Should some vaccinations be mandatory?

Wombatman

Minister for Health Simon Harris when asked if he would introduce mandatory vaccination for children and ban unvaccinated youngsters from schools, he said: "I do have a very open mind in relation to the issue of mandatory vaccines. I see this as something that is being raised in lots of other countries and Ireland needs to be part of that debate."

"It does not sit well with me that you would send your child to a creche without being vaccinated and knowing that not only are you putting their health at risk but other children’s health too."

"When it comes to schools, children have a constitutional right to education and there are rights that need to be balanced but there is also a public health issue."

TommyKnocker

No, IMHO. But there should be more done to educate people on the issue and debunk the anti vaxxer spiel. Also goverment's and the pharma industry need to be more transparent with the possible side effects of the vaccines. There are stories of apparently healthy children having adverse effects to vaccines and this should be clearly stated if true and not hidden.

Surely in the scenario Simon mentioned it is only the unvaxed child that is at risk. All other children who have been vaxed should be covered.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Surely in the scenario Simon mentioned it is only the unvaxed child that is at risk. All other children who have been vaxed should be covered.

The problem is unvaccinated people carrying the virus and infecting children too young to have received their full vaccinations. Widespread vaccination reduces the risk of the virus being active in the wider community.

Harry Palmr

Yes, the criminal stupidity of some parents has to be overcome to protect the general public. Why should anyone else be exposed to illness and indeed potentially deadly illness because of refuseniks?

Keano

TommyKnocker wrote: »

No, IMHO. But there should be more done to educate people on the issue and debunk the anti vaxxer spiel. Also goverment's and the pharma industry need to be more transparent with the possible side effects of the vaccines. There are stories of apparently healthy children having adverse effects to vaccines and this should be clearly stated if true and not hidden.

Surely in the scenario Simon mentioned it is only the unvaxed child that is at risk. All other children who have been vaxed should be covered.

Who are hiding them?

Princess Calla

Yes, there are many children who can't get vaccinated due to other health issues. These children rely on herd immunity.

JohnnyFlash

Yes, mandatory. No children’s allowance if you refuse to comply. The anti vaccination movement is a load of conspiracy theory lead nonsense.

AulWan

How could mandatory vaccination be implemented?

I'm just curious. A parent could just not bring their child to the doctor, or if they did bring them for some other reason, could a doctor administer a vaccine to the child without consent? That could be classed as an assault. Would the public health nurse be sent to the door?

I'm not anti-vax, both my kids got all their vaccines, but I'm just wondering out loud how it would work.

Yer Da sells Avon

To protect children from their idiot parents, yes.

weldoninhio

TommyKnocker wrote: »

No, IMHO. But there should be more done to educate people on the issue and debunk the anti vaxxer spiel. Also goverment's and the pharma industry need to be more transparent with the possible side effects of the vaccines. There are stories of apparently healthy children having adverse effects to vaccines and this should be clearly stated if true and not hidden.

Surely in the scenario Simon mentioned it is only the unvaxed child that is at risk. All other children who have been vaxed should be covered.

You know that annoying piece of paper you find inside your box of tablets or bottle of calpol etc?? That normally has all of the side effects, along with the ratio of people it affected.

Some people cannot take the vaccine. They are at most risk.

jimgoose

Mandatory. No vaccines, no school. No school, truant officer calling to the door. You can be an idiot on your own dime. Endanger me or mine, you're going down.

Harry Palmr

AulWan wrote: »

How could mandatory vaccination be implemented?

I'm just curious. A parent could just not bring their child to the doctor, or if they did bring them for some other reason, could a doctor administer a vaccine to the child without consent? That could be classed as an assault. Would the public health nurse be sent to the door?

I'm not anti-vax, both my kids got all their vaccines, but I'm just wondering out loud how it would work.

usually it's done in conjunction with school enrollment. No schooling without a vax cert.

weldoninhio

AulWan wrote: »

How could mandatory vaccination be implemented?

I'm just curious. A parent could just not bring their child to the doctor, or if they did bring them for some other reason, could a doctor administer a vaccine to the child without consent? That could be classed as an assault. Would the public health nurse be sent to the door?

I'm not anti-vax, both my kids got all their vaccines, but I'm just wondering out loud how it would work.

Need your vaccination record to get CA, attend playschool or attend mainstream school.

Princess Calla

AulWan wrote: »

How could mandatory vaccination be implemented?

I'm just curious. A parent could just not bring their child to the doctor, or if they did bring them for some other reason, could a doctor administer a vaccine to the child without consent? That could be classed as an assault. Would the public health nurse be sent to the door?

I'm not anti-vax, both my kids got all their vaccines, but I'm just wondering out loud how it would work.

My first had a rocky start so vaccinations were behind schedule on the advice of medical team, I did get letters from hse reminding me..... Fully vaccinated now so not sure what their next step would have been.

Crèche also looked for details of vaccinations.

Cordell

Not providing vaccinations should be treated just as any other failure or refusal to provide vital medical treatment for your children as child neglect and possibly result in having your children taken away. Schools and creches and preschools need to require vaccination certificate.

charlietheminxx

Yes, I believe they should be mandatory except in cases where there is a legitimate medical reason why the child can't receive the vaccine.

Look at all the countries losing their measles-free status at the moment as a result of the anti-MMR crowd? The risks of someone with a compromised immune system, such as a baby or a transplant patient, being exposed to measles and mumps is higher than it was 20 years ago, and it can be lethal.

chrissb8

Just like we have fluoride in our water to strengthen our enamel and teeth Vaccines should be mandatory. I mean what like, do you want to get a disease or have the opportunity to get a disease or something? Or worse yet spread it to other people? Vaccines go beyond just your personal decision.

Iscreamkone

Unless you have a medical reason for not being vaccinated then you should.
If you CHOOSE not to vaccinate your children then you should not be allowed access to creches, public schools and also any clubs where children attend. Soccer, GAA, Rugby etc.

If you don't vaccinate then you and your children should be shunned like the lepers of old.

ceadaoin.

Iscreamkone wrote: »

Unless you have a medical reason for not being vaccinated then you should.
If you CHOOSE not to vaccinate your children then you should not be allowed access to creches, public schools and also any clubs where children attend. Soccer, GAA, Rugby etc.

If you don't vaccinate then you and your children should be shunned like the lepers of old.

Yeah, let's punish the children for the actions of their parents. Makes perfect sense and won't have an effect on them at all.

No, I dont think vaccinations should be mandatory because I dont think that removing parental choice and consent in such matters is really a good idea. It makes me very uneasy.

My child is fully vaccinated so I'm not a "crazy" anti vaxxer before anyone says that. I respect people's choices and some are for valid reasons and not based on conspiracy theories.

Cordell

Removal parental choice is the most unfounded argument there is! There is no choice in this matter, vaccines are safe and absolutely required.
Do you have the parental choice of not feeding your child?

charlietheminxx

ceadaoin. wrote: »

My child is fully vaccinated so I'm not a "crazy" anti vaxxer before anyone says that. I respect people's choices and some are for valid reasons and not based on conspiracy theories.

Like what though? Aside from a medical issue that prevents vaccination, what is a valid reason?

It is the law for parents to educate their children, for their benefit and that of society, should parents have a right to say no to that as well?

Keano

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yeah, let's punish the children for the actions of their parents. Makes perfect sense and won't have an effect on them at all.

No, I dont think vaccinations should be mandatory because I dont think that removing parental choice in any matter involving a person's children is really a good idea.

My child is fully vaccinated so I'm not a "crazy" anti vaxxer before anyone says that. I respect people's choices and some are for valid reasons and not based on conspiracy theories.

Those that have valid reasons are few and far between.

ceadaoin.

Cordell wrote: »

Removal parental choice is the most unfounded argument there is! There is no choice in this matter, vaccines are safe and absolutely required.
Do you have the parental choice of not feeding your child?

No vaccine is 100% safe, there is always the chance of severe adverse effects, however small that may be. Some parents dont want to take that risk for various reasons.

Insect Overlord

ceadaoin. wrote: »

No vaccine is 100% safe, there is always the chance of severe adverse effects, however small that may be. Some parents dont want to take that risk for various reasons.

That's true of eating peanuts, going for a swim, or driving a car...

charlietheminxx

ceadaoin. wrote: »

No vaccine is 100% safe, there is always the chance of severe adverse effects, however small that may be. Some parents dont want to take that risk for various reasons.

Have there ever been proven severe effects to the standard vaccine schedule in Ireland? I don't think those parents have a right to increase the risk of other people dying through a preventable serious illness, which is a known and proven threat.

Iscreamkone

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yeah, let's punish the children for the actions of their parents. Makes perfect sense and won't have an effect on them at all.

No, I dont think vaccinations should be mandatory because I dont think that removing parental choice and consent in such matters is really a good idea. It makes me very uneasy.

My child is fully vaccinated so I'm not a "crazy" anti vaxxer before anyone says that. I respect people's choices and some are for valid reasons and not based on conspiracy theories.

The ONLY valid reason for not being vaccinated is a medical one.

How about let's punish the children who can't get vaccines by allowing the anti-vaxxer's kids to infect them with measles and the like.

You wouldn't respect someones choice to allow their kid bring a gun to school, would you?

ceadaoin.

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Like what though? Aside from a medical issue that prevents vaccination, what is a valid reason?

It is the law for parents to educate their children, for their benefit and that of society, should parents have a right to say no to that as well?

Well I said it before on the other thread, that a friend of mine chose not to vaccinate her child because her own brother was left severely disabled after being vaccinated. He was one of the very unlucky ones. He received a multi million dollar payout from the government to provide for the care he needed for the rest of his life (this is in the US)

She has no idea if the potential for such a reaction could be hereditary so she will not risk it. I completely understand that and I would consider that a medical choice not to tbh. Her sons doctors fully support her decision btw as they are aware of her family history.


Her son is my daughters best friend, I'm not going to shun him because of it, as suggested earlier ffs. That's just ridiculous.

Cordell

ceadaoin. wrote: »

No vaccine is 100% safe, there is always the chance of severe adverse effects, however small that may be. Some parents dont want to take that risk for various reasons.

It's the risk/benefit ratio, tl:dr version is actually safer to take the risk of giving the vaccine.
Choking on their food happens more often than serious vaccine adverse reactions yet most parents still insist to feed their children.

ceadaoin.

Cordell wrote: »

It's the risk/benefit ratio, tl:dr version is actually safer to take the risk of giving the vaccine.
Choking on their food happens more often than serious vaccine adverse reactions yet most parents still insist to feed their children.

Yeah whatever. Dont really want to get into a debate about all that. You dont need to "convert" me, I already said that my child is fully vaccinated and will continue to be. I just dont agree with mandatory vaccinations

Pauliedragon

Iscreamkone wrote: »

The ONLY valid reason for not being vaccinated is a medical one.

How about let's punish the children who can't get vaccines by allowing the anti-vaxxer's kids to infect them with measles and the like.

You wouldn't respect someones choice to allow their kid bring a gun to school, would you?

What if those parents actions are to the detriment of other children? A baby in Perth Aus died recently. It turns out she got infected with measles from an unvaccinated child she came in contact with.

Iscreamkone

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well I said it before on the other thread, that a friend of mine chose not to vaccinate her child because her own brother was left severely disabled after being vaccinated. He was one of the very unlucky ones. He received a multi million dollar payout from the government to provide for the care he needed for the rest of his life (this is in the US)

She has no idea if the potential for such a reaction could be hereditary so she will not risk it. I completely understand that and I would consider that a medical choice not to tbh. Her sons doctors fully support her decision btw as they are aware of her family history.


Her son is my daughters best friend, I'm not going to shun him because of it, as suggested earlier ffs. That's just ridiculous.

If I knew someone didn't get their child vaccinated then I'd have that child banned from my child's birthday parties, play dates etc. Fair is fair!

Cordell

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yeah whatever. Dont really want to get into a debate about all that. You dont need to "convert" me, I already said that my child is fully vaccinated and will continue to be. I just dont agree with mandatory vaccinations

That's fine, you just don't agree, that's your right.
And it's my right to point out that there is no valid logical argument behind your disagreement

osarusan

The idea that the state should have the power to enforce it doesn't sit easily with me.

On the other hand, idiot parents endangering their own child and others doesn't sit well with me either.

Ideally, every member of society would be so well-informed on the topic that this wouldn't be an issue, but that's never the reality for anything.

Perhaps enforcing some kind of liability for parents who refuse vaccination without good reason, in the event that their unvaccinated child later ends up causing a problem for somebody else?

ceadaoin.

Iscreamkone wrote: »

If I knew someone didn't get their child vaccinated then I'd have that child banned from my child's birthday parties, play dates etc. Fair is fair!

You better put a requirement for parents to provide vaccine certification for their children on your party invites then. There's no other way to be sure!

Cordell

No, definitely not, the state doesn't have power to enforce even life saving medical procedures, but only it can hold the parents accountable of failing to provide. Same needs to happen for vaccines as well.
I never said it should be forced vaccinations, that's absolutely not acceptable.

So yes, liability for the parents, regardless of whether something happens or not. Children that are not vaccinated are endangering not only themselves, but the others.

Princess Calla

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well I said it before on the other thread, that a friend of mine chose not to vaccinate her child because her own brother was left severely disabled after being vaccinated. He was one of the very unlucky ones. He received a multi million dollar payout from the government to provide for the care he needed for the rest of his life (this is in the US)

She has no idea if the potential for such a reaction could be hereditary so she will not risk it. I completely understand that and I would consider that a medical choice not to tbh. Her sons doctors fully support her decision btw as they are aware of her family history.


Her son is my daughters best friend, I'm not going to shun him because of it, as suggested earlier ffs. That's just ridiculous.

To be honest I think that falls into the medically unable to receive vaccinations category and I'm not sure if I'd make a different choice in her shoes.

However, if I had a newborn/ not fully vaccinated child in the house, I'd be very uneasy with them visiting.

The same way if you visited my house with a coldsore you were not getting a cuddle from my newborn.

ceadaoin.

Princess Calla wrote: »

To be honest I think that falls into the medically unable to receive vaccinations category and I'm not sure if I'd make a different choice in her shoes.

However, if I had a newborn/ not fully vaccinated child in the house, I'd be very uneasy with them visiting.

The same way if you visited my house with a coldsore you were not getting a cuddle from my newborn.

Yes, perhaps I would feel the same if I had a newborn too to be honest. But I dont judge her for her choice at all like some on here would, and dont think it should be forced on her. Her son can choose to receive the vaccines if he so wishes when he is older.

Fionn1952

I'd absolutely support mandatory vaccinations, except in the case where the child has medical reasons they couldn't be vaccinated. The right to live for those who can't be vaccinated outweighs the right to believe nonsense by my reckoning.

Paddy Cow

Unfortunately there are people out there stupid enough to believe that measles are just a harmless disease.

mcmoustache

Harry Palmr wrote: »

usually it's done in conjunction with school enrollment. No schooling without a vax cert.

weldoninhio wrote: »

Need your vaccination record to get CA, attend playschool or attend mainstream school.

This is exactly how it should be done. I don't like the idea of forcing vaccinations on people but I have no problem at all making it a condition of school attendance or child allowance or dole or whatever.

Canis Lupus

Poll needs a straight yes. Not just 'in some cases'.

AulWan

ceadaoin. wrote: »

No, I dont think vaccinations should be mandatory because I dont think that removing parental choice and consent in such matters is really a good idea. It makes me very uneasy.

This. It makes me very uneasy too.

The title of thread is "Should some vaccinations be mandatory?"

I would be concerned that once parental consent for any vaccine is waived, that it would very soon change from some vaccinations to all vaccinations, and that just doesn't sit right with me.

Capt'n Midnight

AulWan wrote: »

How could mandatory vaccination be implemented?

It should be voluntary.

But people would have to fund the full public health costs of diseases they aren't vaccinated against. Parents and guardians would have to cover the costs of minors.

Graces7

a/c to the Independent and other sources, uptake of eg flu vaccine among health care workers is low; less than one in six in some areas- cannot post links but google is easy.


and no re compulsory; until HSE come clean re the number of bad reactions etc and get their act together. the HPV is the worst for this.

charlietheminxx

Graces7 wrote: »

and no re compulsory; until HSE come clean re the number of bad reactions etc and get their act together. the HPV is the worst for this.

Grace this is just not true. The HPV vaccine is safe, it has been proven to be safe in studies around the world. There is no conspiracy out there to cover up that there are some rare minor risks, but the HPV vaccine will save many, many young people from future cancers. I wish I was young enough to get it.

griffin100

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Have there ever been proven severe effects to the standard vaccine schedule in Ireland? I don't think those parents have a right to increase the risk of other people dying through a preventable serious illness, which is a known and proven threat.

The vacine which lots of us, including my pregnant wife, were advised to get (and got) in 2009 when swine flu was an issue is now potentially deemed to be unsafe - https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948

There is a significant claim ongoing against the HSE around this but it's rarely mentioned in the media - https://www.thejournal.ie/swine-flu-narcolepsy-court-cases-4578353-Apr2019/

My kids are all vaccinated so I'm not an antivax nut nut but I'm wary of the HPV vaccine. The research suggests it's all ok but I have some friend who is a doctor and another who is a nurse who wont allow their own daughters to get it and that makes me nervous.

Raconteuse

When it puts at risk the child and other children who can't yet be vaccinated, how is it even up for debate? (I'm not including anti vaccine campaigners because they don't count).

Parents shouldn't have the choice not to - it's not about them, it's about the health of their children and other children. And the state making it mandatory? No biggie - it makes plenty mandatory for children's welfare.

Graces7

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Grace this is just not true. The HPV vaccine is safe, it has been proven to be safe in studies around the world. There is no conspiracy out there to cover up that there are some rare minor risks, but the HPV vaccine will save many, many young people from future cancers. I wish I was young enough to get it.

No what YOU say is not true ! Look up REGRET. The facts that so many young women succumbed to CFS after the vaccine was whitewashed. It is a terrible illness from which many will never recover, multi faceted and all pervasive
Something I know from personal experience and which I have studied in depth with experts on all sides . In my coping and living with it. Those girls' lives are ruined.

There was a thread here re "antivaxx"? and it was claimed that this was sheer coincidence as the age they were was one at which CFS/ME occurred most frequently which is not true. Anything but admit the connection and see if the vaccine could be improved to filter out these damaging effects.

I and others would have more trust and give them more credence if they faced and admitted that these side effects could and do occur - and if folk here would do the same.

Like all vaccines it needs far greater caution. Many other countries have had great doubts re the HPV and have acted on it; cannot post links but seek and find.

Finland is the latest. and look up the American College of Paediatricians who are seriously concerned re the very real dangers of this vaccine
It is neither rare nor minor.

Not a conspiracy just chosen, convenient ignoring facts.

But you will believe and trust where you choose and I will do the same; and for me it is not with HSE on this. With good reason. My right and privilege .

Over and out from me on this; my active days are increasingly curtailed with illness. Good night and sleep well!

Graces7

griffin100 wrote: »

The vacine which lots of us, including my pregnant wife, were advised to get (and got) in 2009 when swine flu was an issue is now potentially deemed to be unsafe - https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948

There is a significant claim ongoing against the HSE around this but it's rarely mentioned in the media - https://www.thejournal.ie/swine-flu-narcolepsy-court-cases-4578353-Apr2019/

My kids are all vaccinated so I'm not an antivax nut nut but I'm wary of the HPV vaccine. The research suggests it's all ok but I have some friend who is a doctor and another who is a nurse who wont allow their own daughters to get it and that makes me nervous.

You do right re HPV; just posted re the USA and Finland .

charlietheminxx

Graces7 wrote: »

No what YOU say is not true ! Look up REGRET. The facts that so many young women succumbed to CFS after the vaccine was whitewashed. It is a terrible illness from which many will never recover, multi faceted and all pervasive
Something I know from personal experience and which I have studied in depth with experts on all sides . In my coping and living with it. Those girls' lives are ruined.

There was a thread here re "antivaxx"? and it was claimed that this was sheer coincidence as the age they were was one at which CFS/ME occurred most frequently which is not true. Anything but admit the connection and see if the vaccine could be improved to filter out these damaging effects.

I know 2 girls from my year at school alone who were both struck with CFS & ME at the same age, came on after a bad viral infection for one of them and out of the blue for the other - I'm in my thirties and there was no HPV vaccine to blame it on then. We can all share anecdotes Grace but SCIENTIFIC FACTS are facts, it is not a matter of opinion.

There's been plenty said on here before about Regret. I feel very sorry for young women (or anyone, including yourself) dealing with a chronic condition like that but it is something that would have happened with or without the vaccine. Do you know what would ruin those girls lives? Dying of cervical cancer before they get to my age.

Scaremongering increases the risk of young women not being vaccinated and ending up dead instead.

jimgoose

This is why statistics, like shotguns, credit-cards and hard liquor, should be kept away from most people. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc and all that.