Are we going to have alot of homeless pensioners?

ashes2014

This quesiton is aimed at everyone who is working and is currently renting from a private landlord and through choice or no other option plans to rent long term.

Where are you planning to live when you retire?

Its a question that came up recently between a group of us and none of us really had any viable answers.

Are we going to have alot of homeless pensioners?

Horusire

I have wondered this myself. My own brother is doing this. No plans to buy a house.

Cannot see it ending well.

Addle

I’m trying to encourage a couple of friends hitting 40 and renting in Dublin to buy at home (cheaper), rent it out and then continue renting in Dublin.
At least they’ll have an asset come 65/70.
They’re annoyed at everyone but themselves because they spent their 20s and 30s having a good time and traveling rather than saving for a deposit so they can buy in the location of their choice.

L1011

We had this problem in a previous housing crisis. State built substantial numbers of very small social housing units - two or three floor blocks of basically bedsits. Some have been demolished and many others have had unit mergers to create bigger flats since.

The same will need to be done again; but preferably done better. The Iveagh Trust are doing work in this sector (Annamore Court on this list being a replacement for a derelict set of those council bedsits) but we can't rely on the voluntary sector - and they're Dublin specific anyway.

ashes2014

Addle wrote: »

I’m trying to encourage a couple of friends hitting 40 and renting in Dublin to buy at home (cheaper), rent it out and then continue renting in Dublin.
At least they’ll have an asset come 65/70.
They’re annoyed at everyone but themselves because they spent their 20s and 30s having a good time and traveling rather than saving for a deposit so they can buy in the location of their choice.

Thats not a bad idea.

The only downside to that is, you are taxed @40% on rental income (assuming higher rate of tax) and cannot offset it against any mortgage payments.

You would end up having to charge a substantial amount of rent to cover the tax and the mortgage payments.

Still thought, its an option and one worth considering while you can still get a mortgage.

endacl

ashes2014 wrote: »

Thats not a bad idea.

The only downside to that is, you are taxed @40% on rental income (assuming higher rate of tax) and cannot offset it against any mortgage payments.

You would end up having to charge a substantial amount of rent to cover the tax and the mortgage payments.

Still thought, its an option and one worth considering while you can still get a mortgage.

You can set a property purchase up as a pension trust. Any expenses are deductible, and rental surplus goes into the fund.

Horusire

I think this alongside the pension time bomb that's coming circa 2035? Or maybe later not 100% will really set Ireland back a long way.

I am in the public sector and I genuinely don't believe that the pension I am paying into will be there in 2042 when I am supposed to retire. The state will also have to pay these pensioners pensions which will IMO have a major effect on Ireland at that time.

There will have to be more small council or not for profit run housing for older people and the like of this http://sueryderfoundation.ie/

The issue is that younger older people are often resident to living in places like the above so it means the younger old people can be the types that have various social issue which makes it even more unattractive, the older old people seem to grand with it.

Its not a new thing its was not just young people who lived all the bedsite that use to be around Dublin.

There was a brilliant but disturbing article in the Irish time a while ago about people in their 50s and 60s in Dublin who are still renting, however, the majority had lead somewhat unconventional lives, musicians. or they had traveled a lot, or moved around a lot though not all were like that.

ashes2014

Horusire wrote: »

I think this alongside the pension time bomb that's coming circa 2035? Or maybe later not 100% will really set Ireland back a long way.

I am in the public sector and I genuinely don't believe that the pension I am paying into will be there in 2042 when I am supposed to retire. The state will also have to pay these pensioners pensions which will IMO have a major effect on Ireland at that time.

I agree with everything you are saying-and its maddening that you have no choice but to pay into a pension, espically when you suspect the pension may not even exist when you do retire.

Its quite terryifyng when you realise that we are like sitting ducks.

Mad_maxx

Any TD or minister shouting for an increase in the state pension is an enemy of those under fifty, Willie o dea and Regina Doherty are the biggest culprits but the spoiling of pensioners is policy in every party

We need to wake up

EB_2013

I wonder how they manage in Europe were a bigger percentage of households rent compared to Ireland. Do they have longer leases or something like purpose built housing for retirees like they have in the UK.

Gasherbraun

I work with homeless people over the age of 60 and here are some of the facts.

- A good proportion of the people becoming homeless or at serious risk are in the situation because the landlord has legally ended the tenancy. These tenancies are often very long term. 20 and even 30 years is not unusual.

- The majority of applications to us are from men. Often they left the marital home (separation) voluntarily and went into a bedsit while still working. Then they stop working and start struggling.

- These people are able to get HAP / Rent supplement but face the same challenges as other people with the added problem of ageism.

- 25% of the people who apply to us for housing are foreign nationals.

- The vast majority of people we see do not have issues around drink and drugs and they are at risk because of circumstances beyond their control normally.

- Our list of applicants has tripled since 2017.

We are developing age specific housing (we are not for profit) in Dublin and looking for opportunities nationally but the sector needs huge investment to counter the future impact of our aging population.

On top of how we provide housing for older people more thought is needed on how we integrate different sectors of society and provide affordable housing to a wider sector of society not just those who are traditionally seen as disadvantaged.

LuckyLloyd

As a state we will pay to build purpose built social housing. There will be no other options and ultimately we will not countenance pensioners dying on the street.

4068ac1elhodqr

Don't forget the coming automation job replacement (only the very most highly skilled will have jobs 2035), coming gig-economy, C-Tax haven loss, and an increasing average age heading to 42yr by 2050.

tayto lover

Anyone know how Germany fares in this area as they have many many citizens who rent?

endacl

tayto lover wrote: »

Anyone know how Germany fares in this area as they have many many citizens who rent?

They have sensible rules.

Wouldn’t work here.

DubCount

The issues of pensions and home ownership are inter-related. If you save up a sufficient pension pot to produce a retirement income that pays your rent in retirement, that should avoid the financial risk of old age homelessness (if we had a functioning rental market).

Homelessness is caused by insufficient social housing supply. Either the government supplies more social housing directly (funded by extra taxes) or it creates an environment to encourage private investment. I think it is misleading to bring retirement savings (a completely different problem) into the debate, when anything distracting from supply only muddies the waters.

Assetbacked

A direct result of FG's catastrophic failure with the rental crisis will be that the majority of those retiring will need to be cared for by the state for 20+ years on average with a house and pension once they retire.

These people are the current young generation who are already stuck renting and are likely to have to work until they are 70 by the time they retire, in order to save the state some cash. If you own your own home now and there is minimal or no mortgage on it, you should not be getting state pension.

Ha Long Bay

Assetbacked wrote: »

A direct result of FG's catastrophic failure with the rental crisis will be that the majority of those retiring will need to be cared for by the state for 20+ years on average with a house and pension once they retire.

These people are the current young generation who are already stuck renting and are likely to have to work until they are 70 by the time they retire, in order to save the state some cash. If you own your own home now and there is minimal or no mortgage on it, you should not be getting state pension.

If you contribute tax, PRSI and USC for 40 years to the state why should you not be entitled to a state pension?

Geuze

Assetbacked wrote: »

If you own your own home now and there is minimal or no mortgage on it, you should not be getting state pension.

Main SPC is based on paying Social Insurance.

If you have paid enough PRSI, you get the SPC.

endacl

Assetbacked wrote: »

If you own your own home now and there is minimal or no mortgage on it, you should not be getting state pension.

If you paid your mortgage, you own your house.
If you paid your stamps, you own your pension.

There’s no crossover.

aido79

endacl wrote: »

If you paid your mortgage, you own your house.
If you paid your stamps, you own your pension.

There’s no crossover.

Stamps were abolished in 1979 but don't know how this affects a person's pension.

ted1

Assetbacked wrote: »

If you own your own home now and there is minimal or no mortgage on it, you should not be getting state pension.

Bollock!!
What do you think our PRSI is going to. We are paying it ourselves.
How about if you sponge off the state for more than 2 years you dint get the dole instead you get a nutritionist to order your food from Tesco and that’s it.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Bollock!!
What do you think our PRSI is going to. We are paying it ourselves.

I not sure, I think I read that the prsi funds are spent on today's pensioners as they come in, not saved for tomorrow.

There may well be no fund in future.

The Student

Assetbacked wrote: »

A direct result of FG's catastrophic failure with the rental crisis will be that the majority of those retiring will need to be cared for by the state for 20+ years on average with a house and pension once they retire.

These people are the current young generation who are already stuck renting and are likely to have to work until they are 70 by the time they retire, in order to save the state some cash. If you own your own home now and there is minimal or no mortgage on it, you should not be getting state pension.

What a ridiculous post. So what you are saying is don't work and buy your own home. If you actually try to look after yourself and pay taxes you are on your own when you retire.

Are you trying to prompt reactions or do you really beleive this thinking?

Portsalon

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I not sure, I think I read that the prsi funds are spent on today's pensioners as they come in, not saved for tomorrow.

There may well be no fund in future.

PRSI funds are spent on Social Welfare Benefit (not Assistance) payments and surpluses are transferred to the Investment Fund. At end-2017, the amount in the SW Investment Fund was about €1.185bn.

Yurt2

endacl wrote: »

They have sensible rules.

Wouldn’t work here.

This. If you attempted to introduce here German style rules that would give renters some semblance of stability, boards servers would catch fire from all the skin and hair flying in this forum.

Rodin

Far too many being supported from cradle to grave.

And those who work hard, pay for everything will be further punished because they may have some savings.

There is true inequality in this country, but not in the direction the lefties would have you believe.

Yurt2

Rodin wrote: »

Far too many being supported from cradle to grave.

And those who work hard, pay for everything will be further punished because they may have some savings.

There is true inequality in this country, but not in the direction the lefties would have you believe.

Yes, it's that tiny sliver of long-term unemployed that is causing a pensions time bomb, in-work poverty, housing unaffordability and the prospect of hundreds of thousands in old-age homelessness in a couple of decades. :rolleyes:

Portsalon

Handy top-level breakdown of Social Welfare payments (scroll down slightly).

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/

Rodin

Yurt! wrote: »

Yes, it's that tiny sliver of long-term unemployed that is causing a pensions time bomb, in-work poverty, housing unaffordability and the prospect of hundreds of thousands in old-age homelessness in a couple of decades. :rolleyes:

Social welfare is the biggest burden in this state.
House prices aren't unaffordable nationwide.

HAP payments raised a false floor in rental prices and made it more difficult for those in lower incomes who aren't entitled to social welfare.

Yurt2

Rodin wrote: »

Social welfare is the biggest burden in this state.
House prices aren't unaffordable nationwide.

.

Nope, pensions are. And by quite a way. Look at the figures.

theres no chance

no chance at all, mind


that the malthusian, doom mongering, dystopian view of technology and economic and societal progress that has been wrong throughout history is wrong this time also?

do people feel more important when their random opinions veer towards catastrophe or something?

Rodin

Yurt! wrote: »

Nope, pensions are. And by quite a way. Look at the figures.

I'd happily reduce the state pension.
A pension age couple on almost 500 notes a week in their hand? Nonsense

seamusk84

Portsalon wrote: »

PRSI funds are spent on Social Welfare Benefit (not Assistance) payments and surpluses are transferred to the Investment Fund. At end-2017, the amount in the SW Investment Fund was about €1.185bn.

That’s actually nothing when you consider the amount pissed away on the inefficient HSE every week.

tayto lover

I’m a pensioner and own my home.
As a contributor for nearly 50 years I’ll enjoy my retirement. Thanks.

Portsalon

seamusk84 wrote: »

That’s actually nothing when you consider the amount pissed away on the inefficient HSE every week.

What about the amount "pissed away" in the efficient parts of the HSE - i.e. the vast majority?

Yurt2

Rodin wrote: »

I'd happily reduce the state pension.
A pension age couple on almost 500 notes a week in their hand? Nonsense

So you'd be happy to push hundreds of thousands into poverty and probably food insecurity in old age despite a lifetime of prsi contributions.

Good to know where you stand on things.

Mrs OBumble

Yurt! wrote: »

Nope, pensions are. And by quite a way. Look at the figures.

Oldness benefit is part of the overall welfare spend.

Yurt2

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Oldness benefit is part of the overall welfare spend.

It's not called oldness benefit, it's the state pension. And I'm aware it's part of the wider social spend. The original poster was speaking of social welfare for the unemployed (his 'cradle to grave' comment), unless he was trying to frame people who worked all their lives and paid contributions, and now rely on the state pension to put bread in their mouths as some sort of class of scroungers - which is a distinct possibility.

Pretty toxic all round.

endacl

aido79 wrote: »

Stamps were abolished in 1979 but don't know how this affects a person's pension.

Figure of speech. If you’ve made the required contributions, you’ve bought your state pension.

endacl

Yurt! wrote: »

This. If you attempted to introduce here German style rules that would give renters some semblance of stability, boards servers would catch fire from all the skin and hair flying in this forum.

I’m not so sure. It would benefit landlords too. They’d also be able to deal with defaulters and messers far more quickly and efficiently.

Mrs OBumble

endacl wrote: »

Figure of speech. If you’ve made the required contributions, you’ve bought your state pension.

You haven't.

You've bought the right to be considered to have paid X contributions no matter which of the have-pension-bilateral-with-ireland countries you retire in.

This does not guarantee you a specific pension though. Countries regularly change amounts and entitlement rules for pensions, the same as they do for any other welfare schemes.

Assetbacked

john4321 wrote: »

If you contribute tax, PRSI and USC for 40 years to the state why should you not be entitled to a state pension?

40 years, worked all their life etc. Taking the attitude that "they're old, you can't touch them" ignores the reality that things change. There was a recession caused by excessive lending, not contributed to in any way by young people yet they are saddled with the debt burden for decades. That's not fair but it's necessary.

Similarly, house prices have shot up hundreds of percent in the last few decades. All this wealth needs to be taken back into the economy someway as we live in a progressive tax system which means those that have more generally contribute more. There is no denying that house prices are far too expensive and it is dead money for the most part to pump it into land and property. There is money there and serious inequality between those that own property and those that don't, it's as simple as that. Lose your selfish attitude of "pull up the ladder", it's tiring.

Saudades

Assetbacked wrote: »

If you own your own home now and there is minimal or no mortgage on it, you should not be getting state pension.

I see the reasoning in targeting home-owners as if you own your own home you are generally in the wealthiest bracket and one day will be mortgage/rent free - but if someone has paid PRSI for 40+ years, then they are as fully entitled to the state pension as anyone else and I wouldn't take that away from anyone who has contributed PRSI for so many years.

Alternatively, Property Tax could be significantly increased instead.

At the moment it's only a mere 0.18% of the value of the property.

To put into context - a couple living in their own house worth €500,000 in Dublin in 2019 are currently paying just €30.25 a month each on LPT.

Rodin wrote: »

I'd happily reduce the state pension.
A pension age couple on almost 500 notes a week in their hand? Nonsense

What if that pension age couple on 500 notes a week were paying rent at 250 notes a week.....

And when one of them dies, the rent amount stays the same of course, so that widowed person on 250 notes a week still has rent to pay at 250 notes a week....

If there is a shortage of funds in the pot, then I would much rather see the 4% PRSI tax increased rather than the State Pension decreased.

pwurple

People who own a home maintain the buildings. You can take the view they are custodians of our built heritage and housing stock. They simultaneously provide the state a service by housing themselves and the future custodians.


Incentives drive economic behaviours, tread very bloody carefully with pensions, people are more protective of those, than any other benefit (and rightly so). They are also often extremely experienced with finance by the time they get there., and there is a huge pot of money the exchequer can lose out on by messing with it.

We already have a trickle of private pensions leaving this country due to tax incentives in other parts of Europe. Tell people if they own a home or a private pension here they get no state pension? They notionally sell the home to their kids, pop the private pension into a Portuguese investment fund and draw down the state pension plus their investment dividends. How does that help anyone except fund manager taking their cut.

Assetbacked

endacl wrote: »

If you paid your mortgage, you own your house.
If you paid your stamps, you own your pension.

There’s no crossover.

Pull up the ladders, lads. There's no room on board for everyone.

Give a proportionate pension taking into account contribution and inflation and while it would be commensurat, it would not be viable. This would just mean the pensioner needs to sell their house to make up the difference. Not a big deal considering how much cash they can be handed for doing this.

Assetbacked

[quote="pwurple;110940771"
We already have a trickle of private pensions leaving this country due to tax incentives in other parts of Europe. Tell people if they own a home or a private pension here they get no state pension? They notionally sell the home to their kids, pop the private pension into a Portuguese investment fund and draw down the state pension plus their investment dividends. How does that help anyone except fund manager taking their cut.[/quote]

We have workers paying huge chunks of their salaries in rent to institutional landlords which have shareholders based internationally outside of Ireland who get these salaries into their pockets tax free. This is a bigger issue than what you have highlighted but the only reason it is not seemingly as pressing is because we don't have the voices in the ear of the high ranking civil servants and their bosses in the Dept of Finance. It should bring down the government the fact that the tax incentives to institutionals has not been suppressed, three years past their need.

Ha Long Bay

Assetbacked wrote: »

40 years, worked all their life etc. Taking the attitude that "they're old, you can't touch them" ignores the reality that things change. There was a recession caused by excessive lending, not contributed to in any way by young people yet they are saddled with the debt burden for decades. That's not fair but it's necessary.

Similarly, house prices have shot up hundreds of percent in the last few decades. All this wealth needs to be taken back into the economy someway as we live in a progressive tax system which means those that have more generally contribute more. There is no denying that house prices are far too expensive and it is dead money for the most part to pump it into land and property. There is money there and serious inequality between those that own property and those that don't, it's as simple as that. Lose your selfish attitude of "pull up the ladder", it's tiring.

I didn't take any attitude I just asked a question why you thought someone who paid into the system for many years did not deserve to get a fraction of that back through the contributory pension.

pwurple

Assetbacked wrote: »

We have workers paying huge chunks of their salaries in rent to institutional landlords which have shareholders based internationally outside of Ireland who get these salaries into their pockets tax free. This is a bigger issue than what you have highlighted but the only reason it is not seemingly as pressing is because we don't have the voices in the ear of the high ranking civil servants and their bosses in the Dept of Finance. It should bring down the government the fact that the tax incentives to institutionals has not been suppressed, three years past their need.

I think we agree... my point was Ireland doesn’t exist in a vacuum. When you make something financially problematic here, people will take their ball (of money) and go elsewhere.

It doesn’t even need to be institutional large landlords in your example for goodness sake. I know a guy with just two properties, who moved his tax base from shaggin’ dungarven to the Isle of Man over the change in taxes on accommodation based income now. These are ordinary people, taking reactive steps to idiotic tax environments.

Despite rents being at an all time high, and tax on them being at an all time high, the exchequer income from that sector is dropping. Funny that eh?

Multiply that up now a good bit for stripping away pensions, and see where we end up.


It is a fairly silly idea to means test pensions for the elderly. That group is ultra mobile. No jobs tying them here, off they head to the sunshine. You chase away the money. I wish the people making economic decisions had at the very least an economics undergrad degree. Or even a leaving cert in it.