Would flashing high level brake light be legal in Ireland?

Andy From Sligo

would anyone know if a flashing high level red brake light (sometimes referred to as 3rd brake light) be lagal for use here in Ireland.

I know they are legal in the US and have seen youtube videos of them in action and they believe over there it has cut down on rear collisions because its more noticeable if the brake light flashes.

This is the electrical gubbings I have found on the UK ebay site to put in line of the wiring of the high level brake light wires:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vehicle-Car-GS-100A-LED-Brake-Stop-Light-Strobe-Flash-Module-Controller-Box-C-UI/264460307080?hash=item3d93100a88:g:SboAAOSw84Zb97aP

kirving

As far as I know, all cars from the past 10 years are so should have this, required by EU law possibly.

If you brake hard enough on at high speed the rear brake lights will flash.

Once you go below a speed threshold, only the indicators flash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEUGq6yhU9s

I've seen those aftermarket flashers in the US. They get your attention, the first time, and are incredibly annoying after that

Especially since you can't feather the clutch on an Auto and so the brakes are constantly used in traffic.

wonski

I think the op means constant flashing regardless of speed.

I have a feeling this would fail nct.

Same if your indicators would light up when braking, transit style

If all cars had flashing stop lights it would lost all the sense of emergency.

Andy From Sligo

wonski wrote: »

I think the op means constant flashing regardless of speed.

I have a feeling this would fail nct.

Same if your indicators would light up when braking, transit style

If all cars had flashing stop lights it would lost all the sense of emergency.

indeed - that is what I was wondering, A flashing 3rd / high level brake light flashing at any speed when footbrake is applied even if stopped /vehicle stationary - say like if in a jam so someone dont come speeding up behind and rear ending, noticing a flashing high level brake light as opposed to a static one

Spook_ie

Kevin Irving wrote: »

As far as I know, all cars from the past 10 years are so should have this, required by EU law possibly.

If you brake hard enough on at high speed the rear brake lights will flash.

Once you go below a speed threshold, only the indicators flash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEUGq6yhU9s

I've seen those aftermarket flashers in the US. They get your attention, the first time, and are incredibly annoying after that

Especially since you can't feather the clutch on an Auto and so the brakes are constantly used in traffic.

So what indication do you give that you're slowing or stopping?

endacl

Spook_ie wrote: »

So what indication do you give that you're slowing or stopping?

He could always hold a flashing light in his hand!

kirving

wonski wrote: »

I think the op means constant flashing regardless of speed.

I think he means that too, but according to the advert, it does light up constantly after numerous flashes.

Advert wrote:

The flashing pattern is strobe 3 times, then flash 3 times and then constantly lighting up

wonski wrote: »

If all cars had flashing stop lights it would lost all the sense of emergency.

Exactly. I find they soon just annoy you because these aren't related to braking intensity.

As an aside, my current car will limit the frequency at which the brake lights flash, even if I repeatedly hit the pedal, about once per second maximum which I guess prevents strobing and annoyance behind.

The J Stands for Jay

Andy, have you ever been rear ended? Does anyone have stats on that type of accident? I'm guessing that there's probably 2 types of rear ending, emergency stops and idiots driving into stopped traffic at relatively low speed. I can't see the idiots being stopped by this strobe, and most cars already have some flashing light system for heavy breaking (either automatic hazards or the brake lights flash/strobe).

I'm not sure your AliExpress piece of kit is needed.

zilog_jones

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I know they are legal in the US and have seen youtube videos of them in action...

Just because you see them flashing in a video does not mean the lights are flashing in a way that is perceivable to humans.

LED lighting often uses PWM (pulse width modulation) in order to emit the desired brightness. This is usually at frequencies imperceivable to the naked eye, but can easily be picked up by a video camera depending on the shutter speed used and other factors.

kirving

zilog_jones wrote: »

Just because you see them flashing in a video does not mean the lights are flashing in a way that is perceivable to humans.

LED lighting often uses PWM (pulse width modulation) in order to emit the desired brightness. This is usually at frequencies imperceivable to the naked eye, but can easily be picked up by a video camera depending on the shutter speed used and other factors.

PWM to control apparent brightness to humans operates at much higher frequencies than these.

These have a vary apparent strobe that is visible, probably below 5 hertz, and isn't an effect just seen on video.

colm_mcm

This is a bit like those golf balls on the end of your aerial that help you find your car. Every car should have one

Andy From Sligo

Thanks all for your input which I have read through and can see where you are coming from so after reading them I will more than likely abandon the project then and leave as is.

but BTW if anyone is interested here is the youtube vid that got me thinking about it all in the first place:

ohnonotgmail

McGaggs wrote: »

Andy, have you ever been rear ended? Does anyone have stats on that type of accident? I'm guessing that there's probably 2 types of rear ending, emergency stops and idiots driving into stopped traffic at relatively low speed. I can't see the idiots being stopped by this strobe, and most cars already have some flashing light system for heavy breaking (either automatic hazards or the brake lights flash/strobe).

I'm not sure your AliExpress piece of kit is needed.

there is also a third type where idiots drive at high speed into traffic stopped at a red light because they are not paying attention. this bit of kit probably wouldn't help there either.

GM228

To answer the OPs question a flashing brake light is not legal in Ireland (with the exception of those so designed for emergency braking).

biko

If I have to sit in gridlock behind a car with constant flashing brake light, there will be words.

Spook_ie

biko wrote: »

If I have to sit in gridlock behind a car with constant flashing brake light, there will be words.

It doesn't flash constantly it pulses 4 times and then goes solid.

Andy From Sligo

here is the specs of the one off ebay - strobe 3 times , flash 3 times, then constantly light. i dare say if you were a bit handy with electronics and a soldering iron you could just crack open the case of it and convert it to just flash 3 times and then steady.



in any case, what I tend to do in gridlock traffic any way is take my foot off the brake and put the handbrake on anyway if i am stuck for an amount of time. I thought everyone did . maybe not people with automatic transmission cars but i havent driven an auto car for over 30 years so i dunno what you are supposed to do then

wonski

Spook_ie wrote: »

It doesn't flash constantly it pulses 4 times and then goes solid.

Strobe 3 times, flash three times then solid.

In a heavy traffic behind it you could have quiet a lot of that. It is a gimmick that is not related to speed or anything, just you pressing the brake which means it will be a strobo and flashing constantly in slowly moving traffic. Every time you depress the sequence starts again.

Not a chance I would even consider it.

Andy From Sligo

wonski wrote: »

Strobe 3 times, flash three times then solid.

In a heavy traffic behind it you could have quiet a lot of that. It is a gimmick that is not related to speed or anything, just you pressing the brake which means it will be a strobo and flashing constantly in slowly moving traffic. Every time you depress the sequence starts again.

Not a chance I would even consider it.

What if I pump the brake pedal continuously 3 times and make *all* the rear brake lights flash? .. will it be illegal then?

just messing, but I still kind of think a pulsating high brake level light will be more noticeable that a static one to some people. Not in every situation granted .

does anyone do what I do if I am stuck at road works and i see a car speeding up behind me I put on me hazards flashers to make them notice .. I have seen others do it as well.

I guess somewhere along the way someone must have decided to make the 4 amber hazard warning lights flash to warn others better , otherwise they would have just designed it so all 4 amber hazard indicators stayed on static

SBPhoto

If your the last car stuck at roadworks you should have your flashers on and not waiting till you see a fast approaching car

Andy From Sligo

SBPhoto wrote: »

If your the last car stuck at roadworks you should have your flashers on and not waiting till you see a fast approaching car

ya i do that too

mikeecho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWjD7Zrb6Yk

_Kaiser_

SBPhoto wrote: »

If your the last car stuck at roadworks you should have your flashers on and not waiting till you see a fast approaching car

Roadworks or indeed any sort of unexpected significant slow down or stoppage on especially motorways

i57dwun4yb1pt8

there is a mobile tyre van going around wexford / new line with a flashing red roof light ,
its the most f*cking annoying thing on the road to be behind

i57dwun4yb1pt8

also

https://www.dumpert.nl/item/7770235_af69ec60

colm_mcm

DaDumTish wrote: »

there is a mobile tyre van going around wexford / new line with a flashing red roof light ,
its the most f*cking annoying thing on the road to be behind

Report them, it’s illegal and dangerous.

kirving

As annoying as some bike lights can be, I'd much prefer to see an annoying light than a shadow in the night.

colm_mcm

Kevin Irving wrote: »

As annoying as some bike lights can be, I'd much prefer to see an annoying light than a shadow in the night.

I don’t think anyone would disagree with you.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Report them, it’s illegal and dangerous.

As far as I know, it's actually not illegal to have rear-facing red lights flashing (they must be rear-facing, though).

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

As far as I know, it's actually not illegal to have rear-facing red lights flashing (they must be rear-facing, though).

I have to say as time goes on i am finding it harder to think why a red flashing high level brake light would be illegal when legally I could 'pump' if i wanted to the footbrake and all red rear tail lights would flash on and of and still be legal.

i havent read yet or no-one has supplied anything concrete as to why it would be illegal to have a flashing rear high level red light when footbrake is applied , flash 3 times and then go steady on - not dis-crediting other peoples replies but simply saying 'it would be annoying' doesnt really answer if it would be legal or not.

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I have to say as time goes on i am finding it harder to think why a red flashing high level brake light would be illegal when legally I could 'pump' if i wanted to the footbrake and all red rear tail lights would flash on and of and still be legal.

i havent read yet or no-one has supplied anything concrete as to why it would be illegal to have a flashing rear high level red light when footbrake is applied , flash 3 times and then go steady on - not dis-crediting other peoples replies but simply saying 'it would be annoying' doesnt really answer if it would be legal or not.

I haven't really read the whole thread, but it's not illegal to the best of my knowledge.

Hence Garda cars etc. Having rear flashing red lights.

Unsure if it may be seen as an NCT fail, as you're tampering with lights that get tested, but as far as I'm aware, once they actually turn on once you press the brake pedal, they'll pass the test.


That said, despite its legal status, it legitimately would be very annoying.

Mind you, considering the compensation claims out there, you'd think most people would WANT to be rear-ended, and not be trying too hard to avoid it. Haha.

Dravokivich

Deleted User wrote: »

I haven't really read the whole thread, but it's not illegal to the best of my knowledge.

I can't recall where I had seen it, but other than emergency vehicles, or slow vehicles with flashing amber lights, the only road user permitted to have constant flashing lights is a cyclist.

FishOnABike

There is the possibility that flashing brake lights might cause the person behind to think someone was feathering the brakes rather than applying them solidly.

If you're braking solid a solid red brake light is more intuitive. It's also almost universal. The slight wtf moment to figure out some other brake light display could be counterproductive.

grogi

FishOnABike wrote: »

There is the possibility that flashing brake lights might cause the person behind to think someone was feathering the brakes rather than applying them solidly.

If you're braking solid a solid red brake light is more intuitive. It's also almost universal. The slight wtf moment to figure out some other brake light display could be counterproductive.

If the light is on for 90% of time (exp. on for 0.23 sec, off for 0.02 sec), there would be absolutely no additional confusion.

What's more, it is legal. The key document here is E/ECE/324 E/ECE/TRANS/505, Addendum 47, Regulation No. 48 (revision 9), point 6.23.

mikeecho

Dravokivich wrote: »

I can't recall where I had seen it, but other than emergency vehicles, or slow vehicles with flashing amber lights, the only road user permitted to have constant flashing lights is a cyclist.

A cyclist is required to have a steady light.
If a cyclist has a flashing light, it is in addition to the steady light.

lawred2

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

here is the specs of the one off ebay - strobe 3 times , flash 3 times, then constantly light. i dare say if you were a bit handy with electronics and a soldering iron you could just crack open the case of it and convert it to just flash 3 times and then steady.



in any case, what I tend to do in gridlock traffic any way is take my foot off the brake and put the handbrake on anyway if i am stuck for an amount of time. I thought everyone did . maybe not people with automatic transmission cars but i havent driven an auto car for over 30 years so i dunno what you are supposed to do then

and what's the difference between strobe and flash?

Marlow

DaDumTish wrote: »

also

https://www.dumpert.nl/item/7770235_af69ec60

Dravokivich wrote: »

I can't recall where I had seen it, but other than emergency vehicles, or slow vehicles with flashing amber lights, the only road user permitted to have constant flashing lights is a cyclist.

Erhh ... no .. those flashing lights, that cyclists use are illegal for that purpose ... EU wide. Solid light front and back. Flashing is not allowed ...

Those flashing lights is another reason, why cyclist are hated so much. Their ignorance.

/M

lawred2

Marlow wrote: »

Erhh ... no .. those flashing lights, that cyclists use are illegal for that purpose ... EU wide. Solid light front and back. Flashing is not allowed ...

Those flashing lights is another reason, why cyclist are hated so much. Their ignorance.

/M

by you?

Dravokivich

Marlow wrote: »

Erhh ... no .. those flashing lights, that cyclists use are illegal for that purpose ... EU wide. Solid light front and back. Flashing is not allowed ...

Those flashing lights is another reason, why cyclist are hated so much. Their ignorance.

/M

A small steady light does not give a reference for distance. A flashing light does.

kirving

Dravokivich wrote: »

A small steady light does not give a reference for distance. A flashing light does.

I don't think that's necessarily true, although I would still favour flashing over solid.

A flashing light will grab attention more quickly among steady car lights, and also because an LED can be driven to strobe at a higher intensity than it could maintain if solid. Heat dissipation is an issue with small LED's, as is battery life.

A light that is at 100% output for 20% of the time, at the right frequency, will appear more powerful than a light at 20% output for 100% of the time, despite both using the same amount of energy over a given time.

The same idea, but in the 100's of Hertz range is used in TV's and phone screens to make them appear as bright, but use less power.

Marlow

Kevin Irving wrote: »

A flashing light will grab attention more quickly among steady car lights

And THAT is exactly the problem. Everyone tries to grab more attention.

Cyclists driving around with flashing lights.

Van drivers using orange flashing beacons, when there is no need for them (they should only be used, when stationary, to indicate, that work force is on the road).

And I could go on.

Trying to grab the attention by doing something different takes focus from overall attention to traffic and creates dangers. Sensory overload is the result of this.

When overused, like road works signage, when no roadworks are active, it leads to people ignoring them entirely eventually. Which is counter productive.

If everyone uses steady lights, the driver can differentiate between the elements in traffic and make his own educated estimate, what the correct approach is. The way it should be. Flashing is for indication, hazards and warnings. End off.

/M

Marlow

lawred2 wrote: »

by you?

I have no problem with cyclists, as long as they adhere to traffic rules like anyone else.

What I do see .. on a daily base in traffic is:
- flashing lights (not legal)
- cyclists cyling against traffic on the wrong side of the road
- cyclists ignoring traffic lights
- cyclists on motorways .. where they are not allowed to be.

Just to give some examples .. and those are not the exception. It would not be a problem, if they were.

/M

Andy From Sligo

Dravokivich wrote: »

I can't recall where I had seen it, but other than emergency vehicles, or slow vehicles with flashing amber lights, the only road user permitted to have constant flashing lights is a cyclist.

shame you cannot recall or have a link

Andy From Sligo

FishOnABike wrote: »

There is the possibility that flashing brake lights might cause the person behind to think someone was feathering the brakes rather than applying them solidly.

If you're braking solid a solid red brake light is more intuitive. It's also almost universal. The slight wtf moment to figure out some other brake light display could be counterproductive.

The only light that would flash is the high level brake light. above the rear window and even after that (I think 3 flashes it would become static). - if a person's reactions that you cannot realise that the lower proper brake lights are static then maybe that person should not even be on the road.

Andy From Sligo

grogi wrote: »

If the light is on for 90% of time (exp. on for 0.23 sec, off for 0.02 sec), there would be absolutely no additional confusion.

What's more, it is legal. The key document here is E/ECE/324 E/ECE/TRANS/505, Addendum 47, Regulation No. 48 (revision 9), point 6.23.

thanks I will have a read

Andy From Sligo

lawred2 wrote: »

and what's the difference between strobe and flash?

I think strobe is really fast flashing, like flickering. And Flash is like 'on/off'
(on 1sec off 1sec)

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

Erhh ... no .. those flashing lights, that cyclists use are illegal for that purpose ... EU wide. Solid light front and back. Flashing is not allowed ...

Those flashing lights is another reason, why cyclist are hated so much. Their ignorance.

/M

its when cyclist have no lights whatsoever that I hate .. I have no problem with flashing lights on the rear of their bike.

We have some eejits going round on those scooters now (the electric ones you stand on) , and on the road after dark and no lights - pure madness

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

its when cyclist have no lights whatsoever that I hate .. I have no problem with flashing lights on the rear of their bike.

We have some eejits going round on those scooters now (the electric ones you stand on) , and on the road after dark and no lights - pure madness

In other countries ... if stopped by the police .. that will impact on your driving license .. or your future driving license. In the form of a ban, penalty points and fines.

So will flashing lights on bicycles, driving on the wrong side of the road against traffic and driving a bike while drunk.

Unfortunately there is no real enforcement here. Too much paperwork .. lets just focus on speeding and cars that have no tax.

/M

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

And THAT is exactly the problem. Everyone tries to grab more attention.

Cyclists driving around with flashing lights.

Van drivers using orange flashing beacons, when there is no need for them (they should only be used, when stationary, to indicate, that work force is on the road).

And I could go on.

Trying to grab the attention by doing something different takes focus from overall attention to traffic and creates dangers. Sensory overload is the result of this.

When overused, like road works signage, when no roadworks are active, it leads to people ignoring them entirely eventually. Which is counter productive.

If everyone uses steady lights, the driver can differentiate between the elements in traffic and make his own educated estimate, what the correct approach is. The way it should be. Flashing is for indication, hazards and warnings. End off.

/M

if a flashing high level bake light is not a warning / pre-warning / more noticeable warning to someone drivinga distance away from you that you have stopped then I dont know what is - especiall in fog or in a brighter day where otherwise you might not know if the brake lights were on or off, I reckon they would be much more noticeable flashing than static !

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

if a flashing high level bake light is not a warning / pre-warning / more noticeable warning to someone drivinga distance away from you that you have stopped then I dont know what is - especiall in fog or in a brighter day where otherwise you might not know if the brake lights were on or off, I reckon they would be much more noticeable flashing than static !

Correct. But only to be applied at harsh braking. Not every braking situation warrants it. Otherwise you again have sensory overload, which leads to ignorance.

Everything has to be taken with moderation and not every change is always for the good.

For example, while the third brake light was a real good thing to introduce, it has put older vehicles and vehicles towing trailers at bigger risks, because some drivers now have the tendency to overlook brake lights, if they do not see the third one.

My camping trailer nearly got rear ended by somebody this summer, because he did not pay attention to me braking. He literally had to swerve into the turning lane and ended up half way past the trailer ... all of that in a 50 zone.

And yes .. all my lights were fully functional.

Basically some drivers get so reliant on these new signals, that they can not cope in traffic anymore, when they don't have them.

/M

GM228

grogi wrote: »

If the light is on for 90% of time (exp. on for 0.23 sec, off for 0.02 sec), there would be absolutely no additional confusion.

What's more, it is legal. The key document here is E/ECE/324 E/ECE/TRANS/505, Addendum 47, Regulation No. 48 (revision 9), point 6.23.

Just to be clear, that applies to emergency braking only, otherwise a flashing light is not legal on any vehicle (with the exception of cyclists and emergency vehicle, road work vehicles etc).

mikeecho wrote: »

A cyclist is required to have a steady light.
If a cyclist has a flashing light, it is in addition to the steady light.

Marlow wrote: »

Erhh ... no .. those flashing lights, that cyclists use are illegal for that purpose ... EU wide. Solid light front and back. Flashing is not allowed ...

Those flashing lights is another reason, why cyclist are hated so much. Their ignorance.

Cyclists can have either a steady lit light or a flashing light, so long as it flashes not less than 60 times in each minutute it is not illegal.

Road traffic law is my speciality and I'll dig out the relevant provisions later for those who want them.