter, how far do you get? Its not good enough for mass adoption.

Lots of people expect to be able to do 250km without stopping. Its a little over 2hrs to go from Cork-Dublin. I often do that without stopping.

And a cursory look at the main motors forum will tell you that lots of people are not ready for EV's. We need to be realistic.

I understand PHEV's are not ideal. It would be better if all cars were affordable BEV but they arent and wont be for quite some time. In the meantime PHEV is a very good alternative available today. It gives you zero emissions on your daily drive and it isnt diesel. Whats not to like about that. Thats all good surely?

KCross

Peter T wrote: »

A bit of a hijack but can you switch between electric and "normal" mode on a PHEV ? reason I'm asking is my commute is a mix of cross town/ city driving. I commute around 100k daily in total, roughly 40k of that is town/city driving so if I could run it on electric for these sections it would be ideal. The rest is cruising at 100kph

Yes, you can.

However, 100km is well beyong the range of most PHEV's, so you'd want to take one on trial before going that direction. They work best when your daily driving is within the electric range. You're more than double that so it might not be the right choice.

Would it be your only car in the house?
If not, you could get a "cheap" EV to cover that 100km in all electric and use the other car for longer journeys.

kanuseeme

You say 100 km in total, can you charge in work ? if you can then close to 80% of your commute will be ev, or go with the cheap ev if you have 2 cars,

Peter T

I'm a bit off buying one yet but open to electric too when the time comes. Circumstances could change and my commute could be less in that time. Trying to get an understanding of the EV and PHEV world as its something I've little involvement it.

To add charging at work is an option also

krissovo

PHEV's should only be the option for the limited population who are not covered by the charging infrastructure or have the savage distance commutes of 250kms or above. They are compromised in both ICE and Battery driving, extra weight, more to go wrong, driving dynamics, low battery range etc.

Flood the roads with PHEV's and you make more excuses for not going BEV once the chargers are full of slow charging PHEV's. PHEV's are now taking up a lot of the destination chargers that I encounter particularly at work or around town.

We are a 2 BEV household since August, we adapted easily enough it just needs some minor changes in mindset. We do long journeys no problem, we accept that going Cork to Dublin for example takes 45/60 minutes longer return than it did before BEV and I drive at speed limits rather than before exceeding them. There is no change to my daily commute of 96km's apart from when I come home I plug in so I always start full. I paid just over 30k for a new SVE leaf and 21k for 172 I3 so not massive money.

KCross

krissovo wrote: »

We are a 2 BEV household since August, we adapted easily enough it just needs some minor changes in mindset. We do long journeys no problem, we accept that going Cork to Dublin for example takes 45/60 minutes longer return than it did before BEV...

Thats the thing though, thats not a minor change in mindset.

I wouldnt accept a Cork - Dublin trip taking an extra 60mins and I think a sizeable portion of the buying public wont either. Why would they?

And thats from someone who has actually done that trip in a BEV but I only did it as a trial, i had no kids and had no time pressure and it worked fine under those circumstances but I wouldnt do it again.

We also take the family to UK/France via ferry as do tens of thousands of other families every year... taking a BEV is possible but I dont need charging infrastructure stress on my holiday... its a holiday after all!


If the manufacturers gave us loads of BEV's at reasonable prices and we had decent charging infrastructure 'twould all be grand... but it's not and it wont be for many years..... every new BEV that comes out disappoints on price.... new Ioniq €36k!!!!

Regardless of what any of us think, the EU emissions regulations are tied down until 2030 and they specifically allow/encourage PHEV's, so they are here to stay.

The only thing that will push out PHEV's is when BEV's drop in price via competition.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Regardless of what any of us think, the EU emissions regulations are tied down until 2030 and they specifically allow/encourage PHEV's, so they are here to stay.

That sums it up. PHEV will be with us for several more years because of the very mild emissions regime they are subject too. That's the only reason really. They are compliance cars.

Kramer

KCross wrote: »

every new BEV that comes out disappoints on price.... new Ioniq €36k!!!!

It's worse really. It's €46k - that €10k "reduction" is being funded by everyone, ICE drivers included .
Take for instance, a poor student, commuting to college in an old, pre '08 diesel. They can't afford accommodation in the city or afford a new green BEV, yet they are contributing to someone's shiney new €46k Ioniq.

Lot of misplaced PHEV hate too .

KCross

unkel wrote: »

That sums it up. PHEV will be with us for several more years because of the very mild emissions regime they are subject too. That's the only reason really. They are compliance cars.

Sort of. They are emission fines dodgers rather than compliance cars.

A compliance car is one which is only available on paper but not actively sold but still allows the manufacturer to gain access to that market.

Thats not the case for PHEV's so they are not compliance cars as such but they will be used/abused by manufacturers to hold back on a quicker transition to BEV alright.

That's the only reason really.

Not sure of that. If you were to look at it with rose tinted glasses and banned all ICE (inc PHEV) would the world really be able to ramp up BEV production to match? I dont think it would, even in the next decade.

Being idealistic is honourable but we need to be realistic. So, what do you do in that case? PHEV is alot better than diesel.

Kramer

KCross wrote: »

Being idealistic is honourable but we need to be realistic. So, what do you do in that case?

I think there's a cohort who believe we should all regress to eating grass & cycling .

PHEVs can work. I don't subscribe to the "BEV" or nothing mantra. Even diesel has its place IMO & will do for decades to come.

bk

From a government policy perspective and environmental perspective, PHEV's actually make more sense at the moment then BEV's.

It is important to note, the the average daily distance driven in Ireland is just 46km.

So a Tesla Model 3 with 62kWh has a 500km range, but on average is saving just 46km's of CO2/PM/NOX daily.

But for the same amount of battery cells, you could build 4 x PHEV's with 15kWh of battery each, each with a 50km range, which end up saving 184km's CO2/PM/NOX daily

Investing in PHEV's would have a much better impact on the environment quicker then investing the same amount of Battery cells in long range EV's.

Of course I think all of us on this forum would prefer a long range, affordable EV, but when it comes to government policy, fleet policy and overall impact on the environment, it can be a lot more complicated.

KCross

Kramer wrote: »

I think there's a cohort who believe we should all regress to eating grass & cycling .

Well, if you do that you'll be belching more methane and you know thats not good for the environment! :pac:

MaceFace

I drive a 330e PHEV and have a daily 80km commute with a electric range of only 23km in this weather.
However, as I can charge in work, over the past 1500km, I am averaging 3.4l/100km.

Better for me and better for the environment. The only downside I can see is I lose a little bit of boot space and the car is a little heavier.

I have no concerns about the government losing out on additional revenue because those adopting PHEV and BEV are helping the manufacturers develop the technology, something they would be less inclined to do if much fewer people were buying them today - which would be the case if there were no grants or subsidies.

zilog_jones

krissovo wrote: »

PHEV's should only be the option for the limited population who are not covered by the charging infrastructure or have the savage distance commutes of 250kms or above.

A PHEV makes little sense unless the EV range covers your commute (or whatever regular driving) and you have charging at home. Someone with a very long commute is barely going to see the benefits.

They are compromised in both ICE and Battery driving, extra weight, more to go wrong, driving dynamics, low battery range etc.

What a load of horseshît. My Prius Plug-in doesn't drive any worse than a standard Prius, the 100 kg extra weight is negligible, and it's no less efficient (US EPA fuel economy figures in petrol-only operation are almost identical). Nobody's complaining about the "driving dynamics" of the 330e, Golf GTE, etc. either. Only real compromise in most cases is reduced boot space (no spare wheel for me).

Of course they have lower range - you can't have it both ways. I've still got a 45 litre petrol tank (which generally lasts well over a month between fills).

My EV range of 16-18 km (older 2012 model) covers my commute and most local driving, and about 40% of my driving overall. Most of my ICE usage is outside of populated areas (it's not a diesel either). I've halved my running costs compared to a diesel. At the time of purchase, my only realistic EV option within my budget was a 24 kWH Leaf which can barely do Cork-Limerick - not a practical option for me. I can't afford a new EV.

adunis

EXACTLY what krissovo said ,more elequently than me,and yes I do have extremely strong opinions on the subject

KCross

MaceFace wrote: »

I drive a 330e PHEV and have a daily 80km commute with a electric range of only 23km in this weather.
However, as I can charge in work, over the past 1500km, I am averaging 3.4l/100km.

The upcoming PHEV's should have double or triple that range as they seem to be moving towards ~15kWh batteries which should open up full EV driving to alot more people.

krissovo

KCross wrote: »

Thats the thing though, thats not a minor change in mindset.

I wouldnt accept a Cork - Dublin trip taking an extra 60mins and I think a sizeable portion of the buying public wont either. Why would they?

And thats from someone who has actually done that trip in a BEV but I only did it as a trial, i had no kids and had no time pressure and it worked fine under those circumstances but I wouldnt do it again.

We also take the family to UK/France via ferry as do tens of thousands of other families every year... taking a BEV is possible but I dont need charging infrastructure stress on my holiday... its a holiday after all!


If the manufacturers gave us loads of BEV's at reasonable prices and we had decent charging infrastructure 'twould all be grand... but it's not and it wont be for many years..... every new BEV that comes out disappoints on price.... new Ioniq €36k!!!!

Regardless of what any of us think, the EU emissions regulations are tied down until 2030 and they specifically allow/encourage PHEV's, so they are here to stay.

The only thing that will push out PHEV's is when BEV's drop in price via competition.

Cork > Dublin does not take an extra hour, Cork > Dublin > Cork takes an extra hour. I am not going to argue at all if this not acceptable to you as only you can make that call but at some point in the near future you will pay for the privilege of not stopping. Either a big battery EV or hyper taxed fuel.

If your holidays are cruising France again I cannot argue, I will be taking the Model 3 next year to France but it will be long range and a decent supercharger network on my route so should be of little inconvenience but that’s down to the car.