Putting new ideas in older minds

StereoSound

For some of the older generations in Ireland, there would have been certain conditioning going on, we all have conditioning forced upon us when growing up, in modern society it is right not to discriminate, be judgmental based on your race, sexuality etc.

For some people who grew up in the decades of the 50's, 60's etc, as we all know the catholic church had so much power and it would have been drilled into peoples heads that it was not appropriate to be gay along with other nonsense ideas. In modern society these older ideas are not appropriate anymore and here are my question...

Should people who have been forced to believe in facts from the older times be punished for still believing in these ways in our modern world ? Is it their fault they were subjected to this behavioral belief system ? And should they be called out for something that was drilled into their heads since a young age ? How do you approach such people who will not accept the world as it is today because of decades of belief ? There are many older beliefs, not specifically homosexuality. It can be anything really, I just used this one as an example since it was a common no no that was preached back in those days.

biko

In a humane society you cannot punish someone for what they believe in.
That would saying things are only right or wrong, there is only black and white, which is unnuanced and in most cases simply stupid.

In 50 years time many of the things kids today believe will be wrong, do we have to punish them then?



For instance - you should not punish someone who believes it's ok to smack kids.
You can however punish them for actually smacking their kids.
You see the distinction?

Sunny Disposition

I’d be older myself, don’t think many people of my age or older believe homosexuality is wrong though. Would question the level of evidence for that.
Definitely a lot of older people are religious, not much doubt about that, more out of habit than anything though.
People can believe most things without punishment in a functioning society. They can believe homosexuality is wrong if they want, it’s impossible to stop someone. Of course it is illegal to discriminate though, even though this is impossible to fully enforce.

I see no automatic reason to approach old people and try to change their minds on anything.

If however they show up expressing such opinions in any forum of note - for example on a discussion forum like this one - or in a real life forum trying to influence the votes or opinions of others - or if their vote matters on an important referendum - then I will call them out with my own arguments just as readily as I would someone half or a quarter of their age.

Or if I came to the opinion their false belief was in some way causing them personal pain or harm - I would indeed try to lead them out of that belief. If their child or grand child coming out as homosexual for example caused them emotional pain - because they have bigoted false or outdated beliefs about homosexuals - I would certainly feel compelled to confront those beliefs in them for their own benefit not mine.

But a little aul one with a nonsense idea in their head that they keep to themselves and causes them no personal pain - I think it better to choose ones battles a bit more carefully than bother accosting them about it.

touts

biko wrote: »

In a humane society you cannot punish someone for what they believe in.
That would saying things are only right or wrong, there is only black and white, which is unnuanced and in most cases simply stupid.

In 50 years time many of the things kids today believe will be wrong, do we have to punish them then?

Unfortunately these days thought crime is something you will most certainly be punished for. If you are not "woke" (a concept that seems to expand almost daily) then you are guilty. Now most people will get away with that for now but we have seen with many celebs and public figures being convicted immediately on accusation and forced out of their jobs. The woke generation seem very content with the efficiency of their guilt assigned automatically on accusation system and they seem to regard it as humane probably because those accused of thought crime no longer classify as human in their eyes. So unfortunately as that generation rise into positions of power I think we will find punishment for thought crime will become increasingly automatic and impactful even for ordinary people.

looksee

An older person is perfectly capable of absorbing new ideas and allowing their opinions to evolve. People can learn from life experience and it can become what used be respected as an older person's wisdom.

The fact that they can does not mean that they always do. Some people allow their minds to develop and mature, others have less capacity for change, or find it easier to stick with what they decided on in their youth. Maybe there are academic studies on this, but it seems to me that if a person has less imagination, was raised in a rigid environment, or does not have the self confidence to change then they are more likely to stick with ideas picked up or taught to them in their youth.

Young people can be very stubborn in sticking to ideas that really should be given more thought - whether extreme left or right makes no difference, they pick up an ideology and stick with it in spite of all argument. Sometimes they mature out of this and allow experience and willingness to consider other ideas to develop their thinking, sometimes they do not.

Also, it is worth remembering that some of the ideas that are currently considered acceptable and/or morally correct could somehow change over the lifetime of someone who is a young person now, and be the ideas that have to be adjusted by the time s/he is old.

Having said that, yes, it is possible for a much older person to not even be aware that something they say or an opinion they have is no longer acceptable, and there are times when really you just have to let it go, or at most say mildly 'most people think its a bit rude or unkind to refer to another person as x'. They are not going to change the world with their views and there are more important hills to climb.

Church on Tuesday

Well the older generations where never really allowed to think for themselves TBH. That is the distinct difference between old and new generational outlooks.

It's only really from around the 80's through to the 90's and then 00's that a more open minded society began to take hold and flourish, no doubt that is as a result of dwindling Church influence and relative economic prosperity and higher intake of third level education.

However, a lot of the older values namely; loyalty, basic human decency, resourcefulness, personal responsibility and a sense of community have been largely denigrated as a result (not completely of course, human nature being inherently what it is). We live now in a narcissistic and decedent age and an utterly throwaway society. We have pushed so far to the liberal left that you best be careful how you speak and what you say and to whom you say it to. People are freer now to live how they want and be who they want, and that is a good thing but we have certainly disposed with the good values of older generations to a mostly large degree.

biko

The difference between old and young people is that old people have longer experience and can base their judgements on more information.

Just as an experiment, if you think back to when you were 15 - did you have things more "sussed out" then than now?
Did you believe things at 15 that you have since outgrown?

riffmongous

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Well the older generations where never really allowed to think for themselves TBH. That is the distinct difference between old and new generational outlooks.

It's only really from around the 80's through to the 90's and then 00's that a more open minded society began to take hold and flourish, no doubt that is as a result of dwindling Church influence and relative economic prosperity and higher intake of third level education.

However, a lot of the older values namely; loyalty, basic human decency, resourcefulness, personal responsibility and a sense of community have been largely denigrated as a result (not completely of course, human nature being inherently what it is). We live now in a narcissistic and decedent age and an utterly throwaway society. We have pushed so far to the liberal left that you best be careful how you speak and what you say and to whom you say it to. People are freer now to live how they want and be who they want, and that is a good thing but we have certainly disposed with the good values of older generations to a mostly large degree.

When was this not the case? Certainly not in the times of conservative right wing Ireland. Indeed the values that you mention above were very much tied to this, loyalty community and human decency didn't last long if you said or did the wrong thing to your family or neighbours or the priest.

I do agree otherwise though with regards to modern society, but I don't think those values have to be lost due to changes in society, we are just going about it in the wrong way.. imo thanks to a lot of capitalist driven consumerism

riffmongous

biko wrote: »

The difference between old and young people is that old people have longer experience and can base their judgements on more information.

Just as an experiment, if you think back to when you were 15 - did you have things more "sussed out" then than now?
Did you believe things at 15 that you have since outgrown?

They can.. but I'm certainly not convinced that they do. And indeed it's getting arguable if they really do have access to more information, experience maybe but younger people probably know more than most very old people. And experience is useful but not infallible

Church on Tuesday

riffmongous wrote: »

When was this not the case? Certainly not in the times of conservative right wing Ireland. Indeed the values that you mention above were very much tied to this, loyalty community and human decency didn't last long if you said or did the wrong thing to your family or neighbours or the priest.

I do agree otherwise though with regards to modern society, but I don't think those values have to be lost due to changes in society, we are just going about it in the wrong way.. imo thanks to a lot of capitalist driven consumerism

What I mean is that we live in an ultra PC age now which is actually socially regressive. Conservative Ireland was the same within that context of Church and country and a kind of rigid jaundiced morality that prevailed.

The values I have mentioned don't have to be tied to or be a result of any form of conservatism, rather something to try to aspire to and pass on to generations to come.

ArrBee

StereoSound wrote: »

For some of the older generations in Ireland, there would have been certain conditioning going on, we all have conditioning forced upon us when growing up, in modern society it is right not to discriminate, be judgmental based on your race, sexuality etc.

For some people who grew up in the decades of the 50's, 60's etc, as we all know the catholic church had so much power and it would have been drilled into peoples heads that it was not appropriate to be gay along with other nonsense ideas. In modern society these older ideas are not appropriate anymore and here are my question...

Should people who have been forced to believe in facts from the older times be punished for still believing in these ways in our modern world ? Is it their fault they were subjected to this behavioral belief system ? And should they be called out for something that was drilled into their heads since a young age ? How do you approach such people who will not accept the world as it is today because of decades of belief ? There are many older beliefs, not specifically homosexuality. It can be anything really, I just used this one as an example since it was a common no no that was preached back in those days.

Very interesting topic and question!

On a personal level I find it pretty easy to filter peoples thinking/behavior etc based on a number of things.
Age is one - as you put it the world will always be a different place 30-50 years ago and that has an impact on ones outlook.
But there are other influences that shape how people interact with the world.
Culture, upbringing etc.

Where this question gets really tricky is the "should we expect them to change?" bit.

It's a double edged sword. You can go giving an excuse for what is now bad behavior and let them off with it - as that will stifle change.
But I don't begrudge an older person carrying views that were common back in the day.

Gregor Samsa

My dad's 80. He voted Yes in both the abortion and gay marriage referenda. On the other hand, he did one day start angrily ranting about the "bloody refugees" not respecting our culture. What caused it was three French tourists stopping in the middle of a footpath about 20 feet in front of us in the Phoenix Park to consult their phone while trying to find the Zoo. He had to walk slightly on the (dry) grass for a second to get around them, and saw this as an afront to the nation.

To be honest, though, I don't think many people really bother arguing with old people who are really set in their ways (I didn't with my dad that day). They certainly don't get punished for it. Thinking about some of my elderly in-laws, who would sometimes express some very outdated and ill informed opinions about sex, religion, race and lots of other matters. People usually nod politely and change the subject.

Paddy Cow

People aren't punished for their beliefs, they're punished for their behaviour. It's ok to think that homosexuality is a sin, it's not ok to treat people who are homosexual any differently to straight people.

Paddy Cow

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

My dad's 80. He voted Yes in both the abortion and gay marriage referenda. On the other hand, he did one day start angrily ranting about the "bloody refugees" not respecting our culture. What caused it was three French tourists stopping in the middle of a footpath about 20 feet in front of us in the Phoenix Park to consult their phone while trying to find the Zoo. He had to walk slightly on the (dry) grass for a second to get around them, and saw this as an afront to the nation.

To be honest, though, I don't think many people really bother arguing with old people who are really set in their ways (I didn't with my dad that day). They certainly don't get punished for it. Thinking about some of my elderly in-laws, who would sometimes express some very outdated and ill informed opinions about sex, religion, race and lots of other matters. People usually nod politely and change the subject.

About ten years ago my brother was dating a woman I got on well with. We were around the mid 20's bracket and Claire was telling me that her mother couldn't understand why she was living with my brother when they weren't married. It just wasn't the don't think in Claire's mother's time. In fairness her mother didn't lecture her on living in sin or try to pressure her to not live with my brother but it did come up from time to time.

One eyed Jack

StereoSound wrote: »

For some of the older generations in Ireland, there would have been certain conditioning going on, we all have conditioning forced upon us when growing up, in modern society it is right not to discriminate, be judgmental based on your race, sexuality etc.

For some people who grew up in the decades of the 50's, 60's etc, as we all know the catholic church had so much power and it would have been drilled into peoples heads that it was not appropriate to be gay along with other nonsense ideas. In modern society these older ideas are not appropriate anymore and here are my question...

Should people who have been forced to believe in facts from the older times be punished for still believing in these ways in our modern world ? Is it their fault they were subjected to this behavioral belief system ? And should they be called out for something that was drilled into their heads since a young age ? How do you approach such people who will not accept the world as it is today because of decades of belief ? There are many older beliefs, not specifically homosexuality. It can be anything really, I just used this one as an example since it was a common no no that was preached back in those days.

I don’t think people who don’t view the world the same way as each other is a generational thing. Most of the time I couldn’t care less what other people believe, but sometimes I do, particularly if they believe that I’m wrong in my beliefs. I don’t see their attempts to “correct” my beliefs as anything other than the attempt at conditioning you’re talking about.

FWIW btw that whole idea of the general population of Ireland in thrall to the RCC ignores the idea that the Irish population weren’t always a Catholic majority, nor did Catholics have any power whatsoever. People weren’t all as poor and ill-educated as you might imagine either. Irish society then really wasn’t all that different from Irish society today.

You’ll also find that plenty of older people, because they have lived through generations of Irish society, will often be far more tolerant of people with different beliefs to theirs, than many of the younger generations are today.

Gregor Samsa

Paddy Cow wrote: »

About ten years ago my brother was dating a woman I got on well with. We were around the mid 20's bracket and Claire was telling me that her mother couldn't understand why she was living with my brother when they weren't married.

My mother in law visited her parish priest to ask him if it was ok for her to attend our wedding, because it was in a registry office. She was shocked when he told her there was no problem, because she was convinced that even being a witness to a civil marriage must be a sin.

The Tetrarch

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

My mother in law visited her parish priest to ask him if it was ok for her to attend our wedding, because it was in a registry office. She was shocked when he told her there was no problem, because she was convinced that even being a witness to a civil marriage must be a sin.

You were marrying the parish priest?

Are you talking about inception?

BDI

For argument sake, if they actually found out with scientific evidence published and peer reviewed that gayness was actually wrong would you happily have your mind changed or would you sit at the kitchen table shaking your head saying no no no it’s wrong.

Say there was a headline saying the hadron collider has found evidence that gayness caused all the bad stuff in the world. Would you stick to your belief.



Before any master of the internet has a canary, I am not suggesting gayness is bad I am interested in the ops abilitity to change their mind just like he has accused old people, which to be honest is pretty crazy.

How can we stop old people being so homophobic is just like old people saying how do we stop young men being so gay.

So op maybe you are just as bad as them. Anyway I’m rambling and you are ageist.

freshpopcorn

Some people are just a tad more conservative and it's impossible to change their minds on certain subjects.
It's just how they were raised and what they are used to.
Similar to what a younger generation might believe. In fifty years time a younger generation might look back and say the stuff we did was idiotic.
You'd even be surprised with some of the parents out their who are terrified there kids may end up in hell over there life but they say nothing and get on with it.

looksee

I don't think the OP is ageist, a little patronising maybe, generalising a bit, but its a good point being made and worthy of discussion. There are lots of things on Boards that can be described as ageist, I keep reporting them but evidently the mods don't consider ageism significant.

A recent discussion about aul wans wasting time at supermarket checkouts was ageist - if you substitute 'gays' or 'blacks' for aul wans there would be an instant result, but aul wans, well they are time wasters and fumblers, aren't they? So I on the one hand report it as a matter of form, but tell myself I should have a sense of humour about the fact that my fingers can be a bit stiff when I go to get my card out of my purse. And it is amusing that a slowed down muscle tone doesn't quite let me chuck my groceries in the bag like I used to. And while I don't tend to chat unnecessarily to the checkout person, for some people they are one of the few people an elderly person might have a chat with.

And this brings us round to the original topic - older people grew up being accustomed to having a few words with people they met, it was the mannerly thing to do. Should they be trained out of this as well while they are being instructed on what else is no longer acceptable?

I'm not sure age is more relevant than upbringing or just a persons natural character. My late grandfather used to say that age opens minds, not closes them. It made sense because you'd imagine the more life experience a person has and the more of the ways of the world they've seen, the more open they are to new ideas.

Perhaps if you live your life in a very insular way, with a small group of intimes and never changing habits you are unlikely to widen your horizons in other ways. And perhaps people of previous generations were more likely to live their lives in that manner.

JohnnyFlash

A lot of old people are thick, ignorant, stupid, and intolerable arseholes. Living longer hasn’t made them any wiser. If fact many of them use their age to manipulate people into feeling sorry for them.

looksee

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

A lot of old people are thick, ignorant, stupid, and intolerable arseholes. Living longer hasn’t made them any wiser. If fact many of them use their age to manipulate people into feeling sorry for them.

They were probably thick, ignorant, stupid, and intolerable arseholes when they were younger too. What is your point?

vriesmays

biko wrote: »

50 years time many of the things kids today believe will be wrong, do we have to punish them then?

Climate change.

kowloon

biko wrote: »

Just as an experiment, if you think back to when you were 15 - did you have things more "sussed out" then than now?
Did you believe things at 15 that you have since outgrown?

I wish I could go back to a time when I knew everything, exposure to the world has made everything so uncertain. You spend so much time forming ideas about how the world should work it can be pretty demoralising learning more about how the world does work.

I knew everything when I was 18. I began to suspect this was not the case as I experienced more and more of the world and new ideas. Now I'm over 30, and I realise I know next to nothing in the big scheme of things.

My Gran says she's forgotten more than I'll ever know, she's probably spot on.

topper75

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

What I mean is that we live in an ultra PC age now which is actually socially regressive. Conservative Ireland was the same within that context of Church and country and a kind of rigid jaundiced morality that prevailed.

The values I have mentioned don't have to be tied to or be a result of any form of conservatism, rather something to try to aspire to and pass on to generations to come.

The analogy is blatant. I don't know why more people don't observe it!

The buy-in from official channels, state broadcaster etc, has been equally fierce. Sanctimonious clerical opinion that was once sprinkled widely across radio shows and press columns has been replaced by the other side of the same coin with the new 'liberal' woke talk. Where they used to wheel out Fr. Brian or a prayer at bedtime, it is now the soapbox of Una or Fintan. If you live long enough you will see and hear strange things.

Paddy Cow

BDI wrote: »

For argument sake, if they actually found out with scientific evidence published and peer reviewed that gayness was actually wrong would you happily have your mind changed or would you sit at the kitchen table shaking your head saying no no no it’s wrong.

Say there was a headline saying the hadron collider has found evidence that gayness caused all the bad stuff in the world. Would you stick to your belief.



Before any master of the internet has a canary, I am not suggesting gayness is bad I am interested in the ops abilitity to change their mind just like he has accused old people, which to be honest is pretty crazy.

How can we stop old people being so homophobic is just like old people saying how do we stop young men being so gay.

So op maybe you are just as bad as them. Anyway I’m rambling and you are ageist.

Social change has happened from the beginning of time and for the most part, each generation improves upon the previous one. We look back now and wonder what the big deal was with people "living in sin" or mixed race marriages or people being gay and it just seems bizarre that at one time these things weren't only taboo but could cause serious problems.

I'm late 30's so not that old but even some of the changes I've seen over the last 5-10 years have left me scratching my head, most noticeably being the trans movement. Like you pointing out that you are not homophobic, I also want to say that I have no issue with trans people. Just like I don't understand why some people are born gay but I accept that being gay isn't a bad thing, I don't understand why some people are born in the wrong gender and I have no problem with someone who undergoes surgery and hormone treatment to get the right body to fit them.

What I do have a problem with is "self identification". People who can identify with the opposite gender and no one is allowed to question this. I have two problems with this. 1 It is open to abuse mainly by males who identify as females so they can access sports, bathrooms, prisons of the opposite sex etc with nefarious reasons. There have been numerous cases of men identifying as females just for this reason with terrible results.

2 Not all people who self identify as transgender are actually trans. Vulnerable people who have undiagnosed mental health issues and are struggling with their identity can mis-diagnose themselves and then convince themselves that's their issue and if they change their gender, they will feel whole. Once someone transitions, it's pretty much a one way operation. You cannot go back. I think we will see a back lash in 10-15 years where people who transitioned realise that wasn't the best medical option for them and they will look to see why no one spoke out. They won't understand that in our current climate, anyone who questions the status quo is labelled transphobic and becomes a social pariah.

So my dilemma is much like the situation put forth in the op. Am I simply an old person who is too behind the times and doesn't understand and accept the current status quo or will my concerns turn out to have merit? Should I be punished for my beliefs surrounding trans issues? Absolutely not. They're just beliefs and I'm not trying to stop anyone from transitioning. But I'm not naive enough to think that I could go on twitter and post that and not expect a massive backlash.

Times have changed op and social engineering via social media is a very real thing. People aren't waiting until you and your ideas are old and outdated anymore to try and change your way of thinking. Everyone is being targeted and if you don't go along with whatever is deemed acceptable, you will have a bad time. We try to teach teenagers not to bow to peer pressure but once you become an adult there can be severe consequences for going against the grain.