Insurance Fraud - Who is to blame

Pintman Paddy Losty

It's widely reported in the media that Ireland has an issue with Insurance fraud. Much higher claims and a higher frequency of claims than other countries.

Who do you think is to blame for this culture? What are the solutions?

In my opinion blame lies mostly with the judicial system. I think there needs to be a complete overhaul of the system for compensation entirely.

Rules should be implemented whereby people are obligated to go to a independent body like PIAB before issuing court proceedings. Too often greedy legal professionals will push their clients to go straight to court and claim much higher damages.

If PIAB and the book of quantum was adhered to I believe the costs of insurance would see a dramatic reduction.

I do think Fine Gael have done some great work on reforming the legal system. They've been frustrated by vested interests in the seanad but its a good start.

Speaking from experience as a business owner - I run a very successful building supply store - I have seen an increase in premiums but nothing too dramatic. If you run your business sensibly and take the right precautions you can prevent most chancers from taking you to court.

I'd rather not discuss individual cases that have already been done to death. Let's try and have a high standard of debate here.

Boggles

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Rules should be implemented whereby people are obligated to go to a independent body like PIAB before issuing court proceedings.

That is all ready a rule.

The vast vast majority of cases do not get near a court.

James Brown

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

It's widely reported in the media that Ireland has an issue with Insurance fraud. Much higher claims and a higher frequency of claims than other countries.

Who do you think is to blame for this culture? What are the solutions?

In my opinion blame lies mostly with the judicial system. I think there needs to be a complete overhaul of the system for compensation entirely.

Rules should be implemented whereby people are obligated to go to a independent body like PIAB before issuing court proceedings. Too often greedy legal professionals will push their clients to go straight to court and claim much higher damages.

If PIAB and the book of quantum was adhered to I believe the costs of insurance would see a dramatic reduction.

I do think Fine Gael have done some great work on reforming the legal system. They've been frustrated by vested interests in the seanad but its a good start.

Speaking from experience as a business owner - I run a very successful building supply store - I have seen an increase in premiums but nothing too dramatic. If you run your business sensibly and take the right precautions you can prevent most chancers from taking you to court.

I'd rather not discuss individual cases that have already been done to death. Let's try and have a high standard of debate here.

But it's all always about individual cases. Like most things being able to point to examples is key. That's what makes issues noticeable.

It's hard to take them as genuine what with Bailey and Farrell with their fraudulent claims, oh and Bailey and Farrell and their fraudulent expense claims. Then we've Leo doing nothing of note about it.
Like most things, people see government at this and then ask them to do as I say, not as I do? Doesn't settle well Paddy.

So nothing to see here?

banie01

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's hard to take them as genuine what with Bailey and Farrell with their fraudulent claims, oh and Bailey and Farrell and their fraudulent expense claims. Then we've Leo doing nothing of note about it.
Like most things, people see government at this and then ask them to do as I say, not as I do? Doesn't settle well Paddy.

Quite funny that this thread about the virtues of Fine Gaels efforts to reform the insurance system...
Gets started, by our resident FG Acolyte and source of all things being well in the state!
As it comes to light that the 2 shining lights of FG insurance good practice, in Alan Farrell and Maria Bailey are exposed as also having inflated their expenses.

When they couldn't make money from the insurers, they stole it directly from the state.
Quite telling that of 9 FG'ers audited, 4 were non-compliant!
You'd swear there was a culture of grasping there
Would put those dole scroungers they seem so wary of to bloody shame

meeeeh

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Speaking from experience as a business owner - I run a very successful building supply store - I have seen an increase in premiums but nothing too dramatic. If you run your business sensibly and take the right precautions you can prevent most chancers from taking you to court.

I'd rather not discuss individual cases that have already been done to death. Let's try and have a high standard of debate here.

They assess by sector too. If you are dealing mainly with trade you probably won't be at as much risk as play centre.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Only a couple of posts in and already people trying to drag the high level discussion down in to the gutter slinging mud at me.

Matt, what is your opinion on the judicial reform bill? Think it will have an effect on insurance fraud?

I see there's another thread on some minor accounting errors in TDs expenses. Hopefully you can keep discussion of that topic to there and the adults can have a proper discussion here.

McMurphy

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Only a couple of posts in and already people trying to drag the high level discussion down in to the gutter slinging mud at me.

Matt, what is your opinion on the judicial reform bill? Think it will have an effect on insurance fraud?

I see there's another thread on some minor accounting errors in TDs expenses. Hopefully you can keep discussion of that topic to there and the adults can have a proper discussion here.

The politics forum be the place for that, and regardless, I obviously missed your move to moderator status that granted you any kind of authority to dictate and set the tone or contents of a thread.

James Brown

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Only a couple of posts in and already people trying to drag the high level discussion down in to the gutter slinging mud at me.

Matt, what is your opinion on the judicial reform bill? Think it will have an effect on insurance fraud?

I see there's another thread on some minor accounting errors in TDs expenses. Hopefully you can keep discussion of that topic to there and the adults can have a proper discussion here.

It's mud if you think it mud, for everyday people it's everyday life. Personal stories carry the tone.
Just because you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it inaccurate or insulting talk.

Isn't PIAB before court when claiming an old rule ?

'minor accounting errors'. You're not here to discuss anything are you?

jimgoose

You mean the Judicial Appointments bill thaat Michael McDowell has been manfully filibustering for twelve months or so? I think Shane Ross is an idiot and I can't see his committee of "lay-people" doing anyone any good.

Regarding insurance fraud itself, it seems to me that what with outrageous legal costs in this jurisdiction, insurance companies are making financial calls to settle cases they know damn well are fraudulent and/or spurious because it's vastly cheaper, especially when they can then howl about it when questioned about passing these on to customers as higher premia. This setup needs to change.

lola85

Fraud and payouts don’t equate to the prices of premiums.

Insurance companies are lying and have been caught out by Pearse Doherty.

votecounts

Maria Bailey and Alan Farrell, end of thread:)

Geuze

Here is my solution.

Legislate to cut the Book of Quantum figures by 90%.

All awards for whiplash are in vouchers for physio.

Sweet.Science

Piab doesnt stop insurance fraud . Piab evaluates fraudulent claims and offers a settlement amount to the claimant and insurer . An insurance company then decides to accept it or reject it and go to court .

HorrorScope

Just to preface this I’m no fan of Sinn Fein at all, but Pearse Doherty here played an absolute blinder. If any of you are wondering how much “insurance fraud” drives up cover prices, just watch this in full. Nothing but a cartel in operation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6GyT5cV6jw

McMurphy

lola85 wrote: »

Fraud and payouts don’t equate to the prices of premiums.

Insurance companies are lying and have been caught out by Pearse Doherty.

You have schooled on this before lola, the two things aren't mutually exclusive, if we didn't have a compo culture aided and abetted in no small way by ambulance chasing lawyers, the insurance companies wouldn't be hiding behind their excuses.

I'm surprised you yet again have posted the above tbh.

holyhead

1. The level of awards which encourages claims
2. The onus on the defendant to prove innocence
3. The lack of punishment for submitting a dubious claim
4. The legal gravy train sustained by the compo culture

Leo Varadkar has a lot to answer for too in how he handled the Maria Bailey case.

Overheal

I blame Boards tbh. 20 years of people deriding the US legal system for lawsuits over hot coffee and dry cleaned pants left you all with the jaded belief that to get rich you needed to sue people for exaggerated damages

lola85

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You have schooled on this before lola, the two things aren't mutually exclusive, if we didn't have a compo culture aided and abetted in no small way by ambulance chasing lawyers, the insurance companies wouldn't be hiding behind their excuses.

I'm surprised you yet again have posted the above tbh.

Totally agree.

All to blame including those two morons, we all know who.

Harry Palmr

The system is just a ride for some thankfully sense prevailed

https://waterford-news.ie/2020/12/09/multiple-crash-family-lose-high-court-injury-appeal/

Mary Ward, The Glen, Waterford city, and her sister Kathleen Ward, Anne Street, Waterford city, had originally taken an action against their sister, Ann Marie Ria Ward, who was the driver of a Toyota Corolla carrying five members of the Ward family in total when it crashed into a concrete pillar

Stephen Lanigan O’Keeffe BL, acting on behalf of the driver of the car, put it to Ms Ward that “every three years the Ward family have a single vehicle accident and the family members claim against the driver.”

“The car always seems to be full when the Wards go out,” Mr Lanigan O’Keeffe said. “No seat is left empty… you must be a very close family.” Mary Ward agreed that they were.

In 2009, €60k in compensation was paid out after a single vehicle incident, in which Mary Ward was the driver. In 2012, there was another single vehicle incident where a dog “was once again blamed” and there was a payout of €65k.

Mary Ward said “we can’t help it if accidents happen”.

“We didn’t get into a car and set out to do this,” she said. “Why would we do that a week before my sister’s wedding? Why would we risk hurting ourselves?”

She said that there wasn’t a pattern, but that it was a “coincidence”.

Anthony Graham, a claims investigator from AXA Insurance, said that there were a number of red flags in this case, such as the fact that it was a single vehicle collision, no witnesses, high occupancy in the car, and that it was similar to other claims made by the family.

Judge Miriam O’Regan upheld the Circuit Court decision to dismiss the case because she said that what was brought forward as the cause of the accident, that is a “dog of some description”, was not properly proven. Nor was there any evidence of any evasive action taken by the driver of the car.

“It has not been established that the accident occurred because of negligence of the driver,” Judge O’Regan said before dismissing the case with the plaintiff liable for all costs.

ILoveYourVibes

Can you imagine how much Irish people would scam health insurance if we had no public health service.

They would all be getting nose jobs on the grounds of a deviated septum.

Like this young girl. She got her health insurance to pay 25 k of 35k for a nose job on the basis of a 'deviated septum'.

And all the people in the US who cant afford health insurance because its so high???

Gimmie a break.

By the way ...the surgeon didn't even TOUCH her septum ...he just did a tip plasty

Spanish Eyes

Doesn’t seem to be such an issue in other countries , well at least they are not complaining too much. They don’t have as many cuter ethnic brethren as we do though.

I see the latest Member in Ireland has settled their case so that infrastructure can be built now In Dublin airport. Bet money changed hands just to get them out.

No court case so guess yourselves.

ILoveYourVibes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Doesn’t seem to be such an issue in other countries , well at least they are not complaining too much. They don’t have as many cuter ethnic brethren as we do though.

I see the latest Member in Ireland has settled their case so that infrastructure can be built now In Dublin airport. Bet money changed hands just to get them out.

No court case so guess yourselves.

I would say it IS in the states.

Spanish Eyes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I would say it IS in the states.

Do we really want to emulate the ambulance chasers over the pond, even though they don't have our ethinic chancers.But Afaik it is no foal no fee there.

Spanish Eyes

Oh this is just a circular discussion. Most of us know who are taking these dubious cases.

They have no shame at all.

But the solicitors and barristers are laughing all the way to the bank just the same, no matter the outcome. Someone will pay them.

Andrea B.

Yh

Geuze wrote: »

Here is my solution.

Legislate to cut the Book of Quantum figures by 90%.

All awards for whiplash are in vouchers for physio.

Medical support and therapy requirements for most whiplash claimants ends on payout day. Coincidence?
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/most-whiplash-patients-end-treatment-when-legal-action-finished-1.4041918

Eric Cartman

Allow PI awards to be used in means tested benefits, lower payouts for successive claims, lower payouts for claimants who do not work.

Most claims are coming from the welfare classes using them as a lottery. Somebody from dublin 22 is 55x more likely to be involved in a PI claim than somebody living in dublin 4.

Unprovable back and neck injuries and injuries stemming from personal stupidity (ala luas surfing or falling over drunk in a pub ) should be absolutely capped at vouched medical expenses

Stovepipe

The members of the "caravan club" that slowed down the building of the airport's new runway, allegedly, had been on that site at the back of the airport, for the last 30 years, so it wasn't a case that they suddenly turned up looking for a hand out. It was one or two families that held out to the end.

Stovepipe

Insurance companies also have this quaint little habit of settling without telling you. I found my car insurance rose by a rather large amount one year. When I queried it, I was told that "the case had been settled". What case? sez I. I had had a very minor tip with another car a couple of years before and the damage to his car was a chip of paint off the bumper. We had exchanged details and gone our seperate ways. I never heard from him, but the insurance company took it upon themselves to offer him 1500 euros in final settlement, much to his delight. I know this because I found his number and rang him to ask about it. He was quite happy because he had not claimed, had no intention of claiming and the phone call from them had come as a complete surprise and he was up 1500 euros. He was still using the car, too. My car was damaged (engine shifted and rad burst) and they wrote it off, paid me 1500 without me even asking and didnt mention the other guy at all. In the end, aftre I complained, they reduced the increase by a couple of hundred euros but were quite unapologetic about sorting the other guy out without telling me.

Atlantic Dawn

Where fraud is proved the full costs should be recovered from the claimant. Additionally there should be a public record of each doctor and solicitor who has acted for personal injury cases and the income which each has received from it per year, this racket has to be shut down.