Should public transport be free for all?

MrFresh

In light of our current climate crisis, our traffic issues in the city centre and surrounding areas and the investment being put into upgrading our public transport infrastructure, would it be a good policy to introduce free public transport for all? Or maybe heavily subsidize it so it costs much less?

is_that_so

Have you made an envelope calculation on that?

MrFresh

is_that_so wrote: »

Have you made an envelope calculation on that?

Not even a little bit.

Wanderer78

It would be interesting to see the up take, if it was free, but are we too used to the flexibility of our own vehicles?

seamus

You could make all public transport free and people would still drive their own vehicles.

The only way to force the issue is to disincentivise driving, make it less attractive than public transport. This includes prioritising other modes of transport, banning private vehicles from pinch points and busy areas as necessary.

Balanced with increased investment in infrastructure, you could change the entire country's attitude to transport in a decade.

Stevieluvsye

You could cost it by introducing congestion charges. I think it is a good idea actually to subsidise travel cost

Allinall

No.

The cost would then be taken from general taxation, meaning some farmer down in Kerry subsidising working people taking the LUAS or DART into work in Dublin.

I realise there has to be some cross-subsidising, but the more of the costs that can be levied on the user, the better.

This is why we should have water charges, bin charges, etc.

Stevieluvsye

Allinall wrote: »

No.

The cost would then be taken from general taxation, meaning some farmer down in Kerry subsidising working people taking the LUAS or DART into work in Dublin.

I realise there has to be some cross-subsidising, but the more of the costs that can be levied on the user, the better.

This is why we should have water charges, bin charges, etc.

See above

endacl

Can’t be free for all. Infrastructure and vehicles must be paid for. Staff must be paid. Storage, maintenance and other ancillary costs must be paid.

What you’re arguing is how it’s paid for. And it is heavily subsidised. It isn’t any cheaper, in real terms, to run an empty bus or train, or one with only a few passengers, than it is to run one with standing room only.

Heavily subsidized.

I think most people would be happy to pay a (modest) price if they were getting a strong, reliable, service. As is, folk are paying two arms and a leg for a rinky-dink service.

Personally, I think we're closer to the birth of Christ than we are to this country having a reliable public transport service.

walshb

Free if someone pays for it!

Kivaro

Should this thread not be in the Dublin forum?
Since it is Dublin-centric.

oLoonatic

Allinall wrote: »

No.

The cost would then be taken from general taxation, meaning some farmer down in Kerry subsidising working people taking the LUAS or DART into work in Dublin.

I realise there has to be some cross-subsidising, but the more of the costs that can be levied on the user, the better.

This is why we should have water charges, bin charges, etc.

Please tell me you're joking and not just plugging the "attack on rural ireland" line when anyone tries to do anything in this country.

Allinall

oLoonatic wrote: »

Please tell me you're joking and not just plugging the "attack on rural ireland" line when anyone tries to do anything in this country.

How in the name of all that's holy did you get the impression that my post was an attack on rural Ireland?

oLoonatic

Allinall wrote: »

How in the name of all that's holy did you get the impression that my post was an attack on rural Ireland?

Read my post again

Graces7

already free for pensioners /needy etc

Victor

If transport operators just stopped collecting fares in the morning, there would be a huge headache. Usage would go up, making it less comfortable, while half the funding would disappear. People would live in Roscommon and commute daily to Dublin, which is unsustainable. Any proposal should prioritise local travel in congested areas.

Potentially what you need to do is improve quality of service (bus lanes, junction priority, more and better buses and shelters, etc.), while making it more attractive to travel off-peak. As things improve, you can then gradually reduce fares.

Allinall wrote: »

No.

While I think the proposal has issues, I think an outright 'no' might be too far also.

Allinall wrote: »

The cost would then be taken from general taxation, meaning some farmer down in Kerry subsidising working people taking the LUAS or DART into work in Dublin.

But those Kerry farmers are subsidised via CAP and other measures. In general, cities pay much more tax than rural areas.

Allinall wrote: »

I realise there has to be some cross-subsidising, but the more of the costs that can be levied on the user, the better.

Allinall wrote: »

This is why we should have water charges, bin charges, etc.

But we don't have water charges. If we are following the 'polluter pays' rule, then we should be collecting about another €3bn a year in motoring taxes to pay for this free public transport.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Not much use having free public transport for the large number of people for whom public transport doesn't exist; free or otherwise. The premise would only suit the likes of Dublin, hence a completely 'free' service would be paid for by many unable to avail of it.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Allinall wrote: »

No.

The cost would then be taken from general taxation, meaning some farmer down in Kerry subsidising working people taking the LUAS or DART into work in Dublin.

I realise there has to be some cross-subsidising, but the more of the costs that can be levied on the user, the better.

This is why we should have water charges, bin charges, etc.

There are many more people without access to public transport than farmers, be they in Kerry or elsewhere. Even the current free transport for pensioners is skewed in favour of those in Dublin or with some access to transport services.

Allinall

oLoonatic wrote: »

Read my post again

I have, and still have no idea how you think I was plugging the "attack on rural Ireland" line.

Allinall

Alena Vast Gun wrote: »

There are many more people without access to public transport than farmers, be they in Kerry or elsewhere. Even the current free transport for pensioners is skewed in favour of those in Dublin or with some access to transport services.

That was just an example.

As I said, there will always have to be cross subsidisation, but in as far as is practicable the costs should be borne by the user.

Feisar

It's not really practical outside of the major population zones.

Would a lot of Dublin's congestion issues not be helped out by companies simply adjusting their opening hours?

Everything's pretty much 9-5, and schools start at 9, too.

Surely starting retail at 9, offices at 10, etc. or different companies starting at 8, others at 10.30 and so forth would spread out the 'peak' traffic times?

I travel into dublin from drogheda the odd time (only rarely, mind). If I leave at 7am on a workday, I get into dublin at about 7.40. If I leave at 8am, it can easily double the journey time in.



I don't believe it's fair to put people off using their private cars by simply making cars less attractive. The best way (albeit probably more difficult) is to make public transport more attractive.

If someone needs a car to get to work at 9am, it's not fair to beat them with a congestion charge because of it. Likely they have little realistic public transport alternatives or they simply may need to transport equipment that they can't bring on a bus or train.

If a congestion charge was to apply, it'd make more sense to only levy it against people who already live in dublin as they're the ones who generally have the better public transport options. John from Westmeath or Mary from Cavan aren't as likely to be able to get the bus to work, so taxing them does nothing but make life harder for them.

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

Would a lot of Dublin's congestion issues not be helped out by companies simply adjusting their opening hours?

Everything's pretty much 9-5, and schools start at 9, too.

Surely starting retail at 9, offices at 10, etc. or different companies starting at 8, others at 10.30 and so forth would spread out the 'peak' traffic times?

It would help to do it more, but lots of places don't (only) start at 9am any more. Lots of factories start at 8, while shop staff start at 10, restaurant staff at 11, etc.

suicide_circus

all public transport should be free

all housing should be free

and all our identical grey tunic suits should be free

Mickeroo

I'd take twice the price it is now if it was practical and reliable.

Boom_Bap

If I were to take the bus(es) to work, it would cost me a tenner daily with a leap card.
50 euro per week for about 2 -3 hours each day on the buses.


Now, if a single bus got me there (it's about a 20 minute drive if i could use bus lanes) for a euro a day and took less than 1 hour per journey, I'd start to consider it.
If it was free, but still took that amount of time, then no.


In general the fares should be reduced, i'm sure a lot of people would be happy with €1 a journey. It would lead to more people using the service and taking more cars off the roads.

Experience_day

we certainly do not get a lot for our taxes currently.

and pls no talk of making cars even more onerous.

jackofalltrades

I'd be against it.
You'd lose an important revenue stream while at the same time possibly see a surge in usage, particularly on some services.
Also I don't believe the government would fund it properly.

You'd be better off bringing in fares that encourage the further use of the public transport network or reduce the cap on Leap cards.

It seems like a bit of a vote buying exercise, while not really caring about who has to pay for it or what impact it might have.

uck51js9zml2yt

Make it free and make sure only those who use it pay higher taxes to pay for it.

piplip87

No because it will be abused and those of us who need it for work will be left waiting.

We don't have the drivers, busses or the routes for this.

Roll out the tax saver scheme to a 75% saving.

beggars_bush

Trams are free in the central business district of Portland, Oregan
works well.
people hop on and hop off as they go about their day

then again, they don't have scumbags like in Dublin

NaFirinne

Time is money also. It would take me 2 hours to get to work using public transport and only 20 minutes in a car.

This is the reason why I choose a car.

Although I'm thinking of investing in an electric bike to do the same commute in about 50 minutes.

Public transport just needs to make sense and in it's current form it doesn't for many people.

Eric Cartman

We abuse everything free here, literally everything, you'd have kids taking busses 1 stop for the craic, junkies riding busses in the rain to get out of it, people absolutely taking the piss. As a nation we are not capable of respecting or using as intended anything we get for free.

splinter65

MrFresh wrote: »

Not even a little bit.

Where will the money come from then? Surely you must have some idea?

beggars_bush

beggars_bush wrote: »

Trams are free in the central business district of Portland, Oregan
works well.
people hop on and hop off as they go about their day

then again, they don't have scumbags like in Dublin

i was in portland last year, saw many's the scumbag

theres posters on boards would have you believe we have monopolies on taxes and scumbags, what an odd angle that is

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

paying two arms and a leg for a rinky-dink service.

jesus thats an awful price. at that rate you could only use it once, and maybe you could get some of the way back using the remaining leg as collateral.

is it possible you dont pay all that much, and that the service is possibly (like public transport everywhere) good-to-ok if not ideal and not luxurious?

MrFresh

NaFirinne wrote: »

Time is money also. It would take me 2 hours to get to work using public transport and only 20 minutes in a car.

This is the reason why I choose a car.

Although I'm thinking of investing in an electric bike to do the same commute in about 50 minutes.

Public transport just needs to make sense and in it's current form it doesn't for many people.

It certainly wouldn't work for everyone.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We abuse everything free here, literally everything, you'd have kids taking busses 1 stop for the craic, junkies riding busses in the rain to get out of it, people absolutely taking the piss. As a nation we are not capable of respecting or using as intended anything we get for free.

I'm not sure the examples you gave are really that terrible.

splinter65 wrote: »

Where will the money come from then? Surely you must have some idea?

From the Exchequer

Eric Cartman

MrFresh wrote: »

It certainly wouldn't work for everyone.





I'm not sure the examples you gave are really that terrible.






From the Exchequer

Point 1 is me and because of point 3 , point 2 becomes a lot more terrible and completely a waste of money.

biko

You realise OP that "free" for you means someone else in the country pays for your fare?
Bus' fuel, maintenance, driver salary all have to come from somewhere.

Ask your parents to pay for your Leap card, it's exactly the same thing.

MrFresh

biko wrote: »

You realise OP that "free" for you means someone else in the country pays for your fare?
Bus' fuel, maintenance, driver salary all have to come from somewhere.

Ask your parents to pay for your Leap card, it's exactly the same thing.

Well I wouldn't really benefit very much. Only one bus a day going from my village to the big smoke. So I guess that means I'd be paying for other people through my taxes. I understand the concept of not personally benefiting from an act may be foreign to you.

Edit: Whoops, shouldn't have said foreign, I know how you feel about that.

charlie_says

You have no privacy on public transport

mikemac2

Boom_Bap wrote: »

If I were to take the bus(es) to work, it would cost me a tenner daily with a leap card.
50 euro per week for about 2 -3 hours each day on the buses.


Now, if a single bus got me there (it's about a 20 minute drive if i could use bus lanes) for a euro a day and took less than 1 hour per journey, I'd start to consider it.
If it was free, but still took that amount of time, then no.


In general the fares should be reduced, i'm sure a lot of people would be happy with €1 a journey. It would lead to more people using the service and taking more cars off the roads.

It would cost 27.50 in Dublin and even less for city services using Bus Eireann like Galway or Cork

I just saved you a score

splinter65

MrFresh wrote: »

Well I wouldn't really benefit very much. Only one bus a day going from my village to the big smoke. So I guess that means I'd be paying for other people through my taxes. I understand the concept of not personally benefiting from an act may be foreign to you.

Edit: Whoops, shouldn't have said foreign, I know how you feel about that.

How much do you intend to raise taxes in order to pay for the free public transport taking into consideration that the uptake of public transport will multiply many many times once it is indeed free.
I mean, I personally would go to Dublin on the train almost every weekend (€51.50 return) and use the Dart and the Luas to visit family and go to entertainment etc.
Or go to Cork on the train to buy a few things in M&S.
The entire of Tipp is going to Croke Park on Sunday. Wouldn’t it be much better for the environment if they left the cars at home and travelled on the free trains.
Same for the Cats.
My daughter could nip up here on the train from Waterford on her day off (€36.80 return).
People are car pooling from here down to jobs down in limerick and cork and even Shannon because they can’t afford the train fares.
Sure why would they do that when they can travel for free.
Unfortunately it will be pretty difficult to get anyone to drive the train for free.
....and the fuel won’t be free.
And the engineers won’t work for nothing.
Or the porters in the station.
So where will the money come from?

biko

Right now old and disabled people go free in Ireland, I think that's as far as I am willing to go right now.

Although it means less aggression from scumbags related to refusal to pay the fare, it means more vandalism and people that think because it's free they can do as they please.

This means the transport becomes less safe and people that can afford to not take the buses won't.

So, problem not solved.


And of course there is the old thing:
Social-justice advocacy groups, such as the Swedish network Planka.nu, see zero-fare public transport as an effort in the redistribution of wealth
Ring a bell?

MrFresh

splinter65 wrote: »

How much do you intend to raise taxes in order to pay for the free public transport taking into consideration that the uptake of public transport will multiply many many times once it is indeed free.
I mean, I personally would go to Dublin on the train almost every weekend (€51.50 return) and use the Dart and the Luas to visit family and go to entertainment etc.
Or go to Cork on the train to buy a few things in M&S.
The entire of Tipp is going to Croke Park on Sunday. Wouldn’t it be much better for the environment if they left the cars at home and travelled on the free trains.
Same for the Cats.
My daughter could nip up here on the train from Waterford on her day off (€36.80 return).
People are car pooling from here down to jobs down in limerick and cork and even Shannon because they can’t afford the train fares.
Sure why would they do that when they can travel for free.
Unfortunately it will be pretty difficult to get anyone to drive the train for free.
....and the fuel won’t be free.
And the engineers won’t work for nothing.
Or the porters in the station.
So where will the money come from?

I think you misunderstand my role. I don't control taxation, I'm just the ideas guy.

splinter65

MrFresh wrote: »

I think you misunderstand my role. I don't control taxation, I'm just the ideas guy.

I’ve got some ideas I think are tops too. But in the real world they wouldn’t work so I don’t embarrass myself by voicing them.

MrFresh

splinter65 wrote: »

I’ve got some ideas I think are tops too. But in the real world they wouldn’t work so I don’t embarrass myself by voicing them.

People say the same thing about a free health service in the US

odyssey06

Flat 1 euro fares.

And maybe look at allowing shared black cab type setups during rush hours.

Victor

odyssey06 wrote: »

Flat 1 euro fares.

And maybe look at allowing shared black cab type setups during rush hours.

Nope. Lyft, Uber, etc. are seen as a burden on public transport.

branie2

Yes it should.