North Korea

99problems1

Has anyone been to North Korea?

How much does it cost? What do you recommend?

Ponster

I'd be interested if anyone replies. You sure that you mean North Korea? AFAIK you can only go as part of an organised tour. You don't get to hire a car and choose what hotels to stay in and where to eat.

Wanderer78

Be a very interesting place to go to, Henry rollins has some very interesting stories from there

99problems1

Ponster wrote: »

I'd be interested if anyone replies. You sure that you mean North Korea? AFAIK you can only go as part of an organised tour. You don't get to hire a car and choose what hotels to stay in and where to eat.

Yes I mean that North Korea.

I know it's only organised tours - there's a few I found through google but I can't really make out what tour is good. Koryo tours for example have a budget tour, 4 days for 800 euros (can upgrade to flights) but not sure on the full details, like I think the price only includes to and from Beijing?

I'm not really interested in run of the mill places.

antix80

I wouldn't see the appeal. I'm sure tours run from China. So price a flight to China and then price the tour to North Korea.
Just a word of warning but you are ineligible for US ESTA visa waiver if you travel to North Korea. This can be a nuisance if visiting the US or have a connecting flight through the US. You'd have to apply for a visa.

Berserker

Looked into going to the DPRK (North Korea) a few years ago. The cost and complications with visa applications after the visit turned us off. There are plenty of tour companies which run trips from China. You can fly into Pyongyang or get an overnight train in. You are monitored by state reps 24/7 while you are in Pyongyang and a lot of people say that the whole tour feels artificial.

grimm2005

Looked at it myself also but never really considered it in reality. The huge costs involved along with how tightly controlled it is and having to be ultra careful about what you say and do during the time there would leave me slightly on edge and with all things considered it sounds a bit miserable and not much of a holiday.

Could do a hell of a lot more for the cost involved. I think the only way I'd do it is if money were no object and would be more out of morbid curiosity than anything else. I didn't know about the ESTA implications also, would probably rule it out entirely based on that tbh.

johnire

The other thing to remember too is that run of the mill travel insurance will not cover you for a trip to North Korea. You have to source a specialist policy and it’s very expensive.

nsa0bupkd3948x

antix80 wrote: »

Just a word of warning but you are ineligible for US ESTA visa waiver if you travel to North Korea. This can be a nuisance if visiting the US or have a connecting flight through the US. You'd have to apply for a visa.

No you're not. You can use ESTA after visiting North Korea.

antix80

Bryant Calm Saw wrote: »

No you're not. You can use ESTA after visiting North Korea.

Wrong. It was changed recently.

Berserker

A Welsh youtuber named Simon Wilson is travelling through NK as we speak OP. Posted his first video, the overnight train, tonight.

antix80

Mr.S wrote: »

10 year multi-entry tourist is a doddle to get and just requires a visit to the embassy. Extra questions for sure at the boarder, but I wouldn't put that off visiting if you want to.

There's a reason people might not want to apply for a visa.. Like if you've a few convictions and you're afraid someone cranky in the embassy is having a bad day and will refuse a visa or only grant a shorter visa. I noticed the wording on the esta application now only refers to serious crimes rather than the older wording

Obv admittance is still up to immigration at the border but one less hurdle.

nsa0bupkd3948x

antix80 wrote: »

Wrong. It was changed recently.

Apologies you're right. Looks like not all consulates have updated their sites yet. https://nl.usembassy.gov/visas/visa-waiver-program/

GooglePlus

I defintely see the appeal but different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Even though you'd only see the NK they want you to see, it would be very interesting to see their attempt at the illusion in persion.

99problems1

GooglePlus wrote: »

I defintely see the appeal but different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Even though you'd only see the NK they want you to see, it would be very interesting to see their attempt at the illusion in persion.

I have heard from other people they think it's much different to how it's portrayed.

killbillvol2

I was there in 2015. Travelled with Young Pioneer Tours from Beijing. They were a lot cheaper than some of the others but covered pretty much the same ground.

It was fascinating in many ways and does give you an insight to some extent. Your itinerary is totally controlled and you'll have two Korean guides with you at all times. There's a bit of interaction with locals (I got a haircut, for example) but they're quite reticent. A girl I spoke to at a big event had good English but stuck to the topics of work and where I was from. As you get to know the guides they open up quite a bit. They're fascinated by Irish history (Nirth/South etc.).

Food was excellent everywhere but I'm sure the locals weren't eating as well. The roads are largely deserted when you get away from Pyongyang to the east or north. There are no fat people.

There's certainly some element of show for the small number of foreign visitors but it's well worth a look if you're curious about it.

The most interesting thing I took from it was that they don't acknowledge in any way that the Chinese played a role in the war. Their version is pretty much the same as we know with the minor matter of not mentioning the existence of a huge Chinese army.

As to ESTA, not something that concerns me. There's nothing on your passport to say you entered DPRK though. I'll have a look at my old passport later and see if the Chinese stamps would give you away (I travelled in and out by train).

Credit Checker Moose

killbillvol2 wrote: »

As to ESTA, not something that concerns me. There's nothing on your passport to say you entered DPRK though. I'll have a look at my old passport later and see if the Chinese stamps would give you away (I travelled in and out by train).

Unless the US agent can read Chinese I think you are pretty safe.


It is people posting about the DPRK on Facebook etc that alerts the US to their visit.

antix80

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

It is people posting about the DPRK on Facebook etc that alerts the US to their visit.

It's part of the ESTA or visa application to answer these questions. That's what alerts US authorities.

Credit Checker Moose

You are very naive if you think that people who simply answer yes is the only way the US finds out about unauthorised travel.

In any event if a person was stupid enough to tick no, the US can find out usually by trawling social media. It is a risk that some people take.

antix80

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

You are very naive if you think that people who simply answer yes is the only way the US finds out about unauthorised travel.

In any event if a person was stupid enough to tick no, the US can find out usually by trawling social media. It is a risk that some people take.

Umm.. I'm not naive at all. You're the one who said "Unless the US agent can read Chinese I think you are pretty safe. It is people posting about the DPRK on Facebook etc that alerts the US to their visit."

It may not have been your intention when writing that, but it seemed to condone lying on an esta application to avoid applying for a visa. Can see now it wasn't your intention.

skallywag

I have been in Seoul and also pretty close to the border on the Chinese side, but I must admit I would have no interest whatsoever in going into North Korea.

As mentioned already your tour is going to be completely orchestrated and you will not get to see what life is really like there at all. You would be pretty much on edge nearly constantly as well (well I would be anyway) as these guys are a complete law unto themselves and liable to take offence etc. and something which you may find innocuous. If you did manage to get into any type of issues there you could easily end up in deep water, where nobody whosoever would be able to help you.

I would seriously avoid it.

Wanderer78

skallywag wrote:

I would seriously avoid it.

I'd imagine the majority of western tourists have been absolutely fine in nk, many have even written about it, I'd imagine the place is very interesting, and well worth seeing, even if it's orchestrated, go for it op

MadYaker

They don’t lock up foreigners for no reason you’d have to do something really stupid like that American guy who tried to take home a flag or whatever it was. It would definitely be interesting even it’s all totally government controlled. But considering the costs involved and the other things you could do for the money for me it wouldn’t be worth it. I also go to the US every few years and I don’t want any complications. I visited Russia and Ukraine a few years ago and subsequently got a bit a grilling from immigration officials when traveling to the US a few months later.

Berserker

skallywag wrote: »

I have been in Seoul and also pretty close to the border on the Chinese side, but I must admit I would have no interest whatsoever in going into North Korea.

Did you go on any of the South Korean tours to the DMZ?

skallywag

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...I'd imagine the place is very interesting, and well worth seeing, even if it's orchestrated...

For me at least that fact that it is orchestrated would take away any real interest in it. For sure it would be fascinating to see how people really live there, or how they interact, but you are just going to see a show for the bulk of the trip. If I was going to the effort of such a journey I think I would take much pleasure from traveling about without a chaperone in some of China's remote areas, etc.

Wanderer78

skallywag wrote: »

For me at least that fact that it is orchestrated would take away any real interest in it. For sure it would be fascinating to see how people really live there, or how they interact, but you are just going to see a show for the bulk of the trip. If I was going to the effort of such a journey I think I would take much pleasure from traveling about without a chaperone in some of China's remote areas, etc.

unfortunately this is the current situation with nk, it may never change, but from what ive heard, its still an interesting place, it would be great of course to see how people truly are living, id imagine it isnt great, but...

skallywag

Berserker wrote: »

Did you go on any of the South Korean tours to the DMZ?

Unfortunately not.

It was top of my to-do list, but as I was there on a business trip just for a couple of days I needed to dance to the tune of my South Korean host who was taking care of me in the evenings, etc. I asked him could we go to the DMZ and he gave me a very clear no. I see since that you can indeed to there on various tours etc but I guess he either just did not fancy it himself or just did not want to go the effort, etc.

RebelButtMunch

99problems1 wrote: »

I would ask why anyone would want to go to Spain and lie on a beach, drink corona and read a book for a week...

North Korea is one of the most fascinating places in my eyes considering the situation there. Censorship, fake portrayal of life there etc, repressed people.

You could, but come on...there's a vast difference between those two things.

Would you subsidize a place where animals are treated cruelly? I'm guessing most people would not.

Somehow it's ok to let our fascination and bucket list fulfillment trump this?

Edit https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/oct/08/north-korean-tourism-ethics
Make sure you take in a performance while your there;
"“We’d had a performance by kids from a sort of state theatre school. I assumed the ones we met were about six or seven. It turned out they were 10 or older. Even as kids of the elite they’d been stunted by the famine” – which ravaged the country in the 1990s."

"“Tourists are used as propaganda,” says Hyeonseo. “They are required to bow to the large statue of our first dictator, Kim Il-sung”,and these images are used by “propagandists to show North Koreans that foreigners come from all over the world to pay homage to the Dear Leader.”"

If you're happy essentially being part of the machine that forces people to be used as propaganda, then by all means Bon-Voyage

MadYaker

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

You could, but come on...there's a vast difference between those two things.

Would you subsidize a place where animals are treated cruelly? I'm guessing most people would not.

Somehow it's ok to let our fascination and bucket list fulfillment trump this?

Edit https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/oct/08/north-korean-tourism-ethics
Make sure you take in a performance while your there;
"“We’d had a performance by kids from a sort of state theatre school. I assumed the ones we met were about six or seven. It turned out they were 10 or older. Even as kids of the elite they’d been stunted by the famine” – which ravaged the country in the 1990s."

"“Tourists are used as propaganda,” says Hyeonseo. “They are required to bow to the large statue of our first dictator, Kim Il-sung”,and these images are used by “propagandists to show North Koreans that foreigners come from all over the world to pay homage to the Dear Leader.”"

If you're happy essentially being part of the machine that forces people to be used as propaganda, then by all means Bon-Voyage

So if I choose not to go will the people of North Korea suddenly be freed? The situation is what it is and as long as China is propping up the regime nothing will change. Following that logic we shouldn’t visit China either as it’s their life support that’s keeping the country as is.

skallywag

99problems1 wrote: »

North Korea is one of the most fascinating places in my eyes considering the situation there. Censorship, fake portrayal of life there etc, repressed people.

I agree with you completely, but the problem that I would have is that you are not going to get a chance to find anyone who is going to discuss openly with you, or get the chance to see how they really live there. It is simply just not going to happen. If you are satisfied with viewing the charade which will be put on then fine, but for me at least I would much rather travel alone to different parts of China, e.g. Beijing, some major industrial cities, country villages etc., where at least one will get the chance to encounter much more real life situations, without the need of a chaperone, albeit that folk will of course be somewhat guarded in what they say to you.

I had the chance to do so myself and really enjoyed it.

99problems1

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

You could, but come on...there's a vast difference between those two things.

Would you subsidize a place where animals are treated cruelly? I'm guessing most people would not.

Somehow it's ok to let our fascination and bucket list fulfillment trump this?

Edit https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/oct/08/north-korean-tourism-ethics
Make sure you take in a performance while your there;
"“We’d had a performance by kids from a sort of state theatre school. I assumed the ones we met were about six or seven. It turned out they were 10 or older. Even as kids of the elite they’d been stunted by the famine” – which ravaged the country in the 1990s."

"“Tourists are used as propaganda,” says Hyeonseo. “They are required to bow to the large statue of our first dictator, Kim Il-sung”,and these images are used by “propagandists to show North Koreans that foreigners come from all over the world to pay homage to the Dear Leader.”"

If you're happy essentially being part of the machine that forces people to be used as propaganda, then by all means Bon-Voyage

Have you ever looked up the controversy around Nestle?

99problems1

skallywag wrote: »

I agree with you completely, but the problem that I would have is that you are not going to get a chance to find anyone who is going to discuss openly with you, or get the chance to see how they really live there. It is simply just not going to happen. If you are satisfied with viewing the charade which will be put on then fine, but for me at least I would much rather travel alone to different parts of China, e.g. Beijing, some major industrial cities, country villages etc., where at least one will get the chance to encounter much more real life situations, without the need of a chaperone, albeit that folk will of course be somewhat guarded in what they say to you.

I had the chance to do so myself and really enjoyed it.

But that's the fascination - that the world you see is completely fake.

I have read from some that it would be impossible to fake though, how can you fake massive shopping centres for example?

RebelButtMunch

99problems1 wrote: »

Have you ever looked up the controversy around Nestle?

What's that got to do with North Korea?

RebelButtMunch

MadYaker wrote: »

So if I choose not to go will the people of North Korea suddenly be freed? The situation is what it is and as long as China is propping up the regime nothing will change. Following that logic we shouldn’t visit China either as it’s their life support that’s keeping the country as is.

You can keep following the logic where ever you want. I didn't say anywhere that you'd somehow free the people by not going.

You should examine your conscience and see if it lets you subsidize this cruel regime, financially and in other ways (e.g propaganda) to satisfy your curiosity.

MadYaker

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

You can keep following the logic where ever you want. I didn't say anywhere that you'd somehow free the people by not going.

You should examine your conscience and see if it lets you subsidize this cruel regime, financially and in other ways (e.g propaganda) to satisfy your curiosity.

I’d argue that exposure to westerners would actually help as much of the governments propaganda relies on demonizing westerners from the US and Europe etc.

They can manufacture photos of westerners bowing to statues if they want to, they don’t need it to actually happen.

Ponster

Travel forum folks, not politics. Please try to address OPs question.

99problems1

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

What's that got to do with North Korea?

You didn't answer my question.

Munsterbhoy

I was following Alek Sigley s twitter page before he was deported back to Australia. Some Interesting pics from his experience there. Not sure if it was censored but gave a good outlook on life there..

nsa0bupkd3948x

skallywag wrote: »

I agree with you completely, but the problem that I would have is that you are not going to get a chance to find anyone who is going to discuss openly with you, or get the chance to see how they really live there. It is simply just not going to happen.

Dunno about that. When I was there they were very open towards the end about there feelings towards the regime.

skallywag

Bryant Calm Saw wrote: »

Dunno about that. When I was there they were very open towards the end about there feelings towards the regime.

OK, fair enough.

Did you get a chance to speak to locals directly without being within earshot of a chaperone?

nsa0bupkd3948x

skallywag wrote: »

OK, fair enough.

Did you get a chance to speak to locals directly without being within earshot of a chaperone?

Yes.

skallywag

Bryant Calm Saw wrote: »

Yes.

Did you speak via a translator or do you speak korean?

nsa0bupkd3948x

skallywag wrote: »

Did you speak via a translator or do you speak korean?

A lot in Pyonyang speak English. There where some Chinese on the tour that spoke Korean to translate but preferred to speak directly.

skallywag

Bryant Calm Saw wrote: »

A lot in Pyonyang speak English.

That is very interesting and I would not have expected that.

In South Korea English is generally not spoken at all from what I experienced at least, and I found it very hard to strike up a conversation with most people.

This included those working in very advanced technical roles inside several different Samsung design centers which I visited, which surprised me, as the high end techies are usually very competent in English.

killbillvol2

Bryant Calm Saw wrote: »

A lot in Pyonyang speak English. There where some Chinese on the tour that spoke Korean to translate but preferred to speak directly.

Where did you meet all these people who spoke English?

nsa0bupkd3948x

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Where did you meet all these people who spoke English?

Can't remember the name of the square but it was a national holiday so everyone was out dancing. Got to walk around a fair bit and struck up some conversations but there it was all pretty fake.

On the underground again but was very boring.

On the train from Dandong got abuse from one lad cause NK have been in world cup more recently than Ireland.

Obviously the most interesting was with your guide since we spent the most time together so was able to get her to open up more.

Mantis Toboggan

Check out Simon Wilson in YouTube, he's there currently.

Whatsisname

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Check out Simon Wilson in YouTube, he's there currently.

Was just about to post this too. Started watching Simon recently and he's great, such an underrated youtuber, really enjoyed his North Korea series.

How empty everything seemed to be is so eerie, almost feels like it's straight out of a horror movie.

Berserker

Whatsisname wrote: »

Was just about to post this too. Started watching Simon recently and he's great, such an underrated youtuber, really enjoyed his North Korea series.

He has some great content. I'm not a fan of the Maccies 'trick' though. Don't like to see that kind of thing.

Mantis Toboggan

Whatsisname wrote: »

Was just about to post this too. Started watching Simon recently and he's great, such an underrated youtuber, really enjoyed his North Korea series.

How empty everything seemed to be is so eerie, almost feels like it's straight out of a horror movie.

Yeah I like him. Some good content.

NK looked odd but not somewhere I'd be afraid to go. The water park episode was hilarious.

Muahahaha

Would like to go to NK myself but tbh I'd never go because of those organised tours you have to take, your whole holiday is basically chosen for you by the State so no thanks. What I'd really like to see there though is one of their monster military parades with the cardboard missiles and tens of thousands of female soldiers dancing in unison. I doubt that is possible for a tourist though.

If I were willing to spend $200 a day to visit somewhere off the beaten track then I think Bhutan would be far more interesting and a lot less stifling than North Korea.