An inconvenient truth about electric cars (UK article)

Portsalon

A very interesting article about problems with recharging e-cars in the UK in yesterday's Sunday Times magazine. It certainly made me think twice about taking the plunge for the time being. Although it doesn't relate directly to Ireland, I really hope that Richard Bruton's advisers make him read it before allowing him to continue spouting nonsense about having 1,000,000 e-cars on Irish roads by 2030.

An inconvenient truth about electric cars
How can we switch to electric cars when there still aren’t enough places to charge them? Nick Rufford reports


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-08-11/the-sunday-times-magazine/an-inconvenient-truth-about-electric-cars-sc2mxgghx

I assume that it's behind a paywall (sorry) but for those who can access it, it's well worth reading.

How can we switch to electric cars when there still aren’t enough places to charge them?

Charge them at home ?

Soarer

As battery technology/capacity/price continues to improve, the need for "everybody" to use public chargepoints will drop.

Certainly shouldn't affect your thinking about getting one. If you're worried about there not being enough chargepoint in the future, surely now is the time to buy?

biko

It's not something this forum hasn't known about since pretty much day one.

Nick Rufford is ripping off Al Gore, and he's not even getting it right.

Tow

He should be more worried about the electrical infrastructure and generating capacity.

One eyed Jack

That’s hardly an inconvenient truth about the cars themselves though?

It’s one of the first things has occurred to anyone who has ever thought about the idea of an electric car. It’s an infrastructure issue, not an issue with electric cars themselves.

slave1

Soarer wrote: »

As battery technology/capacity/price continues to improve, the need for "everybody" to use public chargepoints will drop.

Except prices going up and zero sign of a drop in sight

Wheety

BrownFinger wrote: »

How can we switch to electric cars when there still aren’t enough places to charge them?

Charge them at home ?

This. Why are people thinking that public charging is the only option when the far more convenient solution is to charge at home and only use the public chargers in an emergency, or on a long trip?

Just because you don't have a fuel pump at your house doesn't mean you have to continue with your refueling habits.

Soarer

slave1 wrote: »

Except prices going up and zero sign of a drop in sight

We're talking about the "future".

bunderoon

Tow wrote: »

He should be more worried about the electrical infrastructure and generating capacity.

This is going to be the real issue.
And the powers that be will use this to up the PKwh cost. Going to be interesting.
I'd say a 30 to 50% per unit as they have to factor in the big drop in taxes from petrol and diesel.

I see konas and Model S at chargers, charger use will personally drop with increased range but charger use will grow much more as more electrics are sold which will mean less availability chargers when you want to charge, I see queues at Carlow DC regularly.

When people go away for holidays, long weekends etc they will need to use the chargers.

Apartment owners, people renting etc that's a lot of People who will depend on the infrastructure which is currently less than deplorable.

It's all well and good to say charger use will decrease with increased battery capacity but it needs to be good enough for when you do need it, expecting People to wait up to 2 hrs or more for a charge is just ridiculous, so what if I need public chargers every couple of Months ? when I need it I want to be able to charge simple as.

Other issues, cost and lack of models to choose.

kanuseeme

Wheety wrote: »

This. Why are people thinking that public charging is the only option when the far more convenient solution is to charge at home and only use the public chargers in an emergency, or on a long trip?

Just because you don't have a fuel pump at your house doesn't mean you have to continue with your refueling habits.

Or get a phev, until public charging is up to the task,

Portsalon

Wheety wrote: »

This. Why are people thinking that public charging is the only option when the far more convenient solution is to charge at home and only use the public chargers in an emergency, or on a long trip?

Just because you don't have a fuel pump at your house doesn't mean you have to continue with your refueling habits.

Addressed in the article.

...Ghost...

bunderoon wrote: »

This is going to be the real issue.
And the powers that be will use this to up the PKwh cost. Going to be interesting.
I'd say a 30 to 50% per unit as they have to factor in the big drop in taxes from petrol and diesel.

That won't fly. People are already becoming angry about the increased cost of electricity. Any government trying to dump such a hike on the people will be thrown out on their ears.

road_high

Isn’t the big plus thought that you can charge them at home?

Portsalon

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s hardly an inconvenient truth about the cars themselves though?

It’s one of the first things has occurred to anyone who has ever thought about the idea of an electric car. It’s an infrastructure issue, not an issue with electric cars themselves.

It's a key issue in the purchase decision.

True it's not, strictly, about the cars themselves - but it's a pretty relevant consideration. Rather like the need for roads should one be contemplating changing from walking to buying a bicycle.

...Ghost...

Portsalon wrote: »

It's a key issue in the purchase decision.

True it's not, strictly, about the cars themselves - but it's a pretty relevant consideration. Rather like the need for roads should one be contemplating changing from walking to buying a bicycle.

For some, it might be. But then only if you are considering the wrong car. Anyone buying an EV should be buying one that will cover their normal driving needs without the use of a public charger.

If I had to drive from Dublin to Cork every other work, I would not be doing it it a Gen 1 Leaf. I could.....but I wouldn't. However, a Gen 1 Leaf is perfect for my 99% local driving. The other 1% of the time, using a public charger is usually not a problem.

Portsalon

...Ghost... wrote: »

For some, it might be. But then only if you are considering the wrong car. Anyone buying an EV should be buying one that will cover their normal driving needs without the use of a public charger.

If I had to drive from Dublin to Cork every other work, I would not be doing it it a Gen 1 Leaf. I could.....but I wouldn't. However, a Gen 1 Leaf is perfect for my 99% local driving. The other 1% of the time, using a public charger is usually not a problem.

OK so the article wasn't pitched at your particular needs. I however, being a resident of rural Donegal, have a wholly different perspective.

liamog

Adding new capacity won't really be a costly issue.
According to BNEF's New Energy Outlook, unsubsidised onshore wind is currently the cheapest form of new supply.
Our reliance on gas plants leaves us in a good place to add more renewable capacity, Gas makes a good back up as it's reasonably fast. Couple that to our interconnectors we're covered.

Smart metering with EV batteries also helps wind power on the demand management side. I could happily see a day where I tell my car I need a minimum of 100km range by default and to charge to 100% if electricity is cheap. So long as their is an override button to fully charge the night before I'll be happy.

...Ghost...

Portsalon wrote: »

OK so the article wasn't pitched at your particular needs. I however, being a resident of rural Donegal, have a wholly different perspective.

I couldn't read the article, but I have a fairly good idea of the content. It's been an ongoing narrative and brings us back to the same question. Are you buying the right car for your needs? That's all that really matters.

If you can drive from A-B-A with sufficient range left and you can do this 99% of the time, then you are looking at the right EV. If you need to drive outside the range of the EV and rely on public chargers from time to time, maybe it's not the right EV....and maybe an EV is not the right car at all.

Latest ranges of EVs would take you from one end of our little piece of dirt in the ocean to the other. The range issue is becoming a non issue these days unless talking about the used car market.

If I have to wait for an hour even once this is not acceptable just as much as it would not be acceptable to have to expect and ICE driver to queue for an hour for a 3 min refill.

Ever since I got the i3 Rex I have avoided more queues than I could count by using the Rex, chargers have got a lot busier since I had the Leaf.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

If I have to wait for an hour even once this is not acceptable just as much as it would not be acceptable to have to expect and ICE driver to queue for an hour for a 3 min refill.

Ever since I got the i3 Rex I have avoided more queues than I could count by using the Rex, chargers have got a lot busier since I had the Leaf.

If you drove a Kona 64 how often would you need a public charging? Be honest. With a L40 driven close to 30k a year we have last needed public charging in June. I think we have done 3 longer than 200 kilometer trips this year so far.

...Ghost...

Deleted User wrote: »

If I have to wait for an hour even once this is not acceptable just as much as it would not be acceptable to have to expect and ICE driver to queue for an hour for a 3 min refill.

Ever since I got the i3 Rex I have avoided more queues than I could count by using the Rex, chargers have got a lot busier since I had the Leaf.

You have the right car for the job. The Leaf was not the right car and presumably a Tesla was not an option, so the Rex was your fit. If one needs to rely on the public network for more than the odd occasion, it's bonkers to choose that EV.

When choosing ICE or EV, I would however gladly embrace the potential of having to wait an hour for a charger on the rare occasion I might go beyond the range of my EV. This is because I love driving EV and the savings they offer, while not giving a damn about the price of a litre of petrol.

Old diesel

The reason you have queues is that at the charge locations you don't have enough chargers.

People should be able to use any charger thats compatible with their EV at any time - regardless of whether they live 5 miles away or 150.

Need to deliver the capacity using solutions that meet that suit the locations and usage patterns at that location.

So at Cinemas and overnight parking etc - we would look at AC charging at 7 to 22 kw charging.

On motorways and main short stay areas (Airport short term carpark for example) - we look at rapids.

Other countries appear to get this more right with even on street charging being deployed more widely.

Old diesel

A major problem in the current network is stuff like the following.

1) Killarney only has one rapid......

2) Sligo only has six slow chargers and last I heard 4 dont work.

Both of above scenarios which are more widespread in the network hinder EV use and create lack of trust in EVs as a solution.

Cars perfectly capable of a Cork/Limerick/Galway/Wexford to Dublin and back run with perhaps one charge stop needed - get dismissed as expensive city cars because the infrastructure isn't there to support.

It sickens me because I know the infrastructure could be fixed to make it a non issue.

Things like.......

1) better chargers then current ESB crap chargers.

2) having lots of charge options at locations - if you have 15 chargers at a location and one is down - the other 14 add still available.

3) chargers at lots of locations - so no matter where you are in country you are never too far from chargers.

4) fast back up and response to issues so a charger thats down is bought online FAST.

liamog

European Studies conducted when cars had shorter ranges gave an average 15% requirement for rapid charging vs home/work/destination.
We've approx 7,700 EVs New or Used Imports since 2011.
Using that that number of EVs and doing Irish average distances, the whole rapid network should see 204 30 min (25kWh) sessions per day.
I've been generous and assumed a 48 Week Year, and 5 day week.

Nobody would ask why the bar giving out free beer, has a really long queue!

Salary Negotiator

samih wrote: »

If you drove a Kona 64 how often would you need a public charging? Be honest. With a L40 driven close to 30k a year we have last needed public charging in June. I think we have done 3 longer than 200 kilometer trips this year so far.

I've done about 5K KM in my Kona and have had to use public chargers 5 or 6 times, and all bar 2 of those were while I was waiting for the home charger to be installed.

The 2 times I did need them was when I was on holidays in the west of Ireland.

charlieIRL

As someone who is very close to taking the step into full time EV use, I think public chargers sholuld only be there in case of an emergency. As said previously on the thread - most if not all EV's will get you to your destination and back. If you depend on public charging to do that then I feel you are in the wrong vehicle.

I also can't see the government providing any more public chargers until paid charging comes in - why give away free electricity when (a) you can charge at home at a reduced rate and (b) they'll get away with charging for it.

One eyed Jack

charlieIRL wrote: »

As someone who is very close to taking the step into full time EV use, I think public chargers sholuld only be there in case of an emergency. As said previously on the thread - most if not all EV's will get you to your destination and back. If you depend on public charging to do that then I feel you are in the wrong vehicle.

I also can't see the government providing any more public chargers until paid charging comes in - why give away free electricity when (a) you can charge at home at a reduced rate and (b) they'll get away with charging for it.

I thought the whole idea of promoting EVs or at least the Government promoting EVs over fossil fuelled vehicles was for emissions reduction reasons and climate change and all that kind of good stuff, so saying it’s the “wrong car” doesn’t really address one of the main drawbacks to EV adoption.

I can’t install a charging point in my home because I live in an apartment, so I am solely dependent upon public charging points. At some stage sure, it’s likely that the privately owned car park might install a communal charging point (that’ll be fun ), and even allowing for the possibility that they won’t be hogged by some inconsiderate so and so who thinks it’s a set and forget parking space, I’m as liable to forget to charge the battery as I am diligent about charging my phone (I forget, a lot ).

All of these are of course teething issues and personal responsibility and so on, but for sheer convenience alone right now, the fact that I don’t have to concern myself with any of those issues is worth the ownership of a fossil fuelled vehicle over an EV.

Gumbo

Portsalon wrote: »

It's a key issue in the purchase decision.

True it's not, strictly, about the cars themselves - but it's a pretty relevant consideration. Rather like the need for roads should one be contemplating changing from walking to buying a bicycle.

But you don’t switch from a bicycle to a car without first getting your licence and researching insurance costs for example.

The same way you don’t jump into an EV with a range of 100km and your commute is 101km.

For most EV users, myself included. We haven’t been to a public chargenpoint in years

samih

samih wrote: »

If you drove a Kona 64 how often would you need a public charging? Be honest. With a L40 driven close to 30k a year we have last needed public charging in June. I think we have done 3 longer than 200 kilometer trips this year so far.

...Ghost... wrote: »

You have the right car for the job. The Leaf was not the right car and presumably a Tesla was not an option, so the Rex was your fit. If one needs to rely on the public network for more than the odd occasion, it's bonkers to choose that EV.

When choosing ICE or EV, I would however gladly embrace the potential of having to wait an hour for a charger on the rare occasion I might go beyond the range of my EV. This is because I love driving EV and the savings they offer, while not giving a damn about the price of a litre of petrol.

Each to their own but when I want to charge I want to wait minimal time, it's bad enough there's not much improvement in charge times since 2011 or the network since 2015 add to that the ever increasing amount of ev drivers and queuing at chargers.

I'll wait 30 mins maybe and if it suits maybe an hour if I have a meal, great, but what if I want to have a meal and can't charge because a Model S P100 D or 64 Kwh Kona is there ? a Model S P100 D and 2 X 64 Kwh Kona ? that could have devastating consequences to anyone's plans and not a risk I'm going to take but if someone has nothing better to do than wait and be happy for the sake of saving a few quid then fair play, I did it long enough and when I want the infrastructure the most is when I am away for weekends, week or whatever. No thanks.

Lumen

Portsalon wrote: »

A very interesting article about problems with recharging e-cars in the UK in yesterday's Sunday Times magazine. It certainly made me think twice about taking the plunge for the time being. Although it doesn't relate directly to Ireland, I really hope that Richard Bruton's advisers make him read it before allowing him to continue spouting nonsense about having 1,000,000 e-cars on Irish roads by 2030.

Irish new car registrations are running at over 120k/year, and another 100k or so private used imports, so 1m cars in 11 years requires on average 40% of all those to be electric over that whole period.

That could be, for instance, 5% (2020),10,15,25,35,35,45,55,65,75,90% (2030).

Currently we're at 2.5% of new registrations in 2019.

Is it realistic to import/sell 11k electric cars next year? I dunno, it probably depends on supply.

Even with a crap public charger network, the next few years of growth could be met by people with home chargers.

Old diesel

kceire wrote: »

But you don’t switch from a bicycle to a car without first getting your licence and researching insurance costs for example.

The same way you don’t jump into an EV with a range of 100km and your commute is 101km.

For most EV users, myself included. We haven’t been to a public chargenpoint in years

The problem is that if everyone is to move to EVs for climate reasons then the public network has to adapt (more chargers at more locations) to people who will need to use that network for all charging needs.

Mind you the fact people can use that one home charger for most recharging does demonstrate how usable EVs can be for many user scenarios.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Nobody would ask why the bar giving out free beer, has a really long queue!

Exactly. The queues will shorten once it becomes an expense. At the moment, why wouldn't I fill my battery at a free charger, but if I'm being charged per minute or per kw at something more than I'll pay at home, I'll just get what I need and move on.

Still though, ESB and their 1 fast charger per location is quickly becoming a joke.

this.lad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Each to their own but when I want to charge I want to wait minimal time, it's bad enough there's not much improvement in charge times since 2011 or the network since 2015 add to that the ever increasing amount of ev drivers and queuing at chargers.

I'll wait 30 mins maybe and if it suits maybe an hour if I have a meal, great, but what if I want to have a meal and can't charge because a Model S P100 D or 64 Kwh Kona is there ? a Model S P100 D and 2 X 64 Kwh Kona ? that could have devastating consequences to anyone's plans and not a risk I'm going to take but if someone has nothing better to do than wait and be happy for the sake of saving a few quid then fair play, I did it long enough and when I want the infrastructure the most is when I am away for weekends, week or whatever. No thanks.

Where is 250km from Carlow that all of these big battery cars are coming from that need to charge to get home to?

Even you, by your own admission, don't need to use them. It's the lure of free electricity that is the problem for many. They may have stretched based on x saving on fuel by counting on free public charging.

Ionity etc are welcome. I see on the other thread that it cost a poster €5 for 17kw. A fiver of petrol wouldn't get you terribly far. But a fiver every time you pull in to the Carlow rapid charger would make it less busy, guaranteed.

unkel

this.lad wrote: »

Ionity etc are welcome. I see on the other thread that it cost a poster €5 for 17kw.

And with no queuing time this would take about 15 minutes of charging in a car like the 2016 Ioniq (much faster in the likes of a Tesla Model 3). Payment is taken automatically so as soon as your charge finishes you can drive off. While it is charging you can go to the toilet

That's not really any longer than it takes to put 20l into an ICE, go to the toilet and then go queue inside to make the payment

this.lad

this.lad wrote: »

Where is 250km from Carlow that all of these big battery cars are coming from that need to charge to get home to?

Even you, by your own admission, don't need to use them. It's the lure of free electricity that is the problem for many. They may have stretched based on x saving on fuel by counting on free public charging.

Ionity etc are welcome. I see on the other thread that it cost a poster €5 for 17kw. A fiver of petrol wouldn't get you terribly far. But a fiver every time you pull in to the Carlow rapid charger would make it less busy, guaranteed.

I don't know where they are coming from but they are mostly Dublin reg cars and not local, there are come locals including myself that use it the odd time but the last several times I went there it was busy and the time I actually needed it last week it was broken lol.

No I didn't say I don't need the network, I said I rarely need it, but the point is that when I need to use it it's difficult to charge because of 1 charger per site so I use the Rex because I don't want to wait longer than I have to.

I could live with a 40 Kwh car easily if there were as many chargers as petrol pumps and I could charge at 100 Kw or more.

Portsalon

kceire wrote: »

But you don’t switch from a bicycle to a car without first getting your licence and researching insurance costs for example.

The same way you don’t jump into an EV with a range of 100km and your commute is 101km.

For most EV users, myself included. We haven’t been to a public chargenpoint in years

Just one question:

Did you bother to read the article that I linked to?

unkel

Portsalon wrote: »

Did you bother to read the article that I linked to?

What a silly question. It's behind a pay wall. We will read it if you pay for all our subscriptions :rolleyes:

Portsalon

unkel wrote: »

What a silly question. It's behind a pay wall. We will read it if you pay for all our subscriptions :rolleyes:

If I hadn't read an article, then I'd be reluctant to regurgitate my opinions on a thread about the said article; but I suppose that e-car fanatics (with the honourable exception of Mad_Lad) operate at an entirely different cerebral level!

Perhaps it's an undocumented side-effect of sitting for long periods on top of all those lithium batteries!

Portsalon

Portsalon wrote: »

If I hadn't read an article, then I'd be reluctant to regurgitate my opinions on a thread about the said article; but I suppose that e-car fanatics (with the honourable exception of Mad_Lad) operate at an entirely different cerebral level!

Perhaps it's an undocumented side-effect of sitting for long periods on top of all those lithium batteries!

If every new EV owner takes personal responsibility of arranging a dedicated charger installed for them as they should then I can't really see issue with the number of available chargers. If your car has a range of say 300 kilometers and you usually drive less than 100 kilometers a day and you can plug in where you park overnight it's a non-issue.

It's just a small additional task 1st time you decide to go EV. Not many people die of hunger either on daily basis without goverment providing them nutrition. You just have to sometimes take some personal responsibility and solve your daily problems. If you don't have enough cerebral activity to do so you are either too young to drive or incarcerated somewhere where you don't need to.

Portsalon

samih wrote: »

If every new EV owner takes personal responsibility of arranging a dedicated charger installed for them as they should then I can't really see issue with the number of available chargers. If your car has a range of say 300 kilometers and you usually drive less than 100 kilometers a day and you can plug in where you park overnight it's a non-issue.

It's just a small additional task 1st time you decide to go EV. Not many people die of hunger either on daily basis without goverment providing them nutrition. You just have to sometimes take some personal responsibility and solve your daily problems. If you don't have enough cerebral activity to do so you are either too young to drive or incarcerated somewhere where you don't need to.

Quality rant, although somewhat lacking in logic, coherence or relevance.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

If every new EV owner takes personal responsibility of arranging a dedicated charger installed for them as they should then I can't really see issue with the number of available chargers. If your car has a range of say 300 kilometers and you usually drive less than 100 kilometers a day and you can plug in where you park overnight it's a non-issue.

It's just a small additional task 1st time you decide to go EV. Not many people die of hunger either on daily basis without goverment providing them nutrition. You just have to sometimes take some personal responsibility and solve your daily problems. If you don't have enough cerebral activity to do so you are either too young to drive or incarcerated somewhere where you don't need to.

bang on the money there

fricatus

Portsalon wrote: »

Just one question:

Did you bother to read the article that I linked to?

Portsalon wrote: »

If I hadn't read an article, then I'd be reluctant to regurgitate my opinions on a thread about the said article; but I suppose that e-car fanatics (with the honourable exception of Mad_Lad) operate at an entirely different cerebral level!

Perhaps it's an undocumented side-effect of sitting for long periods on top of all those lithium batteries!

Typically in such situations, people just copy and paste the article. Sure, it's illegal, and probably contravenes the charter, but I'm sure News International is unlikely to pursue Boards.ie through the courts.

You could also summarise the argument for us if you're uncomfortable breaking copyright. All that most of us have to go on is that there's an "inconvenient truth" about electric cars which is that "there are not enough places to charge them".

Portsalon

fricatus wrote: »

Typically in such situations, people just copy and paste the article. Sure, it's illegal, and probably contravenes the charter, but I'm sure News International is unlikely to pursue Boards.ie through the courts.

You could also summarise the argument for us if you're uncomfortable breaking copyright. All that most of us have to go on is that there's an "inconvenient truth" about electric cars which is that "there are not enough places to charge them".

It was a very long (and interesting) article and, generally speaking, people can't be arsed reading very long articles on their devices.

Also, I had this weird idea that people who couldn't read the linked article would have many better things to do with their time than to spout opinionated bilge about something that they hadn't even read! Silly me!

daheff

Wheety wrote: »

This. Why are people thinking that public charging is the only option when the far more convenient solution is to charge at home and only use the public chargers in an emergency, or on a long trip?

Just because you don't have a fuel pump at your house doesn't mean you have to continue with your refueling habits.

Not everybody can charge at home. in europe (especially in cities) a much higher proportion of people live in apartments so would be very reliant for onstreet charging.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

The solutions to these problems are appearing faster than you can think of them.

With range now in the 400km range on a single charge, the charging infrastructure is becoming less of an issue. Groups like Ionity putting in 300kwh chargers in petrol stations in the uk is a great idea (petrol station owners would love a captive audience for 20 minutes to buy coffee). Tesla are expandind. People can charge in work or at home. You can charge at public charging points.

Look at the tesla network in the US coverage is almost blanket in just a few years.

I heard a rumor that the 20 million in funding for the expansion of the esb network hasn’t been released.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

I heard a rumor that the 20 million in funding for the expansion of the esb network hasn’t been released.

If that is SEAI funding I've heard the same rumor
The budget for eco home refits was breached so they are using this to cover it

lawred2

Portsalon wrote: »

A very interesting article about problems with recharging e-cars in the UK in yesterday's Sunday Times magazine. It certainly made me think twice about taking the plunge for the time being. Although it doesn't relate directly to Ireland, I really hope that Richard Bruton's advisers make him read it before allowing him to continue spouting nonsense about having 1,000,000 e-cars on Irish roads by 2030.

An inconvenient truth about electric cars
How can we switch to electric cars when there still aren’t enough places to charge them? Nick Rufford reports


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-08-11/the-sunday-times-magazine/an-inconvenient-truth-about-electric-cars-sc2mxgghx

I assume that it's behind a paywall (sorry) but for those who can access it, it's well worth reading.

Would have thought that this was already known

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

If that is SEAI funding I've heard the same rumor
The budget for eco home refits was breached so they are using this to cover it

It was all Bullsh1t from the Government for green publicity, nothing more, if we see 1 Multiple charger site by end of 2020 I will be surprised.

Perhaps the Government and ESB are hoping Ionity and others will litter the country with chargers.

The ESB obviously don't want to spend the money, on the other hand finding sites can be difficult which is why we see 0 on the N7, I was told it was impossible to get the land owners there to see the benefits and all refused some based on the O'l get out of jail card, "insurance"

The Government should now pass a law making garages install multiple 150+ Kw chargers, it's the only way.