The hand pass over the bar

lawred2

Is there any appetite in GAA circles for striking out the hand pass over the bar as a score?

It's a kop out for me and I hate seeing it...

I have no issue with fisting or palming the ball for a score but running with the ball and then hand passing it over leaves me cold.

North of 32

If a player has worked themselves into a scoring position they should take whatever decision they think is best. And a near-guaranteed point is almost always the right decision in my estimation.

Forge83

North of 32 wrote: »

If a player has worked themselves into a scoring position they should take whatever decision they think is best. And a near-guaranteed point is almost always the right decision in my estimation.

But it’s Football.....not handball.
Would agree with the OP. Enough hand passing in the game, should be removed as a scoring option for points.

Euphoriasean

North of 32 wrote: »

If a player has worked themselves into a scoring position they should take whatever decision they think is best. And a near-guaranteed point is almost always the right decision in my estimation.

Don't think that really answers the OP question,they on about a rule change. Personally dislike both the handpass and the fist pass over the bar. Each to their own though.

MayoAreMagic

Forge83 wrote: »

But it’s Football.....not handball.
Would agree with the OP. Enough hand passing in the game, should be removed as a scoring option for points.

Well going on that rationale, they shouldn't be able to use their hands at all.
There are instances where the only option is a fist over the bar. I dont see why people hate it so much.
If anything needs fine tuning it is the whole kickouts scenario. I dont think loading up one half so a team cant kick the ball out is really a good direction to be going in for the sport. When a team scores there should be some restart offered to the other team, similar to how they kick off again in soccer.

lawred2

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well going on that rationale, they shouldn't be able to use their hands at all.
There are instances where the only option is a fist over the bar. I dont see why people hate it so much.

It's the 'only option' because it's available as an option... Lads running down blind alleys only to throw it over the bar...

No idea where you're going with the kick out stuff

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well going on that rationale, they shouldn't be able to use their hands at all.
There are instances where the only option is a fist over the bar. I dont see why people hate it so much.





If anything needs fine tuning it is the whole kickouts scenario. I dont think loading up one half so a team cant kick the ball out is really a good direction to be going in for the sport. When a team scores there should be some restart offered to the other team, similar to how they kick off again in soccer.

Agree with you on the hand pass scores.

On the kick outs, think you are way off.

threeball

lawred2 wrote: »

It's the 'only option' because it's available as an option... Lads running down blind alleys only to throw it over the bar...

No idea where you're going with the kick out stuff

Exactly, good defending of forcing an attacker into a bad position isn't rewarded. The attacker has enough options to offload the ball either by hand or foot to a team mate rather than hand passing over the bar. i think the hand passed score should be done away with completely like it was in hurling. Hurling is a better spectacle for it and football would be too. It also would make attackers take on goal chances more often which would add to the excitement.

willabur

I'd happily get rid of it

I played a 7 aside indoor tournament in Canada a few years ago and they made a handpass worth 2 points. It turned the game into a horrible basketball style game where kicking was almost penalised. So taking out the value of the handpass over the bar would encourage more kicking for scores and more risktaking for going for goals. With so many managers risk averse I would say it would dramatically drop the number of goals we see in the game.

robbiezero

Would love to see the handpass point got rid of. No skill at all in it and very hard to defend.
Same for the palmed goal. Almost like a volleyball spike at this stage.

Insect Overlord

robbiezero wrote: »

Would love to see the handpass point got rid of. No skill at all in it and very hard to defend.
Same for the palmed goal. Almost like a volleyball spike at this stage.

"No skill at all" is very harsh. Try it yourself sometime when you're running at an angle to goal, under pressure from a fullback line, and see how you get on.

robbiezero

Insect Overlord wrote: »

"No skill at all" is very harsh. Try it yourself sometime when you're running at an angle to goal, under pressure from a fullback line, and see how you get on.

Done it many times. No skill is harsh, agreed. A lot less skill and its a poor spectacle compared to a kicked point and is also a bit unfair on the defenders as its really hard to stop even if you have defended well.

jmayo

There are bigger issues out the field that need to be addressed.

blanch152

When people are continuously complaining about packed defences ruining the game, someone else wants to stop something that helps beat a packed defence.

lawred2

blanch152 wrote: »

When people are continuously complaining about packed defences ruining the game, someone else wants to stop something that helps beat a packed defence.

how do you work that out?

you might appreciate throwing the ball over people's heads as a skill - but I don't

As for beating a packed defense? Don't follow - how does running right into the middle of a packed defense until you're about 7/8 yards out undo the packed defense?

Surely it would be easier to kick it over their heads from 35 yards than run into the heart of them? That would require skill though.

BIGT4464

robbiezero wrote: »

Would love to see the handpass point got rid of. No skill at all in it and very hard to defend.
Same for the palmed goal. Almost like a volleyball spike at this stage.

Totally agree, the two open palmed directional throw to the net is my pet hate. Should be a closed fist only.

threeball

BIGT4464 wrote: »

Totally agree, the two open palmed directional throw to the net is my pet hate. Should be a closed fist only.

Should be banned completely. Take away a lot of square ball controversy too.

threeball

blanch152 wrote: »

When people are continuously complaining about packed defences ruining the game, someone else wants to stop something that helps beat a packed defence.

It encourages packed defences as you need more guys close to the goal to prevent the piggy in the middle game of handpassing through defences and popping it over the bar.

PARlance

Can never really get the hate for the fisted point and love seeing a goal scored with the hand from a long ball.... but a short hand pass to a palmed goal...I wouldn't shed a tear if that was ruled out.

threeball

PARlance wrote: »

Can never really get the hate for the fisted point and love seeing a goal scored with the hand from a long ball.... but a short hand pass to a palmed goal...I wouldn't shed a tear if that was ruled out.

I'd have time for a fisted goal from a kick pass. The rest should be consigned to history.

lawred2

PARlance wrote: »

Can never really get the hate for the fisted point and love seeing a goal scored with the hand from a long ball.... but a short hand pass to a palmed goal...I wouldn't shed a tear if that was ruled out.

I've no issue with the fisted goal... Just the hand pass over the bar.

Always Tired

It has to be struck by the hand doesn't it? I know there is a bit of leeway but as long as you can't blatantly throw it then as long as it goes over the bar it should be a point.

There's already enough of a lack of scoring, nearly every match you see at least one team going for an age without a point from play. Even after being gifted a one man advantage Kerry went at least ten minutes into the second half before scoring from play, every point was from a free.

Taking away scoring plays isn't going to help a game that's already bordering on unwatchable.

threeball

Always Tired wrote: »

It has to be struck by the hand doesn't it? I know there is a bit of leeway but as long as you can't blatantly throw it then as long as it goes over the bar it should be a point.

There's already enough of a lack of scoring, nearly every match you see at least one team going for an age without a point from play. Even after being gifted a one man advantage Kerry went at least ten minutes into the second half before scoring from play, every point was from a free.

Taking away scoring plays isn't going to help a game that's already bordering on unwatchable.

Scoring averages are the highest they've ever been so don't know where you're getting the lack of scoring idea.

Bonniedog

Fisted points were actually a lot more common in the 50s and 60s. Look at the old film. I think the great Galway teams of both decades used it to particular effect.

As someone else said it is way of beating a wall of defenders. Rules should never favour negativity.

Game is opening up as yesterday's final and other games proven. Can't think of any out and out negative team that even looked like making the eights.

MayoAreMagic

lawred2 wrote: »

It's the 'only option' because it's available as an option... Lads running down blind alleys only to throw it over the bar...

No idea where you're going with the kick out stuff

But it isnt a blind alley when you can get to the point where you can fist it over...

Re the kickout stuff, well it isnt what the restart was intended to be, where open play was to be restarted and the game recommence, rather than the game revolving around the kickout itself. But teams have stumbled onto a kind of glitch in the system, where whenever the ball goes dead from a free for example, they can make it virtually impossible for 95% of goalkeepers to find a man from the restart even a couple of times. It is basically just jumped up set piece play - stoke city-esque tactics on steroids. The reward is probably too great and the ask put on the goalkeepers too harsh. That is why id look to reduce the effectiveness of this type of play. Just thought id explain what i meant, i dont want to derail the thread...

harpsman

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But it isnt a blind alley when you can get to the point where you can fist it over...

Re the kickout stuff, well it isnt what the restart was intended to be, where open play was to be restarted and the game recommence, rather than the game revolving around the kickout itself. But teams have stumbled onto a kind of glitch in the system, where whenever the ball goes dead from a free for example, they can make it virtually impossible for 95% of goalkeepers to find a man from the restart even a couple of times. It is basically just jumped up set piece play - stoke city-esque tactics on steroids. The reward is probably too great and the ask put on the goalkeepers too harsh. That is why id look to reduce the effectiveness of this type of play. Just thought id explain what i meant, i dont want to derail the thread...

If anything it makes kick outs exactly what was intended and how it was for 100 years before the short kick out or picking out a man on the run, which only started with Cluxton.

When the opposing team press up the goalkeeper has to lump it out in the general direction of a good fielder and let them fight it out there, exactly what every kick out used to be.

Would love to see the hand pass point abolished-theyre so boring,even the crowd reaction is very flat after one, compared to a kicked point; would rather see the attacker shoot, would lead to more goals as well. If it means players arent able to throw the ball over the bar from the endline then I'll not miss that.

Also agree on the volleyball spike into the net-maybe if you receive a handpass you cant score a goal with open palm.

Hammer Archer

I remember 10 years ago, David Bray scored an exceptional fisted point against Mayo in the All Ireland quarter final:
https://youtu.be/rUQxd8N9FsM?t=688

To this day, I've no idea how he hit it so hard.

flasher0030

Hammer Archer wrote: »

I remember 10 years ago, David Bray scored an exceptional fisted point against Mayo in the All Ireland quarter final:
https://youtu.be/rUQxd8N9FsM?t=688

To this day, I've no idea how he hit it so hard.

Wow. I wouldn't kick it that far. Some piece of skill.

Strumms

North of 32 wrote: »

If a player has worked themselves into a scoring position they should take whatever decision they think is best. And a near-guaranteed point is almost always the right decision in my estimation.

This 100%. The people coming out with the argument “ ahhh but it’s ‘football’ ”. I’d say to them then if they’d advocate banning players having the ability to field the ball, hand pass the ball ? Neanderthal stuff, using ones hands and the ability to score with them has been an important facet of the game for centuries, it should and WILL continue despite the nonsense posted to the contrary.

elefant

The only handpass I'd like to see banned is the handpass directly back to the goalkeeper after receiving a kickout.

Tomw86

I don't understand how people would want to get rid of this.

Using the same argument with regards to the use of the hands, surely the ''throw-in'' is very anti-football too as it's contested and won using only the hands, as are most long kick-outs.

Silly argument.

Tomw86

elefant wrote: »

The only handpass I'd like to see banned is the handpass directly back to the goalkeeper after receiving a kickout.

Can see a case for this alright.

Tomw86

:rolleyes:

Forge83 wrote: »

But it’s Football.....not handball.
Would agree with the OP. Enough hand passing in the game, should be removed as a scoring option for points.

But its not strictly football - the game is started with a throw in FFS

lawred2

Strumms wrote: »

This 100%. The people coming out with the argument “ ahhh but it’s ‘football’ ”. I’d say to them then if they’d advocate banning players having the ability to field the ball, hand pass the ball ? Neanderthal stuff, using ones hands and the ability to score with them has been an important facet of the game for centuries, it should and WILL continue despite the nonsense posted to the contrary.

that's puerile stuff - my only issue is with the use of hand pass for a score.

lawred2

Tomw86 wrote: »

I don't understand how people would want to get rid of this.

Using the same argument with regards to the use of the hands, surely the ''throw-in'' is very anti-football too as it's contested and won using only the hands, as are most long kick-outs.

Silly argument.

indeed silly argument... show me one person who wants or has argued for the removal of hands from the game of Gaelic football.

And then - tell me this - would you like to reintroduce scoring goals with the hand pass? And if not - why not?

Tomw86

lawred2 wrote: »

indeed silly argument... show me one person who wants or has argued for the removal of hands from the game of Gaelic football.

Tell me this - would you like to reintroduce scoring goals with the hand pass?

if not - why not?

Yeah I would actually, I don't think it would be massively different to how they are palmed in now other than the player wouldn't need to pass it

If you get close enough in to goal to do it then that's a skill in itself. Also, keepers should be able to effectively narrow the angle or pounce on this to prevent it...well the good ones anyway.

lawred2

Tomw86 wrote: »

Yeah I would actually, I don't think it would be massively different to how they are palmed in now other than the player wouldn't need to pass it

If you get close enough in to goal to do it then that's a skill in itself. Also, keepers should be able to effectively narrow the angle or pounce on this to prevent it...well the good ones anyway.

Well we're diametrically opposed on scoring with the hands then

But I'd prefer if you didn't try to misrepresent what I'm saying as some sort of attempt to remove handling from the game of football.

"Shur the game starts with a throw in" is a ridiculous counter argument.

shamrock55

Too much handpassing in the game as it is, I'm finding it very hard to watch football these days, it's dull as dishwater watching lads walking around handpassing to each other while the other team stands looking at them

Tomw86

lawred2 wrote: »

Well we're diametrically opposed on scoring with the hands then

But I'd prefer if you didn't try to misrepresent what I'm saying as some sort of attempt to remove handling from the game of football.

"Shur the game starts with a throw in" is a ridiculous counter argument.

That wasn't actually aimed at you - I know your point was just about the score with the fists. Someone else had pointed out its called football and not handball which is what my point referred to - it's very much a mix of the two.

We will agree to disagree on the scoring with the hands. I think it is what gives Gaelic football an extra layer of uniqueness or skill that most other sports don't have.

Chalk McHugh

I don't particularly like it and wouldn't oppose it getting rid of. Very little skill involved.

threeball

Tomw86 wrote: »

That wasn't actually aimed at you - I know your point was just about the score with the fists. Someone else had pointed out its called football and not handball which is what my point referred to - it's very much a mix of the two.

We will agree to disagree on the scoring with the hands. I think it is what gives Gaelic football an extra layer of uniqueness or skill that most other sports don't have.

They took it out of hurling and the game is immeasurably better for it. Defenders preventing forwards getting in on goal only for the hand to flick it over the shoulder and into the net. It looked like sh1t and had to go.

Same applies to football. It looks terrible, it punishes good defending and reduces the amount of risk players take therefore reducing goal attempts.

nthclare

Oh the good old hand pass score....80's nostalgia

Chalk McHugh

threeball wrote: »

They took it out of hurling and the game is immeasurably better for it. Defenders preventing forwards getting in on goal only for the hand to flick it over the shoulder and into the net. It looked like sh1t and had to go.

Same applies to football. It looks terrible, it punishes good defending and reduces the amount of risk players take therefore reducing goal attempts.

I remember Offaly's hand passed goal v Galway in All Ire final. Was it Johny Flaherty? Absolutely awful to look at and no chance of keeping it out. Surprised there wasn't more hand passed hurling goals back then.

threeball

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

I remember Offaly's hand passed goal v Galway in All Ire final. Was it Johny Flaherty? Absolutely awful to look at and no chance of keeping it out. Surprised there wasn't more hand passed hurling goals back then.

Yes put offaly in front if I remember correctly. One of the most anti climatic goals imaginable.

robbiezero

threeball wrote: »

Yes put offaly in front if I remember correctly. One of the most anti climatic goals imaginable.

I remember we (Tipp) got 2 goals v Cork in 87 to win the Munster replay. All handpassed. Great at the time, but well glad that rule is gone, terrible to score a goal or a point.

Chalk McHugh

robbiezero wrote: »

I remember we (Tipp) got 2 goals v Cork in 87 to win the Munster replay. All handpassed. Great at the time, but well glad that rule is gone, terrible to score a goal or a point.

Doyle and Donie O Connel. Remember it well. I dont remember to many other hand passed goals of importance.

threeball

robbiezero wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

Yes put offaly in front if I remember correctly. One of the most anti climatic goals imaginable.

I remember we (Tipp) got 2 goals v Cork in 87 to win the Munster replay. All handpassed. Great at the time, but well glad that rule is gone, terrible to score a goal or a point.

It would be the same in football. After 2yrs people would wonder how it was ever allowed

robbiezero

threeball wrote: »

It would be the same in football. After 2yrs people would wonder how it was ever allowed

Agreed.
Hurling went to kicked goals for a while after the handpass was disallowed and in
recent years hurling has replaced that with the short grip bat of the ball in front of the body to prevent hooking.

Miley Byrne

I would outlaw it too if I had my way. Also not a fan of the ball being palmed to the net from a handpass across the goalmouth. They should bring in a rule that says (like an earlier poster mentioned) you can't score with the hands/fist if the pass to you is a handpass. That would tidy it up nicely and you could still have goals/points scored after the ball is launched from distance by effectively getting a fist/hand to a high ball into the square