Beef Producers Group

kk.man

I am not a member of any farm organisation.

I am looking at filling out the P. O. form and sending it to Athlone {link on agriland} . From what I can gather the Beef Plan are forming their own PO or am I mistaken?
I also take it you can only be a member of one PO?

What are ppls thoughts the best way to proceed?

Fine Day

I am gona hold off awhile before joining to see how it goes first. I know they have been approved by the department but can Creed and them be trusted. Time will tell. There should be a tribunal opened and go back as far as Haugheys time.

Water John

A discussion on Producers Groups is needed, thanks for starting the conversation. Well we have Lamb Producer Groups as a template.
I think it has to have a critical mass for each group. I presume a number around the country. People can try and figure out how many is optimum.
Producer Groups also for niche, HF, AA, Moiled.
More ideas?

wrangler

kk.man wrote: »

I am not a member of any farm organisation.

I am looking at filling out the P. O. form and sending it to Athlone {link on agriland} . From what I can gather the Beef Plan are forming their own PO or am I mistaken?
I also take it you can only be a member of one PO?

What are ppls thoughts the best way to proceed?

In our lamb group we say at the beginning of the year how many lambs we're committing to the group so in theory you could go to two groups

Grueller

Producer group for e & u weanlings for the Italian market.
Anything that may take cattle out of the country.

Water John

Good point Grueller, the live trade was always the saving of the industry for farmers. We even see it in the marts this week. Long term relationships with finishers in Spain and Italy and other countries.

Cavanjack

Grueller wrote: »

Producer group for e & u weanlings for the Italian market.
Anything that may take cattle out of the country.

If we could get rid of the Friesian bulls we might have a chance of making money with the u’s and e’s. Wonder what the cost is per head to transport a weanling to Italy. Would €100 cover it?

Cavanjack

Theheff wrote: »

I am gona hold off awhile before joining to see how it goes first. I know they have been approved by the department but can Creed and them be trusted. Time will tell. There should be a tribunal opened and go back as far as Haugheys time.

I can’t see how the factories are going to sit down and negotiate with the same lads that started the protests in the first place. Going to sit it out myself for a while.

wrangler

Cavanjack wrote: »

I can’t see how the factories are going to sit down and negotiate with the same lads that started the protests in the first place. Going to sit it out myself for a while.

You'd have a better chance dealing with your agent at the moment anyway.

Muckit

So when u are selling then you'd be contacting the producer group u are a member of?

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

Grueller wrote: »

Producer group for e & u weanlings for the Italian market.
Anything that may take cattle out of the country.

If we could get rid of the Friesian bulls we might have a chance of making money with the u’s and e’s. Wonder what the cost is per head to transport a weanling to Italy. Would €100 cover it?

U&E grade cattle are totally unsuitable for the UK market. Carcass weight to heavy and hard to get fat s ire on them sub 450dw.

Across my Friesians this year they averaged 335DW approx and FS 3=. Only one fell into FS2+.They consumed about 125kgs of ration per head over 12 months. The ones I traveled a bit with graded ok

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

I can’t see how the factories are going to sit down and negotiate with the same lads that started the protests in the first place. Going to sit it out myself for a while.

They will have to. Yes at present processor's can use the excuse of regular suppliers and the strike to not negotiate with them. But in 4+ months if they don't the CPCC and the government will be all over them As well it might attract the EU Competition Authority as this is backed by EU legislation. Not only that if producer groups can produce cattle to spec they will have to.price to similar size operations. For instance a producer group capable of supplying 1000cattle per week should be able to attain a price at or near a similar operation . There is no doubt it will take time to bed down but they will increase beef prices to farmers.

As well local factories will no longer know where the cattle are coming from so will find it harder to discriminate against local and smaller suppliers

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

They will have to. Yes at present processor's can use the excuse of regular suppliers and the strike to not negotiate with them. But in 4+ months if they don't the CPCC and the government will be all over them As well it might attract the EU Competition Authority as this is backed by EU legislation. Not only that if producer groups can produce cattle to spec they will have to.price to similar size operations. For instance a producer group capable of supplying 1000cattle per week should be able to attain a price at or near a similar operation . There is no doubt it will take time to bed down but they will increase beef prices to farmers.

As well local factories will no longer know where the cattle are coming from so will find it harder to discriminate against local and smaller suppliers

Why will they have to negotiate? If you're looking to sell me something, surely it's up to me whether I consider you or tell you f**k off without even listening to you?

Do you see lads committing to supplying certain numbers and spec animals weeks if not months in advance? Otherwise what has a group got to offer as they already have access to numbers

Water John

Correct, you don't ring up the PG and say I have X number of Y type cattle ready to send to a factory. This is all about forward planning both for the farmer and factory. That is what will yield the bonus.

Muckit

The majority of small farmers will have to sell into it.

It's telling now how fragile you are now when u are a small operator.

Bass Reeves

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Why will they have to negotiate? If you're looking to sell me something, surely it's up to me whether I consider you or tell you f**k off without even listening to you?

Do you see lads committing to supplying certain numbers and spec animals weeks if not months in advance? Otherwise what has a group got to offer as they already have access to numbers

Because it would be considered anti competitive. While the Irish competition Authority is generally useless a case like this is easy to investigate. You just go in and look at other similar sized contracts, pricing arrangements or even prices. Remembet the EU has legislated for this as well. If they decided to investigate they have the money to really put the boot in. We know already that the CCPC is looking more actively at the processor's at present. They and BB have been shown up as incompetent if they get an open door they be through it in a shot

Yes I can because pricing arrangements will become transparent. If I know the price will X in August bet X+30c in early June and vary between that in the period between I can target my cattle during that period.

For some lads welded to killing cattle at heavy weights in October/November it immaterial bit for a lot of lads earlier feeding and lighter carcasses may pay as well as heavy cattle in November

It the same for any period of the year.

I says

I’ll join it, it’s the right thing to do a steady supply of fit cattle will suit all.

Base price

Are there terms and conditions available yet, I've looked at the BP website but cannot see them. I read an article a few days ago (can't find it now) about the producers group and it stated that it was recommended that farmers make themselves familiar of the terms and conditions before signing up.

Base price

I've just came across an online article from Agriland on how farmers can apply to join the Beef Plan/Irish Beef Producers group.

It mentions that the applicant understands and abides with the rules. Unfortunately I cannot see where the rules or terms & conditions are published or even a link to them. Can anyone direct me or other potential applicants as to where the rules can be viewed.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/how-do-farmers-apply-for-the-new-irish-beef-producers-group/

wrangler

Base price wrote: »

I've just came across an online article from Agriland on how farmers can apply to join the Beef Plan/Irish Beef Producers group.

It mentions that the applicant understands and abides with the rules. Unfortunately I cannot see where the rules or terms & conditions are published or even a link to them. Can anyone direct me or other potential applicants as to where the rules can be viewed.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/how-do-farmers-apply-for-the-new-irish-beef-producers-group/

Maybe it's like the Masons, you have to be able to do the special handshake

K.G.

I wonder how long will it be in operation before you ve someone on here complaining about it-a week? !and and contending that they are colluding with the factories .best of luck to it but if its going to be a national body it ll be gone in 3 years.only way it ll hold together is if its more regional

Lime Tree Farm

https://cdn.agriland.ie/uploads/2019/09/charlesddd.pdf
The application form for farmers

confirm that I have read, understand and will abide by the Rules of ‘Irish Beef Producers' organisation as recognised Producer Organisation under S.I. No. 49 of 2016
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2016/si/49/made/en/pdf
.
Bit of confusion with SI 49 as it would appear that this is a Producers Group terms and conditions as opposed to a suplying farmer terms and conditions. Is the application form for a farmer supplying or for a person setting up their own producer group?

example of farmers conditons extracted from Angus Producers website
http://www.angusproducergroup.com/index.php/membership/

Buford T. Justice XIX

New group nearing the approval stage.

https://twitter.com/farmersjournal/status/1177547669880942592?s=19

Water John

Minister was on Local Radio (Cork) today. Indicated I think that some orgs were, not exactly licensed but approved bodies to aid the setting up of PGs, with 2 years and he named IFA as one of them, which we were aware of already. I presume that made it a bit more difficult for the BPM to set one up. It seems they would have had to get approval first. We all know IFA sat on this for 2 years.

He indicated he envisioned many PGs being set up all around the country. There is funding available to aid this.

Off hand this is the best docs I could find to give some idea.
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingsectors/horticulturebeekeeping/horticultureschemes/POSchemeTermsAndConditionsJune2806%202019.pdf

wrangler

Water John wrote: »

Minister was on Local Radio (Cork) today. Indicated I think that some orgs were, not exactly licensed but approved bodies to aid the setting up of PGs, with 2 years and he named IFA as one of them, which we were aware of already. I presume that made it a bit more difficult for the BPM to set one up. It seems they would have had to get approval first. We all know IFA sat on this for 2 years.

He indicated he envisioned many PGs being set up all around the country. There is funding available to aid this.

Off hand this is the best docs I could find to give some idea.
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingsectors/horticulturebeekeeping/horticultureschemes/POSchemeTermsAndConditionsJune2806%202019.pdf

IFA told farmers at meetings that they'd give help to anyone that'd want to start a Producer Group, Farmers that were too lazy to get off their backside that time will not be successful now. There was lots of facilitators named but again no uptake from farmers.
I'll go back to the National Roads Agreement when farmers needed advice and IFA hired extra staff, the same would've been done if farmers got their finger out and formed Producer Groups but it seems they'd rather whinge and do nothing

Lime Tree Farm

a bit of bedtime reading here.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmingsectors/beef/beefproducerorganisations/

Water John

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/second-beef-producer-group-in-the-pipeline/

From this it appears there could be 30 POs in the country. I think there may be an optimum size. Large enough to have numbers of cattle and clout. Small enough to maintain close contact with their members.

Lime Tree Farm

I would see it as a downside if a PG requested access to your ICBF account. So far I have only seen this as an AA PG membership requirement.

wrangler

Water John wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/second-beef-producer-group-in-the-pipeline/

From this it appears there could be 30 POs in the country. I think there may be an optimum size. Large enough to have numbers of cattle and clout. Small enough to maintain close contact with their members.

30 POs might be too many, most farmers with numbers would prefer to do their own deal and there's few fattening small numbers of cattle now

Buford T. Justice XIX

Lime Tree Farm wrote: »

a bit of bedtime reading here.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmingsectors/beef/beefproducerorganisations/

50 shades of BPO:pac:

Water John

It might actually flip and factories preferring to deal with POs. Regular supply of specified spec.

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

IFA told farmers at meetings that they'd give help to anyone that'd want to start a Producer Group, Farmers that were too lazy to get off their backside that time will not be successful now. There was lots of facilitators named but again no uptake from farmers.
I'll go back to the National Roads Agreement when farmers needed advice and IFA hired extra staff, the same would've been done if farmers got their finger out and formed Producer Groups but it seems they'd rather whinge and do nothing

IFA was dead set against present PG structure. It wanted that a there could be a few exclusive PG for a small number's of farmers. They also did not push for legislation at the start in 2015/2016.

Now we find out that certain organisations were approved bodies to form producers groups. I wonder what other organisations,ICMSA?? ICSA??.

From what the minister said it look like smaller groups of farmers would have found it impossible you need numbers in excess of 8-10K+ farmers to form a decent size organisation. The original proposed structure was 3-4 groups nationwide. These structures were never proposed for a few hundred farmers getting together. IFA is still whinging about the structure legislated for.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

IFA was dead set against present PG structure. It wanted that a there could be a few exclusive PG for a small number's of farmers. They also did not push for legislation at the start in 2015/2016.

Now we find out that certain organisations were approved bodies to form producers groups. I wonder what other organisations,ICMSA?? ICSA??.

From what the minister said it look like smaller groups of farmers would have found it impossible you need numbers in excess of 8-10K+ farmers to form a decent size organisation. The original proposed structure was 3-4 groups nationwide. These structures were never proposed for a few hundred farmers getting together. IFA is still whinging about the structure legislated for.

I can't see them being a success, processors are showing their power now, They're still our customers and able to tell farmers how high to jump.
A lot of farmers are well pissed off

Water John

I sort don't understand the diff between a sheep and a bullock?

wrangler

Water John wrote: »

I sort don't understand the diff between a sheep and a bullock?

will depots be allowed with cattle the same as sheep,That's one of the big advantages of PGs otherwise farmers with small numbers have to deal with the local factory
If the charge is €3/hd will factories collect the levies for them and how will that be different from the IFA levies that farmers whinge about.
As I said before Athenry mart used to assemble cattle for factories and it wasn't supported by farmers because ''most farmers like to sell their own cattle''
That's a quote from a former manager

longgonesilver

Is this the way things should be organised? A retailer with a corporate and moral policy.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/one-retailers-answer-to-the-bull-calf-crisis-in-the-uk/

No .mention of price.