Going to court for money owed

pms7

Anyone have any experience of taking someone to court for money owed? Sold cows in April, wrong surname on draft which I only noticed when at the bank, so had to return it. His bank had to send it to Dublin. Said didn't have money until that came back to him. Made a partial payment in July, so owed for half now. Promised full payment few weeks back which didn't happen, so lost faith in him after that, plus he wont answer phone, texts back, eventually. Sent text giving him another week before going legal route, no response..

Never wrestle with pigs

pms7 wrote: »

Anyone have any experience of taking someone to court for money owed? Sold cows in April, wrong surname on draft which I only noticed when at the bank, so had to return it. His bank had to send it to Dublin. Said didn't have money until that came back to him. Made a partial payment in July, so owed for half now. Promised full payment few weeks back which didn't happen, so lost faith in him after that, plus he wont answer phone, texts back, eventually. Sent text giving him another week before going legal route, no response..

Better off calling over with a few friends.

Timmaay

Small claims maybe?

Car99

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Better off calling over with a few friends.

Call over with a trailer and collect your goods . If not paid for theyre still yours.

road_high

pms7 wrote: »

Anyone have any experience of taking someone to court for money owed? Sold cows in April, wrong surname on draft which I only noticed when at the bank, so had to return it. His bank had to send it to Dublin. Said didn't have money until that came back to him. Made a partial payment in July, so owed for half now. Promised full payment few weeks back which didn't happen, so lost faith in him after that, plus he wont answer phone, texts back, eventually. Sent text giving him another week before going legal route, no response..

I’d say the “wrong” name was accidentally on purpose

patsy_mccabe

road_high wrote: »

I’d say the “wrong” name was accidentally on purpose

No flies on you.

realdanbreen

pms7 wrote: »

Anyone have any experience of taking someone to court for money owed? Sold cows in April, wrong surname on draft which I only noticed when at the bank, so had to return it. His bank had to send it to Dublin. Said didn't have money until that came back to him. Made a partial payment in July, so owed for half now. Promised full payment few weeks back which didn't happen, so lost faith in him after that, plus he wont answer phone, texts back, eventually. Sent text giving him another week before going legal route, no response..

How much are we talking about?

whelan2

Best time to look for money is milk cheque time or single farm payment time.

Mortelaro

road_high wrote: »

I’d say the “wrong” name was accidentally on purpose

It was a draft though,so they had to have parted with the money to have the draft issued
Inquiries I'd make first are
Check with bank as to where the funds behind the draft have gone
If they are stuck in some kind of bank escrow,then the buyer would be out of pocket and might genuinely be fuddled as to what to do

Get confirmation first where the money for the draft is
If it's not been refunded to the buyer,you need to get them into the bank to sign paperwork to get it to you
If it has been refunded to them,set a deadline,then go legal
Call to see them in either case

pms7

realdanbreen wrote: »

How much are we talking about?

€3500

older by the day

Try a solicitors letter, and see, but court may take a lot of the 3500. I know of a builder who was a owed money and went over to the man's yard and filled it with welder s and gear, he returned them when he got his money. But I would not be bringing trouble like that on yourself and your family.

davidk1394

Court route can be very costly and cumbersome, by the time judgement is got and money collected the good is gone out of it. Do a background check on the person, see what their like and call up to the place. Maybe have a cattle box nearby

Stationmaster

If it's a draft payment though hasn't he already paid for? Was there any reason why they couldn't just reissue the draft with the correct name on it? Otherwise, I presume his bank refunded him the money from the original draft.

_Brian

Would small claims court work and keep your costs to a minimum.

enricoh

I know a lad who was owed 10k by a lad who out of the blue started stinging everyone.
Was getting no joy at all so brought him to court, sheriff etc. Started repayments n has stopped again so back to court.
It has cost the guts of 2 grand so far and yer man has repaid 2 grand. I admire him for bringing him to court n being dogged. Most lads have let him away with it.

pms7

_Brian wrote: »

Would small claims court work and keep your costs to a minimum.

Small claims is capped at 2000 I think.
The incorrect draft couldn't be refunded immediately, money laundering rules.
It came back but bank kept it to go towards loan repayments.
He has just started milking this year, struggling with money, made a partial payment 2 months ago so I am inclined to believe him. Not sure if court can get it off him if he doesn't have it. Said have it next milk cheque, gave him one last chance, court then..
Lesson learned, in future money in my account by transfer or wait for cheque to clear before let cattle go. I did keep cards and didn't do movement thinking that would be some good, but isn't really.

newholland mad

I heard somewhere before maybe here that the department are helpful in such matters might be worth a try

older by the day

pms7 wrote: »

_Brian wrote: »

Lesson learned, in future money in my account by transfer or wait for cheque to clear before let cattle go. I did keep cards and didn't do movement thinking that would be some good, but isn't really.

There's a thing down here called a Mart. You get robbed the odd time but you don't have to chase the money

Bellview

newholland mad wrote: »

I heard somewhere before maybe here that the department are helpful in such matters might be worth a try

Yes there was a case in kerry in last few years where a feed merchant got to keep single farm payments for a few years.. but the value of debt was pretty large .. I’m sure there are other similar cases out there as well

Del2005

Mortelaro wrote: »

It was a draft though,so they had to have parted with the money to have the draft issued
Inquiries I'd make first are
Check with bank as to where the funds behind the draft have gone
If they are stuck in some kind of bank escrow,then the buyer would be out of pocket and might genuinely be fuddled as to what to do

Get confirmation first where the money for the draft is
If it's not been refunded to the buyer,you need to get them into the bank to sign paperwork to get it to you
If it has been refunded to them,set a deadline,then go legal
Call to see them in either case

Even before GDPR you wouldn't have got that information from a bank. The only thing a bank will do with a draft is verify that it's legit, they won't provide any other information.

pms7 wrote: »

Small claims is capped at 2000 I think.
The incorrect draft couldn't be refunded immediately, money laundering rules.
It came back but bank kept it to go towards loan repayments.
He has just started milking this year, struggling with money, made a partial payment 2 months ago so I am inclined to believe him. Not sure if court can get it off him if he doesn't have it. Said have it next milk cheque, gave him one last chance, court then..
Lesson learned, in future money in my account by transfer or wait for cheque to clear before let cattle go. I did keep cards and didn't do movement thinking that would be some good, but isn't really.

By aware that the money in your account doesn't mean the cheque has cleared. Your bank will credit your account a few days after you lodge the cheque but that's not the money from the cheque, they only get that money when the physical cheque is returned to the issuing bank and they release the funds to you. If there's no funds in the account the cheque was drawn from your bank will take it's money back from your account. It can take a few weeks for some cheques to be clear. Plenty of people use this method to buy stuff with money they don't have, it's an old scam

Try if at all possible to avoid going to court. Our justice system makes it nearly impossible to get debts repaid, or any satisfaction, if the debtor doesn't want to pay.

whelan2

How about an agreement of 500 per month for the next 7 months by direct debit

dar31

The animals in your herd profile on cmms won't affect you nitrates stocking rates ??

whelan2

dar31 wrote: »

The animals in your herd profile on cmms won't affect you nitrates stocking rates ??

I assume the movement was done late rather than not at all. Would be messy otherwise with testing etc

foundation10

whelan2 wrote: »

How about an agreement of 500 per month for the next 7 months by direct debit

This is your best route, I would arrange to meet him and try to get him to agree to an arrangement, I know what the courts are like it, will end up costing you more financially and emotionally, at the end of the day the best way is to try and get something sorted between yourselves unless he is a complete gangster and from reading your postings there is some willingness there to work on.

Keepgrowing

Happened to us a few years ago, arrived in a lorry and collected cattle, simple as that. Sorted the movement through official channels with Dvo.

1373

Take him to court and listen to his solicitor talk about his client depression and suicidal
thoughts and everyone will be advised to back off and he’ll walk out laughing his head off at you . That is what that sort do

Markcheese

Are the cattle still on his farm.? Can you get them back..
Ór get him to put up something as security.. Tractor, machinery something that you can take away (and he'll want back).. It'd have to be worth a lot more than the outstanding debt

patsy_mccabe

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Happened to us a few years ago, arrived in a lorry and collected cattle, simple as that. Sorted the movement through official channels with Dvo.

Could you explain how this worked tru official channels? Would he not have to give permission to release the cattle from his herd.

older by the day

whelan2 wrote: »

How about an agreement of 500 per month for the next 7 months by direct debit

It's not 3.5 million, it's easy to cut off a direct debit. Looking at the answers here I think, you need to suss out the type he is, ask around

Mortelaro

Del2005 wrote: »

Even before GDPR you wouldn't have got that information from a bank. The only thing a bank will do with a draft is verify that it's legit, they won't provide any other information.

They will provide it to the buyer,which the seller can insist upon
Failing getting that it’s court and a decree with costs

By aware that the money in your account doesn't mean the cheque has cleared. Your bank will credit your account a few days after you lodge the cheque but that's not the money from the cheque, they only get that money when the physical cheque is returned to the issuing bank and they release the funds to you. If there's no funds in the account the cheque was drawn from your bank will take it's money back from your account. It can take a few weeks for some cheques to be clear. Plenty of people use this method to buy stuff with money they don't have, it's an old scam

A draft cannot bounce though,it’s different,unless it’s forged

Try if at all possible to avoid going to court. Our justice system makes it nearly impossible to get debts repaid, or any satisfaction, if the debtor doesn't want to pay.

I’d agree,talking and an agreement is best
Trust would be gone if they weren’t prepared to provide proof from the bank that the draft funds weren’t returned or the change of name process started
A decree with costs registered against the land owners property n the absence of an agreement iis a serious sanction threat against the buyer,one they’d want to avoid

cj maxx

whelan2 wrote: »

Best time to look for money is milk cheque time or single farm payment time.

Waiting on BPS payment to come in ?

Nekarsulm

cjmc wrote: »

Waiting on BPS payment to come in ?

Depending on whether he gets BPS, if your Solicitor gets a Court Order, it will compel the Dept to divert his payments until the debt. is cleared.
That covers all payments, BPS, sheep scheme, greening, Tams, the lot.

kk.man

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Depending on whether he gets BPS, if your Solicitor gets a Court Order, it will compel the Dept to divert his payments until the debt. is cleared.
That covers all payments, BPS, sheep scheme, greening, Tams, the lot.

A mart owner told me he was owed money from a cattle dealer and was getting no good of him.
Mart Owner informed cattle dealer he was going to register a judgement against him and his BPS. Dealer promptly paid up.
In this case the mart owner would have gotten what was owed and the Dealer would have gotten a bad name for Credit with Banks etc.

Bass Reeves

I was talking to a contractor last week He has a few big dairy customers. One in particular has paid nothing this year so far. He is owed for first and second cut as well a a small third cut. As well as that he spreads all of this customers slurry. He is also owed for some reseeding. The customer milks over 150 cows. He expanded a lot since the mid noughties. Now the peculiar thing is the accountant said to me that dairy farmers in particular made serious money last year and most have huge tax issue's. Is the present reduction in milk price effecting them that much.

Mortelaro

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was talking to a contractor last week He has a few big dairy customers. One in particular has paid nothing this year so far. He is owed for first and second cut as well a a small third cut. As well as that he spreads all of this customers slurry. He is also owed for some reseeding. The customer milks over 150 cows. He expanded a lot since the mid noughties. Now the peculiar thing is the accountant said to me that dairy farmers in particular made serious money last year and most have huge tax issue's. Is the present reduction in milk price effecting them that much.

Most Dairy farmers made huge money last year in a 3 month drought when a lot of them had to buy in fodder for use in summer months when no grass? Following on from a harsh February and march?
I doubt it

Bass Reeves

Mortelaro wrote: »

Most Dairy farmers made huge money last year in a 3 month drought when a lot of them had to buy in fodder for use in summer months when no grass? Following on from a harsh February and march?
I doubt it

Well I can only post what the accountant said to me.

Nekarsulm

kk.man wrote: »

A mart owner told me he was owed money from a cattle dealer and was getting no good of him.
Mart Owner informed cattle dealer he was going to register a judgement against him and his BPS. Dealer promptly paid up.
In this case the mart owner would have gotten what was owed and the Dealer would have gotten a bad name for Credit with Banks etc.

Yeah, some dealers have substantial BPS , depending on what they were at 25 years ago.
You would be better pay up a few thousand to a creditor, no matter how you gathered it up, than have fifty thousand BPS in limbo.

jaymla627

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was talking to a contractor last week He has a few big dairy customers. One in particular has paid nothing this year so far. He is owed for first and second cut as well a a small third cut. As well as that he spreads all of this customers slurry. He is also owed for some reseeding. The customer milks over 150 cows. He expanded a lot since the mid noughties. Now the peculiar thing is the accountant said to me that dairy farmers in particular made serious money last year and most have huge tax issue's. Is the present reduction in milk price effecting them that much.

You could easily have a 30k tax bill from last year if you went up say 120 cows to 150 cows on account of stock values increasing but have 80k plus owed in merchant credit/overdrafts etc, at years closing and not a penny to your name, the stock relief been done away it has screwed allot of lads expanding big numbers wise as the 75k limit means bringing in a family member as a partnership isn't enough now

whelan2

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was talking to a contractor last week He has a few big dairy customers. One in particular has paid nothing this year so far. He is owed for first and second cut as well a a small third cut. As well as that he spreads all of this customers slurry. He is also owed for some reseeding. The customer milks over 150 cows. He expanded a lot since the mid noughties. Now the peculiar thing is the accountant said to me that dairy farmers in particular made serious money last year and most have huge tax issue's. Is the present reduction in milk price effecting them that much.

I wonder why do contractors continue to do work for the likes of these lads

Say my name

whelan2 wrote: »

I wonder why do contractors continue to do work for the likes of these lads

Volume of work, volume of money or potential money owed.

The same fellas take a machine out on trial, bale 200 bales with a machine and then hand it back to the machinery dealer saying they don't like it and move on to the next dealer. The dealer's are eager to give the machine out because they know they have the money from their farm size and occasionally they will buy such a machine. These fellas are all across the board in agriculture.

When you're big you can get away with murder.

Bass Reeves

jaymla627 wrote: »

You could easily have a 30k tax bill from last year if you went up say 120 cows to 150 cows on account of stock values increasing but have 80k plus owed in merchant credit/overdrafts etc, at years closing and not a penny to your name, the stock relief been done away it has screwed allot of lads expanding big numbers wise as the 75k limit means bringing in a family member as a partnership isn't enough now

To have a tax bill of 30K(inc PRsi and USC) he want to be showing an income of 85K before showing any depreciation of building and machinery. His net income would be over 55K and that is treated as a single person If his spouse was working on the farm He be up over 100K in income before he have a tax bill again that size before allowing for an depreciation. Income cam be shown to any childern working on the farm as well. If he cannot pay his bills he over expanded. Too many excuses for these sort of lads.

whelan2 wrote: »

I wonder why do contractors continue to do work for the likes of these lads

It a bit like a bank if you own a contractor 5-19K its your problem if you oqn them 30-50K+ its theirs. It can build up very fast a lad that normally pays on time and suddenly you have second cut done and no money arriving

Mortelaro

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Well I can only post what the accountant said to me.

It doesn't make sense though, certainly here in the southeast where those that had money had it all eaten up (literally) and those that didn't have huge merchant debt and in some cases have been paying off last years glanbias extended credit too

jaymla627

whelan2 wrote: »

I wonder why do contractors continue to do work for the likes of these lads

Know a contractor here that's owed 50k from a beef finisher between 18's and this years silage bill, hasn't a hope of getting it

pms7

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Depending on whether he gets BPS, if your Solicitor gets a Court Order, it will compel the Dept to divert his payments until the debt. is cleared.
That covers all payments, BPS, sheep scheme, greening, Tams, the lot.

Interesting, didn't know that

jaymla627

Bass Reeves wrote: »

To have a tax bill of 30K(inc PRsi and USC) he want to be showing an income of 85K before showing any depreciation of building and machinery. His net income would be over 55K and that is treated as a single person If his spouse was working on the farm He be up over 100K in income before he have a tax bill again that size before allowing for an depreciation. Income cam be shown to any childern working on the farm as well. If he cannot pay his bills he over expanded. Too many excuses for these sort of lads.




It a bit like a bank if you own a contractor 5-19K its your problem if you oqn them 30-50K+ its theirs. It can build up very fast a lad that normally pays on time and suddenly you have second cut done and no money arriving

Had a 100% stock relief for 2018 as was in last year of it, if I hadn't been able to avail of it my tax bill would of went from 4k to 28k due to extra cows and in-calf heifers been carried

Ginger83

Sorry to hear of your trouble with a farmer. I am in the process of the legal route with a farmer. So up to 2k use small claims court, any higher use a solicitor.

If you have no luck you can have a judgement made against them and even do a bankruptcy petition.

Mooooo

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was talking to a contractor last week He has a few big dairy customers. One in particular has paid nothing this year so far. He is owed for first and second cut as well a a small third cut. As well as that he spreads all of this customers slurry. He is also owed for some reseeding. The customer milks over 150 cows. He expanded a lot since the mid noughties. Now the peculiar thing is the accountant said to me that dairy farmers in particular made serious money last year and most have huge tax issue's. Is the present reduction in milk price effecting them that much.

Two things did the contractor talk to the farmer or look for payment? And the accountants clientele may not have been as effected by last summer's drought or the previous years wet weather as much as others?
Have some contractors here get paid out the gate and another that comes Xmas week without fail, always has. Makes no odds once I know when they are coming, which would be the main thing. Have to chase other lads then for a bill

kk.man

pms7 wrote: »

Interesting, didn't know that

In this case his BP was c 100k.

enricoh

jaymla627 wrote: »

Know a contractor here that's owed 50k from a beef finisher between 18's and this years silage bill, hasn't a hope of getting it

That'd drive me round the bend, I'd end up shooting him for piece of mind! Why go back this year? Further down the hole now
A mate of mine put together a silage outfit and was inundated with work from the get go - happy days. The happiness didnt last, most of his customers were non payers that had been dropped by other contractors. Torture.

pms7

enricoh wrote: »

That'd drive me round the bend, I'd end up shooting him for piece of mind! Why go back this year? Further down the hole now
A mate of mine put together a silage outfit and was inundated with work from the get go - happy days. The happiness didnt last, most of his customers were non payers that had been dropped by other contractors. Torture.

Heard of a contractor who was owed for previous year and not being paid.
He mowed the first cut, then pulled out, farmer not happy to put it mildly as no other contractor would come in to pick it up, knowing full well the reason. He paid up..

jaymla627

enricoh wrote: »

That'd drive me round the bend, I'd end up shooting him for piece of mind! Why go back this year? Further down the hole now
A mate of mine put together a silage outfit and was inundated with work from the get go - happy days. The happiness didnt last, most of his customers were non payers that had been dropped by other contractors. Torture.

Their in their the past 20 years, their biggest customer and they probably thought he'd pony up the money but he's stone broke and has no sfp to draw down as he sold his entitlements years ago, they'll have to bring him to court eventually as financially they can't carry it much longer