Top tax band - worth it?

Timooo_23

Hey guys. I'm in the UK for the moment and their top tax band is just £500ish
For a decent "performance" car, I think its reasonable.

Is there anyone on here who pays the full whack Irish road tax band? I'm talking about the older €1800 or the newer €2350 per year. I know nobody wants to pay that much.

How does that work with you; What about the car allows you to justify it? If you have a top tax band car now, would paying that much for a couple of years make you think twice about your next cars' tax band when/ if you upgrade?

To my own man-maths justification, for a car I like enough, I could justify €200 a month in tax if I really liked the car, and I owned it outright (ie; not had monthly finance payments on it) Then I could view the tax payments as the equivalent to finance on a new car.

Also, what cars are they? Super exotic sports cars? Luxurious SUVs? Or generally nice cars that you picked up pretty cheap, possibly due to their tax induced depreciation?

Thoughts appreciated!

nedkelly123

Yeah i pay 1809 a year or 511 a quarter .. its not great fun but i think its worthwhile
ive a 911 C4
Whats worth it is the acceleration ,the noise and they way i enjoy my commute to well anywhere

H3llR4iser

Motor Tax is something that's all over the place in different countries - I was gobsmacked when I found out a friend in the US, with a V10 BMW M5, pays something like 200 USD/year.

The problem with the top rates here is that they come into play too "low" in the spectrum - a 20 years old Alfa Romeo V6 3.0L and a Ferrari pay the same 1809 Euro / year. Similarly, I've recently stumbled upon an Audi S5 (not RS5) which somehow ended up in the 2350 Euro/year bracket.

Blackcurrent Lemsip

depends on the car but some are definitely worth it, GTR, 911, Audi RS etc



Anything above 400bhp would be worth it. The noise and acceleration is a drug on its own.


An Audi S5 is certainly not worth it though imo

jim salter

I dunno, my car is 400bhp and is €710/yr...if I was to go to the 2009 version of my car it would be €2350 and to me that wouldn't be worth it (simply because I couldn't afford it)

H3llR4iser

jim salter wrote: »

I dunno, my car is 400bhp and is €710/yr...if I was to go to the 2009 version of my car it would be €2350 and to me that wouldn't be worth it (simply because I couldn't afford it)

That's precisely the issue - mine is 160HP, 4 door saloon and I pay 673...and you can easily find sub-250HP engines which would pay 1809.


I used to think the system was idiotic in Italy, where you pay based on engine power, but it's actually much more clever than anything based on emissions or CC - turns out, cars with similar power tend to be similar in concept; for example at 70-80HP we're talking runabout (Fabia, Fiesta etc), 150HP and whereabouts it's usually a family car or a saloon, 400-500 we're talking sportscars and so on.

jim salter

H3llR4iser wrote: »

That's precisely the issue - mine is 160HP, 4 door saloon and I pay 673...and you can easily find sub-250HP engines which would pay 1809.


I used to think the system was idiotic in Italy, where you pay based on engine power, but it's actually much more clever than anything based on emissions or CC - turns out, cars with similar power tend to be similar in concept; for example at 70-80HP we're talking runabout (Fabia, Fiesta etc), 150HP and whereabouts it's usually a family car or a saloon, 400-500 we're talking sportscars and so on.

I get where you're coming from.

My car is a 4 door saloon that I drive daily, would consider it a 'sports' car (event though is can be classed as) it's definitely not an exotic.

The tax rates (all tax rates) in Ireland are a complete joke. We have a government who do not know how to manage finances and simply use tax as a blunt object.

It's not the tax rates that need to be investigated it's the politicians.

NSAman

RR SVR..US a year $125 and that includes the vanity plate...6.5ltr hemi truck same... was looking at a little sporty drop top, but looked like a pimp in it, that’s a Porsche for ya..:)

hi5

If it's an expensive modern super car you probably can afford the tax easily enough. Where it makes very little sense is cars like the Ford Mustang 5.0 and such like.
Having said that I saw a 141 Dodge Challanger at the weekend, the first thing I thought was nice car the second thing I thought was nearly two and half grand every year to tax it! I gave the guy driving it a thumbs up as he deserved it.

antodeco

Ive a 2.8 BMW Z3, from 1998. I only tax it for 6 months of the year, because it breaks my heart paying the full €1400 per year, for a car that probably does less than 2000 miles a year!

Gumbo

I paid it for a few years on E36 M3, E46 M3 and V8 X5. Spent another few years paying the second highest rate for 530d, 535d. Then spent another few years paying the next rate for 525d, E36 323i and Merc ML270.

Paying 120 now on my i3 and its hard to justify the high rate anymore. Ill leave the thrill driving for the Supermoto

pinktoe

High rate is excessive since cars that fall into that category will use a lot of fuel so the government is getting a fair amount of tax that way.

My Supra which spends months without seeing the road is around €1500 and my XJ with 300bhp is €390 which will easily do 30,000km a year. So obviously them numbers dont add up.

I would be all for abolishing road tax and put a few cents at the pumps. The more you use the more you pay.

jim salter wrote: »

I dunno, my car is 400bhp and is €710/yr...if I was to go to the 2009 version of my car it would be €2350 and to me that wouldn't be worth it (simply because I couldn't afford it)

2L car with 400bhp. Is it an Evo?

H3llR4iser

pinktoe wrote: »

High rate is excessive since cars that fall into that category will use a lot of fuel so the government is getting a fair amount of tax that way.

My Supra which spends months without seeing the road is around €1500 and my XJ with 300bhp is €390 which will easily do 30,000km a year. So obviously them numbers dont add up.

I would be all for abolishing road tax and put a few cents at the pumps. The more you use the more you pay.

2L car with 400bhp. Is it an Evo?

I'm curious too...aren't those limited "artificially" to 280HP to comply with Japanese regulations? You can surely "fix" them to go way above that, of course...:p

pinktoe

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I'm curious too...aren't those limited "artificially" to 280HP to comply with Japanese regulations? You can surely "fix" them to go way above that, of course...:p

Evo 8 Fq models were sold with 300-400bhp from factory.
The 280bhp gentleman's agreement in Japan was abolished.

Not many 2l cars can produce 400bhp. Massive respect to Mitsubishi

Tommyboy40

I've been paying full whack for over 10 years, recently slimming the fleet to 2 x V8's. The tax is something you have to accept, you don't expect 50mpg and you shouldn't expect cheap tax

Timooo_23

Tommyboy40 wrote: »

I've been paying full whack for over 10 years, recently slimming the fleet to 2 x V8's. The tax is something you have to accept, you don't expect 50mpg and you shouldn't expect cheap tax

I have to agree with the just accepting it part, Ireland is a comparatively small country with not too many cars on the roads, so the tax to pay for the road network needs to be high.

It just hurts that it’s THAT high. It’s a pain that liking big engines costs so much, even if you don’t drive them much.

jmreire

pinktoe wrote: »

High rate is excessive since cars that fall into that category will use a lot of fuel so the government is getting a fair amount of tax that way.

My Supra which spends months without seeing the road is around €1500 and my XJ with 300bhp is €390 which will easily do 30,000km a year. So obviously them numbers dont add up.

I would be all for abolishing road tax and put a few cents at the pumps. The more you use the more you pay.


2L car with 400bhp. Is it an Evo?

The Problem is pinktoe,,,,they already do that !!!:mad::mad::mad:

Truckermal

Yes I pay the 1800 now on a Lexus 460 I was paying 1545 on a GS 300 but traded up, it's totally worth it with 3 times the power of your average PCP Sh1tbox and the roar of that V8 plus the unbelievable comfy seats!

H3llR4iser

Tommyboy40 wrote: »

I've been paying full whack for over 10 years, recently slimming the fleet to 2 x V8's. The tax is something you have to accept, you don't expect 50mpg and you shouldn't expect cheap tax

The issue is not "cheap tax", it makes sense that it's higher for a V8 than a Panda. What is quite stupid is to have the 1200 -> 2350 jump between the last two segments: there are bound to be only a few cars in such last band, the number will be ever dwindling AND, on top of that, it doesn't really make much difference for the "green" cause as most super-high-end cars will be week end rides - only very few people will drive a V6/V8/10/12 to work and the shops every day.



I'm fairly sure a well maintained Porsche, driven on Saturday mornings, on a countryside / mountain road, with the windows rolled down to enjoy the...music will put less stuff in the atmosphere than a neglected-until-it-fails-the-NTC 2.0L diesel driven daily, in traffic jams, with the aircon/heating at full blast, on the M50 or N25.



Having the highest rate at around 1500/1600 would make more sense - people wouldn't flock to get themselves sportscars for commuting, the cost of fuel and maintenance would still e prohibitive, but more enthusiast would generate a good extra cash flow for the state - and less cars would be hitting the scrapyard, which is an environmental issue in its own merit.

Gumbo

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I'm curious too...aren't those limited "artificially" to 280HP to comply with Japanese regulations? You can surely "fix" them to go way above that, of course...:p

The old gentleman’s agreement meant the manufacturers officially announced the cars were limited to 276 bhp but in reality they were pushing more. My standard evo 5 ran 299bhp on Westward engineersing rolling road many years ago.

kirving

While it would totally screw me over as I currently pay €200/yr, the only fair way I see it is have it on the fuel.


Less efficient car, you pay more. You drive more, you pay more. A much fairer system than CO2, which the dogs on the street knew was being falsified for years.

Then have a tax credit system for people who commute long distances so that people commuting far distances to Dublin can still eat at the end of the month.

colm_mcm

Truckermal wrote: »

Yes I pay the 1800 now on a Lexus 460 I was paying 1545 on a GS 300 but traded up, it's totally worth it with 3 times the power of your average PCP Sh1tbox and the roar of that V8 plus the unbelievable comfy seats!

Sorry when did this all happen?

Truckermal

colm_mcm wrote: »

Sorry when did this all happen?

About 6 months ago.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110290820&postcount=9147

The GS is on Dutch plates now.

colm_mcm

Congrats.

Midnight_EG

It's only expensive if you pay it, runs just fine without it :pac:

Gumbo

Midnight_EG wrote: »

It's only expensive if you get caught, runs just fine without it :pac:

Fixed your post



God I miss that off the road declaration form

Tommyboy40

kceire wrote: »

Fixed your post



God I miss that off the road declaration form

It really made a difference getting the odd month free

jim salter

pinktoe wrote: »

...




2L car with 400bhp. Is it an Evo?

Yes

jim salter

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I'm curious too...aren't those limited "artificially" to 280HP to comply with Japanese regulations? You can surely "fix" them to go way above that, of course...:p

Yeah, the 'agreement' was 280. Most of the cars were about 300 out of the box (bit like the new Supra, quoted a lower number than most who have dyno'd have shown). Simple mods and easy push it up (relatively easy to map also), internals good for 400 without upgrading.

Tommyboy40

In case anyone's interested in paying big tax, I'm reluctantly selling my 2005 CL500. I've had it 3 years and it's pretty much sorted now with all the usual suspects for these cars replaced. (lower control arms, rear shock, Ac compressor etc) I've been neglecting the others and it's time to rectify that. Car has 119k miles and the usual keyless entry/go and all the toys you expect from a car that costs 195k new

IMG_1784 (1).jpg

roguey

antodeco wrote: »

Ive a 2.8 BMW Z3, from 1998. I only tax it for 6 months of the year, because it breaks my heart paying the full €1400 per year, for a car that probably does less than 2000 miles a year!

Only 9 more years until you can claim classic tax! Hang in there!!

unkel

Paid full whack for nearly a decade on a BMW 735i V8 and then a Porsche 928 5l V8 until I got badly hit by the recession and I had to park the car up. Absolutely worth it for the roar of the engine and the acceleration of the cars alone with all that enjoyable torque from idle a normally breathing large petrol engine brings :cool:

I got mileage allowance for business miles though, which took the sting out of it although paying it up front every year brought a wee tear to my eye

Family car now is an EV with €120 tax. I also have a classic car with €56 tax and my Porsche Boxster. It sees less than 1k km per year, yet it costs €1080 to tax. I had it taxed for the full year ending last month and I took it out maybe a handful of times. So €200 every time I took it for a spin :rolleyes:

That's just ridiculous. I don't want to sell the car as I know I will regret it and the car is a very good one. I've now parked it up, declared it off the road, maybe tax it again for 3 months next summer...

Tommyboy40

unkel wrote: »

Paid full whack for nearly a decade on a BMW 735i V8 and then a Porsche 928 5l V8 until I got badly hit by the recession and I had to park the car up. Absolutely worth it for the roar of the engine and the acceleration of the cars alone with all that enjoyable torque from idle a normally breathing large petrol engine brings :cool:

I got mileage allowance for business miles though, which took the sting out of it although paying it up front every year brought a wee tear to my eye

Family car now is an EV with €120 tax. I also have a classic car with €56 tax and my Porsche Boxster. It sees less than 1k km per year, yet it costs €1080 to tax. I had it taxed for the full year ending last month and I took it out maybe a handful of times. So €200 every time I took it for a spin :rolleyes:

That's just ridiculous. I don't want to sell the car as I know I will regret it and the car is a very good one. I've now parked it up, declared it off the road, maybe tax it again for 3 months next summer...

I know exactly what you mean, every time I hit the start button and it roars to life. I don't think that I could ever go back to not owning a V8. I use mine as a daily driver and have the other declared off the road. Man Maths does work though

H3llR4iser

mmm...what kind of jobs do you guys do? I think i need a career change...:D

Tommyboy40

H3llR4iser wrote: »

mmm...what kind of jobs do you guys do? I think i need a career change...:D

It's not as expensive as you might think. when I bought the CL, it was 11 years old with 70k miles. I knew that I would have to spend some money on it. The only crazy expensive job was replacing the a shock and wheel bearing at €2665. I have a genius indy who replaced the aircon compressor, front pads and did a service for €900. Daily running costs are a little more than an average car but the CL will do 32mpg on motorway runs. My daughter has just bought a new 1.0 Polo and my total cost of the CL over a 3 year period, including the purchase price of the car, was less than the polo. Obviously without fuel. And you get all this:

IMG_1785.jpg

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IMG_1779.jpg

H3llR4iser

Tommyboy40 wrote: »

It's not as expensive as you might think. when I bought the CL, it was 11 years old with 70k miles. I knew that I would have to spend some money on it. The only crazy expensive job was replacing the a shock and wheel bearing at €2665. I have a genius indy who replaced the aircon compressor, front pads and did a service for €900. Daily running costs are a little more than an average car but the CL will do 32mpg on motorway runs. My daughter has just bought a new 1.0 Polo and my total cost of the CL over a 3 year period, including the purchase price of the car, was less than the polo. Obviously without fuel. And you get all this:

IMG_1785.jpg

IMG_1771.jpg

IMG_1779.jpg

Individually, I get you - with the difference in tax taken into account, it's no different from the people who go "oh my god, that must cost a fortune to run!" when they discover my car is actually running on petrol, whereas the actual cost ain't that crazy; also, being an Alfa they figure it "must live in a garage", which again isn't the case - last expensive job was 2000 Euro for the timing chain nearly 7 years ago.


What tells me my income must be meager is the number of people who keep multiple cars :P

Tommyboy40

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Individually, I get you - with the difference in tax taken into account, it's no different from the people who go "oh my god, that must cost a fortune to run!" when they discover my car is actually running on petrol, whereas the actual cost ain't that crazy; also, being an Alfa they figure it "must live in a garage", which again isn't the case - last expensive job was 2000 Euro for the timing chain nearly 7 years ago.


What tells me my income must be meager is the number of people who keep multiple cars :P

Keeping multiple cars is also not crazily expensive (man maths) The SL and the W124 cost €154 and €165 respectively to insure. Servicing is cheap with dealer parts and a good indy. I have kept most cars I've owned for the last 15 years. The CL I bought after a breakup, kind of like women getting a new haircut

rd1izb7lvpuksx

Tommyboy40 wrote: »

Keeping multiple cars is also not crazily expensive (man maths) The SL and the W124 cost €154 and €165 respectively to insure. Servicing is cheap with dealer parts and a good indy. I have kept most cars I've owned for the last 15 years. The CL I bought after a breakup, kind of like women getting a new haircut

I have a couple of (non-performance) cars, a workhorse daily driver and a 4x4 for snow and off-road trips, and it's the insurance that kills me. I get quotes of roughly 10x your premiums quoted there. One of them is off the road now for that reason - and there's no multicar policies in Ireland, despite the fact the I'm the only one who ever drives either, and so they're never on the road at the same time.

H3llR4iser

Chelsea Tight String wrote: »

I have a couple of (non-performance) cars, a workhorse daily driver and a 4x4 for snow and off-road trips, and it's the insurance that kills me. I get quotes of roughly 10x your premiums quoted there. One of them is off the road now for that reason - and there's no multicar policies in Ireland, despite the fact the I'm the only one who ever drives either, and so they're never on the road at the same time.

That would be my issue as well - not to mention that even on my one and only car, a 13 years old saloon with 160hp, so nothing "crazy", I've been regularly paying between 800 and 900 Euro each one of the last 4 years, despite my NCB going up, no penalty points, and having a license for 20+ years. I've even recently exchanged the EU license for an Irish one (had to becasuse it needed to be renewed), was expecting my premium to go down, and nope, quote for renewal is again around 850.



For the multicar...I asked them, and things get ridiculous: one (not very) bright agent, a few years ago, had me in stitches: when I pointed out I am single and have no kids, so technically I can only drive one car at the time unless I discover a way to clone myself, he very seriously replied "what if you have kids in the future?". Sure, all sub-1-year old learn to drive daddy's car first thing :D:D

Tommyboy40

I'm rather lucky with my insurance. I pay €2350 and have the following covered;
2005 Mercedes CL500 includes business cover, step back ncd
142 Alfa Romeo Giulietta 170bhp
2003 Smart For 2 convertible
1996 Mercedes SL500
1996 Mercedes W124 coupe
the 2 older mercs are limited mileage classics.
AXA wanted €2700 for the Smart alone
Aviva wanted the same for the CL

rd1izb7lvpuksx

Tommyboy40 wrote: »

I'm rather lucky with my insurance. I pay €2350 and have the following covered;
2005 Mercedes CL500 includes business cover, step back ncd
142 Alfa Romeo Giulietta 170bhp
2003 Smart For 2 convertible
1996 Mercedes SL500
1996 Mercedes W124 coupe
the 2 older mercs are limited mileage classics.
AXA wanted €2700 for the Smart alone
Aviva wanted the same for the CL

Tommyboy, you've got to spill the beans - how have you managed that deal?

Tommyboy40

I had everything covered with First Ireland for years and was happy enough until I pulled the smart out and tried to get it covered but it was proving difficult as my no claims was already used up on the CL. a neighbour who has a boxter pointed me towards Chubbs Masterpiece policy, available through Sean Barrett Bloodstock in Dun laoighre. The cover is exceptional with each car having an agreed value and fully comprehensive driving other cars. They also sorted my daughter with cover on her first car for €1279, 23 with a provisional licence and a new Polo.
There is a catch however, a friend of ours with a 2015 Ibiza was refused as they only want high value cars, although all mine aren't exactly new.
https://www.chubb.com/uk-en/individuals-families/motor.aspx

tossy

I've paid 1300 hundred odd for 272bhp and 1000 for 180 - would never do it again out of principle, the best thnig to ever happen was taxing cars based on emmisions as it made manufacturers get their finger out and reduce them in higher performance cars, currently paying 570 for around 380-400.

9935452

pinktoe wrote: »

I would be all for abolishing road tax and put a few cents at the pumps. The more you use the more you pay.

That debate keeps popping up .

The problem is it wouldnt be 3 or 4 cent a litre.

It would be between 30 and 50 cent a litre for the government to make the same money that they do out of motor tax .



For me that would be 30 quid more per tank to fill it

unkel

It's only fair, the polluter should pay. And you're right I've done the sums before a few years ago. It's about 30c/l. If that happened I'll be building up my collection of classic cars and youngtimers and I'll drive a different one every day depending on the mood and I wouldn't worry for a second about the €1.70/l petrol in my gas guzzler

teediddlyeye

Can't see the tax on fuel as a good thing.

Firstly, this is Ireland it would result in a masive jump in fuel prices, more than the current motor tax intake and inevitably an annual "registration charge" would eventually morph back into motor tax as has happened before without removing the extra tax on fuel.

Secondly, it would only benefit a very tiny proportion of cars mainly 20-30 year old large engined that are stuck in limbo of high tax low value. It would penalize everything that would be on a low tax rate as is. Bare in mind too that the classic rate of 56 would vanish and then anyone with a car over 30 would have to suck up much more expensive fuel without the benefit of reduced tax! A weekend spin in a classic v8 would be much more expensive.

Lastly, don't worry about it. It's a long way away but eventually high cc rates will effectively cease to exist as everything pre 08 will become classic.

I'd be pretty p1ssed off if I'd something like an early ls400 waiting for the 56 tax and then someone decides to scrap it in favour of an extra 30/40 cent on fuel!

Wishbone Ash

teediddlyeye wrote: »

...Secondly, it would only benefit a very tiny proportion of cars...

It would benefit those of use who do little mileage. My car is parked up 6 days a week yet I pay the same motor tax as the polluters who are using their car daily. How is that fair?

teediddlyeye

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It would benefit those of use who do little mileage. My car is parked up 6 days a week yet I pay the same motor tax as the polluters who are using their car daily. How is that fair?

Correct it would benefit those who do little milage but only if they currently have a large motor tax bill, otherwise there's no benefit and that's a very small proportion of cars.

If your car is parked up 6 days a week your still paying a lot less on currently over taxed fuel anyway. You're still paying less than a heavy polluter.

unkel

teediddlyeye wrote: »

Correct it would benefit those who do little milage

The person that pollutes very little? Of course it should benefit them. The heavy polluter should pay a lot more than they are paying today. No doubt that's coming one way or the other.

Supergurrier

Max tax is worth it if it's a special car that won't chuck big bills. Max tax 15-20mpg and big bills gets old quick

Dravokivich

Kevin Irving wrote: »

While it would totally screw me over as I currently pay €200/yr, the only fair way I see it is have it on the fuel.


Less efficient car, you pay more. You drive more, you pay more. A much fairer system than CO2, which the dogs on the street knew was being falsified for years.

Then have a tax credit system for people who commute long distances so that people commuting far distances to Dublin can still eat at the end of the month.

I have a relative with an address in east clare. Nice handy tax credit there.