More children affected by parents being in prison than by child homelessness

Lillyfae

Just read this and while I'm not particularly shocked by it, it doesn't really fit the agenda of today:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/more-children-affected-by-parents-being-in-prison-than-by-child-homelessness-947888.html

The number of people in prison who are parents may be higher than initially estimated, according to preliminary data from the Irish Prison Service.

Dr Fiona Donson, director of the Centre for Criminal Justice and Human Rights in the Law School of University College Cork, said the data will be published in due course, pending ethical approval.


She told a session of the 12th North-South Criminology Conference at UCC that the data is now being collated by prison governors who are asking inmates on committal whether they have children, and if so, how many.

Dr Donson and her colleague, Dr Aisling Parkes, have been looking at issues around the impact of parental incarceration on children and advantages of a child-centred approach to issues such as prison visits. She said of the preliminary data: "It seems to be showing that the figures are higher than the official estimates."

Dr Donson said that while no country has absolute data on the number of people imprisoned who have children, an EU estimate put the population at 2 million children so affected, while in Scotland it's estimated that more children are impacted by parental incarceration than parental divorce.

Dr Donson said it is likely that more children in Ireland are affected by parents being in prison than by child homelessness, which has been at critical levels in recent years.

The conference also heard from the director of the Oberstown Child Detention Campus who said huge progress has been made with young people at the facility, including taking people off campus for courses. He said challenges remain, with half of those on campus today there on remand, adding:

That creates a psychological challenge for those who do not buy into Oberstown

I would imagine that it has something to do with the fact that these people are less likely to use contraception and thus have more children full stop, but this could also be true of the parents of homeless children. I do think the article loses the plot of itself towards the end a bit .

The event, which continues today, also heard that special measures put in place to assist crime victims with intellectual disabilities do not go far enough in a "disjointed statutory landscape".

Dr Alan Cusack of the University of Limerick said there is a case for pre-trial cross-examination, among other measures.

The conference, entitled 'Nothing about us without us' was opened by a panel of four keynote speakers; Dr Sindy Joyce, doctoral graduate of the department of sociology at University of Limerick; cervical check campaigner Vicky Phelan; Senator Lynn Ruane; and Juliet Lyons, a former director of Prison Reform Trust in Britain.

Dr Joyce said there has been some criticism of NGOs from members of her community over issues such as an upcoming national Traveller and Roma strategy, as she said two different groups - Roma and Travellers - are being "lumped together" and there is too little consultation and too many "ticking box exercises".

Vicky Phelan said she has "always been an advocate, I just didn't know there was a word for it".

"What happened to me last year was not my first foray into taking on the medical profession," she said. "We do what we do to get answers."

She said the support group with which she is involved to assist the women affected by the CervicalCheck scandal needs that support and that the conversation around the "horrible side effects" of the disease of cervical cancer needed to be normalised, with more information given at an earlier stage to those impacted by it.

InTheShadows

What "agenda of today"?

Lillyfae

InTheShadows wrote: »

What "agenda of today"?

Won't somebody think of the homeless children? Because obviously their parents are doing more than even non homeless children's parents :rolleyes:. No child should be homeless. No child should have a parent in prison. However, these things do not occur in a vacuum- people who are homeless or likely to be also have the ability to not have children while they are waiting for their living situation to stabilise. People who are in prison have the same ability, plus the ability to not commit crime- superhuman really.

The parents don't care about these children's wellbeing, physical, social, material, whatsoever- they are in essence being raised by the taxpayer in a financial sense but the taxpayer is the absentee parent- the only say over how these poor children are raised is by the very people who just don't have any interest in doing so.

Victor

InTheShadows wrote: »

What "agenda of today"?

Those who would argue for locking prisoners up forever, thereby making sure they never have a relationship with their children, thereby keeping those children in deprivation.

Lillyfae

Victor wrote: »

Those who would argue for locking prisoners up forever, thereby making sure they never have a relationship with their children, thereby keeping those children in deprivation.

Who the hell in Ireland is locked up forever? You see people with 600 previous convictions, including violent crimes, walking free on remand. Don't you think that this could possibly have a more damaging effect on their children's lives??

ILoveYourVibes

Victor wrote: »

Those who would argue for locking prisoners up forever, thereby making sure they never have a relationship with their children, thereby keeping those children in deprivation.

You think their children wouldn't be in deprivation if they weren't locked up? Honestly not having contact is probably for the best.

No child should have a parent in prison.

Are you for real? Yes some children should have parents in prison. If they are child abusers or drug addicts who beat them.

I don't think you get what some people are born into.

people who are homeless or likely to be also have the ability to not have children while they are waiting for their living situation to stabilise.

True but a bit late now.

Their need is real tho. Homeless or the child of an offender their needs are very real and very desperate.

Irishphotodesk

Am I reading this correctly,some people are gathering data to try to argue/support changes so that we will make life easier for prisoners because being a parent in prison has a bad effect on a child.

How about they go collect data on the effect the actions of those in prison has effected the victims of the crimes !

As a victim of crime, society needs to stand up to the do gooders, I do agree that it's possible that children who have a parent in prison possibly suffer,
what's the solution?... Tell the parent to stop committing crimes and getting caught.

By all means give supports for children when their parents go into jail for first time, then any multiple times explain to the prisoner that because of their reoffending the child must suffer even greater... That's not gonna work !!!

If this data is produced to seek changes to the prison system, I would ask each and every one of you to ask the creators of the report/group seeking changes for the statistics they did on the impact of the criminals actions on their victims, highlight that they have statistics to suit themselves and the real victims are ignored.

Lillyfae

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Are you for real? Yes some children should have parents in prison. If they are child abusers or drug addicts who beat them.

I don't think you get what some people are born into.

I'm saying that they don't deserve to have a parent in prison- I'm not saying that their parents don't deserve to be in prison.

ILoveYourVibes

Lillyfae wrote: »

I'm saying that they don't deserve to have a parent in prison- I'm not saying that their parents don't deserve to be in prison.

That doesn't mean anything.

Its like saying to someone you don't deserve to have cancer. They have it. That's life. Wut we gonna do now is the most important step.

Everyone deserves top class high earning loving perfect parents. No one gets them.

The issue is if you start sponsoring kids financially when they have a parent in prison. People will feel its a reward and that the state supports the criminals kid and not others.

It might not be right but that is the way a lot of people will feel. Probably the way a lot of kids themselves will feel.

They do need support though. I mean i doubt the other parent is exactly perfect either in a lot of these cases.

Lillyfae

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

That doesn't mean anything.

Its like saying to someone you don't deserve to have cancer. They have it. That's life. Wut we gonna do now is the most important step.

Everyone deserves top class high earning loving perfect parents. No one gets them.

The issue is if you start sponsoring kids financially when they have a parent in prison. People will feel its a reward and that the state supports the criminals kid and not others.

It might not be right but that is the way a lot of people will feel. Probably the way a lot of kids themselves will feel.

They do need support though. I mean i doubt the other parent is exactly perfect either in a lot of these cases.

You never stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth, do you?

Del2005

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

That doesn't mean anything.

Its like saying to someone you don't deserve to have cancer. They have it. That's life. Wut we gonna do now is the most important step.

Everyone deserves top class high earning loving perfect parents. No one gets them.

The issue is if you start sponsoring kids financially when they have a parent in prison. People will feel its a reward and that the state supports the criminals kid and not others.

It might not be right but that is the way a lot of people will feel. Probably the way a lot of kids themselves will feel.

They do need support though. I mean i doubt the other parent is exactly perfect either in a lot of these cases.

We're already doing this. A kid is a trouble maker in school and they get trips away and other rewards if they don't cause trouble. The kid who does their work and causes no problems doesn't get trips away or other rewards for not causing trouble. So the kids learn from an early age that the more trouble you cause the more free stuff is given to you. Then they see our "justice" system is the same so they start racking up the convictions.

Tombo2001

Del2005 wrote: »

We're already doing this. A kid is a trouble maker in school and they get trips away and other rewards if they don't cause trouble. The kid who does their work and causes no problems doesn't get trips away or other rewards for not causing trouble. So the kids learn from an early age that the more trouble you cause the more free stuff is given to you. Then they see our "justice" system is the same so they start racking up the convictions.

and you didnt just make this up on the spot.......? Really?

Tombo2001

I think to the OP's wider point:

The Homeless* issue as been widely taken up as a cause by people whose motive is to bash government, rather than people who simply care about deprived children.

If their motive was to support deprived children, then this would be an issue for them also.

All things being equal, being deprived of a parent is a bigger deal than being deprived of a stable residence.



(*And by homeless in this case, we are talking about people who are on housing waiting lists).

Lillyfae

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think to the OP's wider point:

The Homeless issue as been widely taken up as a cause by people whose motive is to bash government, rather than people who simply care about the homeless.

And by homeless in this case, we are talking about people who are on housing waiting lists.

Kind of, but further too and perhaps more importantly, I'm saying that to question personal accountability of anyone is completely outlawed in Irish society these days. Whatever, but it's not fair or just that their innocent children should be effected by their selfishness, petulance or poor life choices. That takes higher priority than them perhaps being called out on their sh*tty parenting and feeling ashamed (if that's even possible), or lack of.

CrankyHaus

Del2005 wrote: »

We're already doing this. A kid is a trouble maker in school and they get trips away and other rewards if they don't cause trouble. The kid who does their work and causes no problems doesn't get trips away or other rewards for not causing trouble. So the kids learn from an early age that the more trouble you cause the more free stuff is given to you. Then they see our "justice" system is the same so they start racking up the convictions.

Pretty much. Also, for the criminal and welfare class it's widely perceived that the only way to get a house of your own is to have many children and game the housing list system in that way. Inevitably this results in increasing numbers of children with parents in prison, as well as children listed as "homeless" by parents like Margaret Cash looking to skip the housing queue. The obvious answer is to alter the weighting criteria for the housing list towards those in employment, you'd wipe out this incentivised behaviour within a generation and ultimately prevent much child disadvantage, instead we spend money hand over fist to encourage it.

its not that i dont care about parents being incapable or unsuitable to have children.

its that the solutions that i can get behind always seems to make the people telling me how much i should care shriek even louder at me.

its a weird one.

Irishphotodesk

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think to the OP's wider point:

The Homeless* issue as been widely taken up as a cause by people whose motive is to bash government, rather than people who simply care about deprived children.

If their motive was to support deprived children, then this would be an issue for them also.

All things being equal, being deprived of a parent is a bigger deal than being deprived of a stable residence.



(*And by homeless in this case, we are talking about people who are on housing waiting lists).

Maybe I’m wrong and I’m completely open to correction, I read the OP as being all about making life better for prisoners and very little about “homeless” children, they are seeking to have better facilities for families and more time for prisoners to engage with their offspring.

Personally I think it’s wrong, and will simply lead to recidivist male criminals knocking up as many different girls as they can so they get more “rights” and entitlements in prison, I think the better solution is to discourage repeat criminals by enforcing a system whereby if you break the rules of the state you can’t qualify for benefits of the state.... hit criminals where it hurts....in their pockets.

Sleeper12

Nothing surprising in this. Prison population is around 4000 at any given time if memory serves. The vast majority of these are young men of an age that you'd expect to have children. Many have children with several women.

I'm not really sure why they even bothered with the new article tbh

Sleeper12

Tombo2001 wrote:

(*And by homeless in this case, we are talking about people who are on housing waiting lists).

You do realise that most people on the housing list aren't part of our 10k homeless?

banie01

Well I wonder what the Dr's thrust with her assertion is?

Being a parent is already a very handy get out of jail free card for mother's.
Does the good doctor propose that the same degree of sentencing leniency is extended to father's?
Or
That Mother's face the same sentencing realities?

I wonder if the data presented will differentiate between those merely named on a birth cert? And those who are actually parenting their progeny?

I find it astonishing that an academic has basically leaked a suggestive portion of their report before it has been approved by an ethics committee.

GooglePlus

"More children affected by parents being in prison than by child homelessness"

Well duh?

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You do realise that most people on the housing list aren't part of our 10k homeless?

we all realise that there arent 10k homeless

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

we all realise that there arent 10k homeless

You are correct. There is over 10k homeless.

The point I was making is that the 10k homeless only make up 10 to 12 percent of people on the housing list in Ireland. Last figures I saw had around 75k on the housing list

Lillyfae

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Maybe I’m wrong and I’m completely open to correction, I read the OP as being all about making life better for prisoners and very little about “homeless” children, they are seeking to have better facilities for families and more time for prisoners to engage with their offspring.

No you're wrong, I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the people shrieking about lack of housing when this is seemingly a bigger problem- yet it is more than clear who is at fault here. The government don't make anyone commit a crime and in Ireland, if someone is in prison, they must have done something REALLY wrong in order to get there.

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Personally I think it’s wrong, and will simply lead to recidivist male criminals knocking up as many different girls as they can so they get more “rights” and entitlements in prison, I think the better solution is to discourage repeat criminals by enforcing a system whereby if you break the rules of the state you can’t qualify for benefits of the state.... hit criminals where it hurts....in their pockets.

Agree with this.

InTheShadows

More bashing of poor people to make up for the government's failings. Yawn.

Lillyfae

InTheShadows wrote: »

More bashing of poor people to make up for the government's failings. Yawn.

More nonsensical responses and wilful ignorance of anti social behaviour and crime in order to bash the government. Double yawn.

tayto lover

What is the point or purpose of this data?
More liberal bullshyt imo.

Many of the children of these criminals are better off with them locked up.
They don’t care about their children anyway.

riffmongous

So homeless children aren't an issue because there are also other children with problems?

Lillyfae

riffmongous wrote: »

So homeless children aren't an issue because there are also other children with problems?

No, but ignoring what the cause of the problem in all cases is. There is a section of society that will do anything, including having more children or hiding behind their children, in order to escape taking responsibility for their own shortcomings or being accountable to anyone, and rather than being called out for this they are rewarded.

tayto lover wrote: »

They don’t care about their children anyway.

This is the exact problem.

InTheShadows

I've heard it all now. So parents of kids who are homeless because of FG's utter ineptness in regards to housing don't care about their children??

Lillyfae

InTheShadows wrote: »

I've heard it all now. So parents of kids who are homeless because of FG's utter ineptness in regards to housing don't care about their children??

No, people who refuse to budge because of "entitlements" and pull such stunts as having 7 children with no means to support them EVEN WHILE THEY'RE HOMELESS, pretending to not have a relationship with the father of the children so as to get more money as a single parent while he comes and goes as he pleases, showing up to police stations declaring yourself and your children as having nowhere to go when accommodation has been offered but in an area other than you've requested- those people don't care about their children

James Brown

Lillyfae wrote: »

Won't somebody think of the homeless children? Because obviously their parents are doing more than even non homeless children's parents :rolleyes:. No child should be homeless. No child should have a parent in prison. However, these things do not occur in a vacuum- people who are homeless or likely to be also have the ability to not have children while they are waiting for their living situation to stabilise. People who are in prison have the same ability, plus the ability to not commit crime- superhuman really.

The parents don't care about these children's wellbeing, physical, social, material, whatsoever- they are in essence being raised by the taxpayer in a financial sense but the taxpayer is the absentee parent- the only say over how these poor children are raised is by the very people who just don't have any interest in doing so.

Lillyfae wrote: »

No, people who refuse to budge because of "entitlements" and pull such stunts as having 7 children with no means to support them EVEN WHILE THEY'RE HOMELESS, pretending to not have a relationship with the father of the children so as to get more money as a single parent while he comes and goes as he pleases, showing up to police stations declaring yourself and your children as having nowhere to go when accommodation has been offered but in an area other than you've requested- those people don't care about their children

Ah, 'they've no one to blame but themselves and we're sick of do gooders'. Got it. A dole bashing thread disguised as social commentary

tayto lover

InTheShadows wrote: »

I've heard it all now. So parents of kids who are homeless because of FG's utter ineptness in regards to housing don't care about their children??

I think that comment referred to the people in prison.

suicide_circus

Two points

1. The plight of the children of criminals is getting airtime because it disproportionate impacts on the Travelling Community due the the Travelling Community's disproportionate involvement in criminality. Just ask Dr Joyce.

2. We're told that divorce in the case of a dysfunctional marriage is better for the children than the parents staying together. But yet children being seperate from incarcerated criminal parents is problematic.

InTheShadows

Lillyfae wrote: »

No, people who refuse to budge because of "entitlements" and pull such stunts as having 7 children with no means to support them EVEN WHILE THEY'RE HOMELESS, pretending to not have a relationship with the father of the children so as to get more money as a single parent while he comes and goes as he pleases, showing up to police stations declaring yourself and your children as having nowhere to go when accommodation has been offered but in an area other than you've requested- those people don't care about their children

You know every single one of these people of course.

Why are you shouting?

Del2005

InTheShadows wrote: »

I've heard it all now. So parents of kids who are homeless because of FG's utter ineptness in regards to housing don't care about their children??

We've thousands of vacant houses around the country. What we have is a people wanting to live in the middle of the city for next to nothing crisis not a homeless crisis and that's nobodies fault but the people who want to live in the city for next to nothing.

James Brown

Del2005 wrote: »

We've thousands of vacant houses around the country. What we have is a people wanting to live in the middle of the city for next to nothing crisis not a homeless crisis and that's nobodies fault but the people who want to live in the city for next to nothing.

Bollocks.
Have you stats for this?
You get to pick three areas you'd like within your area/council. Dublin City council can't offer you a house in Clare.
This claim is so idiotic you must be joking?

spurious

Del2005 wrote: »

We're already doing this. A kid is a trouble maker in school and they get trips away and other rewards if they don't cause trouble. The kid who does their work and causes no problems doesn't get trips away or other rewards for not causing trouble. So the kids learn from an early age that the more trouble you cause the more free stuff is given to you. Then they see our "justice" system is the same so they start racking up the convictions.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

and you didnt just make this up on the spot.......? Really?

Sadly, this isn't made up.
It used to break my heart to see the plodders who found school difficult but came in day after day ignored, when others came in sporadically, caused trouble every class they were in and then were rewarded if they managed a whole day without trouble/week full of attendance.
Made me sick.

banie01

spurious wrote: »

Sadly, this isn't made up.
It used to break my heart to see the plodders who found school difficult but came in day after day ignored, when others came in sporadically, caused trouble every class they were in and then were rewarded if they managed a whole day without trouble/week full of attendance.
Made me sick.

The intervention schemes and other "supports" that are/were put in place for truants and under age children really is a smack in the face to so many kids who struggle hard in school but keep trying.

Easier to break a few windows, try a little shoplifting and other low level criminality and get rewarded with a case worker, weekly cinema and sport trips, or subsidised i.e completely free club memberships.

It really highlights the sense of unfairness to a child when doing the right thing is unrewarded, whilst a child in the exact same circumstances apart from their criminal behaviour is rewarded.

James Brown

spurious wrote: »

Sadly, this isn't made up.
It used to break my heart to see the plodders who found school difficult but came in day after day ignored, when others came in sporadically, caused trouble every class they were in and then were rewarded if they managed a whole day without trouble/week full of attendance.
Made me sick.

So should we be blaming the trouble maker kids or the educators?

banie01

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So should we be blaming the trouble maker kids or the educators?

It's not the educators that push those schemes, Garda early intervention services and referral programmes, Tusla and the probation services all carry the can for this particular use of resources band reward of poor behaviour and habit.

No school even if Deis areas have the funds to be wasting on rewards and handholding IMO, but I'm sure one of the education employed posters can weigh with firmer detail on this one.

James Brown

banie01 wrote: »

It's not the educators that push those schemes, Garda early intervention services and referral programmes, Tusla and the probation services all carry the can for this particular use of resources band reward of poor behaviour and habit.

No school even if Deis areas have the funds to be wasting on rewards and handholding IMO, but I'm sure one of the education employed posters can weigh with firmer detail on this one.

I meant the education policy folk not teachers.

Lillyfae

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I meant the education policy folk not teachers.

But why can't we blame their parents??

James Brown

Lillyfae wrote: »

But why can't we blame their parents??

Because the parents aren't the ones organising trips as bribes?