Sky Vs ComReg

Johnboy1951

In Jan (I think) this year Sky entered a case against the ComReg decision regarding the charges to be imposed when a customer changes provider.

When I contracted for my first FTTH connection the charge for changing provider at the end of contract was €2.50.
This naturally came into my calculations and plans and eventual decision on who to do my first contract with.

I paid ~€100 for installation at that time.

Since Jan 2019, that €2.50 has risen to €170 in one jump, by this ComReg decision that Sky are challenging.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/sky-sues-comreg-over-decision-on-access-to-eircom-infrastructure-1.3765651

What does it mean to the consumer?

It means for me that instead of paying €2.50 to change provider I will now be required to pay much more.
Some provider are charging ~€100, others about half that and I think some others about double that!

Some providers continue to absorb part of this charge .... but we can be fairly sure it is spread over the cost of the monthly sub so they can bring it back in.
In which case the consumer pays it ..... again!

There are 6 month contracts available, so should a customer change provider every 6 months they pay an average of ~€200 initially and the balance included in their monthly subscription.

Where does all this money go?
From what I can gather it is all paid to Eircom by the ISPs who collect if from the consumers, via the two payment schemes outlined above.

Besides the outrage at the charge, there are two question that remain for me .....

1. Is there to be any end to this charge per 'customer change of provider', or is Eircom destined to receive €170 for every change for ever more (while their fibre exists)?

2. Is there any news or update on that court case linked above? My searching did not throw up anything of interest ... possibly my own limitations.

Looking at the long term, with a user changing provider every year or so, they could easily pay up front ~€1,000 plus the balance on the subscription ...... so ~€1,700.

IMO, this is not fair, nor equitable.

From what I have read Eir themselves came up with a much more equitable solution, where the total cost would be paid over some 10 years, and a reducing amount passed on to each new provider during that time.
ComReg refused that apparently and decided on this one which hammers the customer who wants to leave a provider who does not suit their needs.
Those reasons could be many and are irrelevant really.

So if anyone can answer either of the questions posed I would be grateful, thanks.

tsue921i8wljb3

1) From the notice posted by Comreg:

Eircom proposed, subject to ComReg’s agreement, to implement the charge of €170 from 1 January 2019. Eircom has further proposed that it will charge this price for at least 5 years.

So, unless Comreg see fit to intervene or the Commercial Court overturns it, it seems to be €170 until 2024. I assume when there are a large number of FTTH connections that Comreg would re-examine this and make it more advantageous for switching.

2) The Court search page has affidavits listed as 1st August so it seems they are still gathering opinions from those involved plus outside experts. I don't think these proceedings move particularly quickly.

You can find the case by entering 2018 for the year and Sky as the surname on:

http://highcourtsearch.courts.ie/hcslive/cslogin

Johnboy1951

Thanks Navi for the information and pointer to the ongoing court proceedings.

It appears to be listed again for 15/10/2019.
I suppose it could be adjourned once again at that time. There is nothing new to be known at this time.

it will charge this price for at least 5 years.

I would not care to bet on the charge ending as suddenly as it begun in 2024

If it does that should put late adopters of FTTH at a great advantage.
All those who took the service before will have paid for their connections in full, apparently.

I don't know how they can justify this scheme ....... oh wait! they (ComReg) have no need to justify it to the consumer!

Yeah, the whole thing has me peed off.

The Cush

This was discussed over on the main FTTH tread back in June

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110476629#post110476629

Links
- Comreg Dec 2016: Appeal by Sky in relation to WLA and WCA Markets
- High Court - Sky Ireland Ltd -v- Commission for Communications Regulation - Record No: 2018/459 MCA

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

This was discussed over on the main FTTH tread back in June

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110476629#post110476629

Links
- Comreg Dec 2016: Appeal by Sky in relation to WLA and WCA Markets
- High Court - Sky Ireland Ltd -v- Commission for Communications Regulation - Record No: 2018/459 MCA

Yes and in view of that new condition now beginning to affect those who entered a contract when the charge was €2.50 to change provider, are now nearing the end of their contracts, I believe this deserves a thread of its own.
Maybe the thread title could be amended somewhat .... but the subject does deserve its own thread IMO.

STB.

I'd be very surprised if Sky didn't win their case.


If they don't, Sky will head over to the Competition Authority and allege that barriers are being placed in their way.


A 7000% increase. Are they asleep in Comreg ?

Johnboy1951

STB. wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if Sky didn't win their case.


If they don't, Sky will head over to the Competition Authority and allege that barriers are being placed in their way.


A 7000% increase. Are they asleep in Comreg ?

Sleeping? Dunno ...... but from a consumers point of view they have screwed us into the ground!

.... and I thought they were supposed to promote competition for the benefit of the consumer ......

ED E

Sky aren't entirely innocent, their cheeky way of never paying install fees caused this.

tsue921i8wljb3

I was reading the transcript of the DCCAE officials July appearance at the Communications Committee. This subject came up. Fergal Mulligan, programme director of the NBP, made the following quotes:

However I understand that the new Eircom model, which ComReg has seen but not intervened on, allows Eircom to get a connection fee of up to €460 from the consumer. That is under a standard connection model. The average rate of switching, say from Vodafone to Sky, is 42 months. Over the next ten years people will generally switch operators. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission and ComReg will welcome that. People want to switch and it is good for competition. However it means that most homes will end up paying €460, not €170.

Based on what ComReg has communicated to us and these are the ComReg documents so I think Eircom would not disagree, the current connection model allows for multiple €170 fees up to the figure €460. Consequently, one cannot charge somebody €170 four or five times, if the figure has gone over the €460. The figure is capped at €460.

As far as I can see from reading the documents he is completely wrong about this. I don't believe there is any €460 "cap". In fact one of the reasons for Comreg rejecting the alternative eir proposal was the fact that operators could not track when connections were made. How then are they to track how many times a particular customer has incurred a €170 charge?

Johnboy1951

That was a BS excuse from Comreg.
If providers can include phone provision and charges for calls etc etc then they would have no difficulty at all including a running balance of the outstanding amount due.

I have not been able to make any sense at all of the ComReg decisioin.

STB.

ED E wrote: »

Sky aren't entirely innocent, their cheeky way of never paying install fees caused this.

What do you mean ?

recyclebin

STB. wrote: »

What do you mean ?

A lot of customers switched to Sky after their initial contract was up. This meant that the company who they had initial contract with absorbed all the installation cost. Sky didn't have to do anything so hoovered up the profits from other company's work.

recyclebin

Won't the NBP have a different switching cost too? They will have to sort this out once and for all and come to a common cost structure for everyone.

ED E

recyclebin wrote: »

A lot of customers switched to Sky after their initial contract was up. This meant that the company who they had initial contract with absorbed all the installation cost. Sky didn't have to do anything so hoovered up the profits from other company's work.

Everyone else offered the new products within a few months, sky waited the guts of two years to specifically facilitate the above.

tsue921i8wljb3

recyclebin wrote: »

Won't the NBP have a different switching cost too? They will have to sort this out once and for all and come to a common cost structure for everyone.

This has nothing to do with the NBP. Comreg will have no say in NBP regulation. It falls under the Department's remit. It is rumoured that the NBP switching fee will be nominal as would be expected as they have a reduced initial connection fee.

ED E wrote: »

Everyone else offered the new products within a few months, sky waited the guts of two years to specifically facilitate the above.

You're being kind to Vodafone who also boycotted the network for nearly as long. They and Sky both complained about connection charges being too high at €270. Now it is €170 and they are both still complaining as Vodafone seem to be party to this action.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/high-prices-force-firms-to-boycott-eirs-rural-network-36558816.html

ED E

Not for FTTC, VF were on board quicksharp after the trials ended. At least that's my recollection. They were slower with FTTH.

tsue921i8wljb3

ED E wrote: »

Not for FTTC, VF were on board quicksharp after the trials ended. At least that's my recollection. They were slower with FTTH.

This case is all about FTTH though. The FTTC switch charge is still €2.50.

STB.

recyclebin wrote: »

A lot of customers switched to Sky after their initial contract was up. This meant that the company who they had initial contract with absorbed all the installation cost. Sky didn't have to do anything so hoovered up the profits from other company's work.

So Eir never received any government funding for their rollout of fibre around the country. It was always in my mind that they had. That's fair enough. But Eir knew that the infrastructure would be opened up and from what they had created (ie build an infrastructure outside a government contract). So I guess it comes down what is fair reclaim and who is willing to reabsorb some of those costs that they seek to reclaim.


I assume the price of switching is open and transparent and that the connections fees are not being passed on as an afterthought or expectation by the reseller.

Johnboy1951

STB. wrote: »

So Eir never received any government funding for their rollout of fibre around the country. It was always in my mind that they had. That's fair enough. But Eir knew that the infrastructure would be opened up and from what they had created (ie build an infrastructure outside a government contract). So I guess it comes down what is fair reclaim and who is willing to reabsorb some of those costs that they seek to reclaim.


I assume the price of switching is open and transparent and that the connections fees are not being passed on as an afterthought or expectation by the reseller.

The use of the fibre by all providers is subject to a charge from Eircom/openeir, and this price is regulated.

A connection cost is a separate item ...... the physical connection from DP to premises.

It is this connection charge that is the main subject of this thread.

As it is presently in place, over some years I might well be forced to pay that actual cost multiple times, depending on how often I choose to change provider.

My initial connection cost was alleged to have been paid in full, by a combination of a €100 payment by me to Eir plus Eir's willingness to take on the balance.
When I signed the contract, the switch provider charge was €2.50.

One year later, to switch I am expected to pay another €100.
Next year should I want to switch again ..... another €100

This scheme was forced in by ComReg ...... of course Eircom is delighted!
But it was not their doing .... this was ComReg making the decision.
The 'reason' they gave was utter nonsense ...... the ISPs being incapable of keeping a running total of the amount outstanding for the connection, so it would be shown to the user on their bill. Utter tripe!

I sincerely hope that the Sky/Vodafone challenge succeeds.

What I would like to see is a once off declaration of the cost of the connection to the consumer without any fudging of figures like has gone one over the past few years.

If that was say €500 and the expected lifespan was 10 years that is €50 per year per connection for 10 years.
That could very easily be shown as a separate item on the monthly bill.

tsue921i8wljb3

Comreg have posted an information notice following the settlement of the case. It seems to me to be a complete smackdown for Sky, who agreed to withdraw their appeal in return for a consultation in Q1 2020 that will amongst other things:

The consultation will address the design and costs associated with the provision of a copper and fibre access network, and prices for a number of existing access products. The consultation will consider the appropriate level of costs of FTTH connections and migrations. At the same time, ComReg will also, by way of a call for inputs, seek views on the market impact of the existing prices and having regard to those views, will consider expeditiously the relationship between connection, migration and rental charges in the recovery of those costs and will as soon as reasonably practicable thereafter assess whether it is appropriate to consult on price control obligations for FTTH connection and migration charges.

Depending on the outcome of that and how long these things generally take it seems the €170 fee is here for the foreseeable future.

recyclebin

That paints a different picture to the story in the independent a couple of days ago. Normally when there is a settlement you would think Sky got something but it looks like they haven't got anything so far.

At least the comreg statement mentions cost of installation and migration so they might separate these costs up. Maybe front load the install cost and then reduce migration cost?

joe_99

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/sky-settles-dispute-with-comreg-over-eircom-broadband-charges-1.4053140

Irish Times have a good summary here. Looks like a win for Sky.

recyclebin

That's behind a pay wall on the Irish Times website. What are the main details?

tsue921i8wljb3

joe_99 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/sky-settles-dispute-with-comreg-over-eircom-broadband-charges-1.4053140

Irish Times have a good summary here. Looks like a win for Sky.

Wow, a consultation with no fixed outcome or no fixed timeframe on a decision that is less than 11 months old. Comreg have not even agreed to look at price obligations for FTTH.