Those caught with drugs won't face criminal conviction

drunkmonkey

A radical 'three-strike' plan that will see people caught with small amounts of illegal drugs avoid criminal conviction on the first and second occasion but face the courts on the third will be unveiled by the Government today.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/those-caught-with-drugs-wont-face-criminal-conviction-until-third-offence-under-radical-threestrike-plan-38367865.html

OldGoat

I don't get this 3 strike thing. In law if something is not criminal on the first occasion nor criminal on the second occasion then how can it be criminal on any subsequent occasions?
Is it still a criminal offence to purchase an ounce of hash? Can I now purchase a bulk lot of weed to keep the prices down as long as I only have it for personal use? Does sharing with my friends a smoke of my personal stash invalidate the 'personal' rule?
I'm looking forward to reading the statutes for this new policy.

All in all it's just seems like clutter leading to obfuscation rather that making an actual attempt at decriminalising some drugs.

drunkmonkey

They should have been decriminalised but a retired Garda over the strategy seems to have shoved in the boot to stop it happening. So we get this mess, Hippy's on trolleys.
It's pretty much open season for drugs after today. Can't wait to see where the draw the line on what is personal and not.

ILoveYourVibes

Step in the right direction very confusing though. Not sure its based in reality. Decriminalizing would be better.

Larsso30

Decriminalising cannabis makes far for sense

Deebles McBeebles

Would an arseful be considered a "small amount"?

Roddy23

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Would an arseful be considered a "small amount"?

Depends how big your arse is

_Kaiser_

And here we have the B story intended to distract from the attempt to tax people for an entertainment service they may not use or even be able to access.

But this will be hailed by the "yoof" as a valuable step forward towards the decriminalisation of "harmless" drugs and garner some social media kudos.

Well played FG

nthclare

I suppose this will be great news for the small fraction of the squeezed middle who are intrepid weekend recreational snorters.

So for whomever is a recreational sherbet hoover you're going to get a free pass, Kudos to the gubberment...

Ye can party away without the fear of getting in trouble or losing your job's.

Burn the midnight oil again and again....

Orwellmerchant

Usually people don't get convicted on their first time anyway. Where will the leniency end ?

Standman

...a person caught by gardaí in possession of an amount of drugs deemed to be for personal use will be referred to the HSE for screening and intervention.

Definitely a step in the right direction, but still fucking stupid. Imagine being sent for a health screening because you're caught with a joint, while the guy down the road is on his fifth pint and smoking his 15th fag of the day without a bother.

drunkmonkey

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

And here we have the B story intended to distract from the attempt to tax people for an entertainment service they may not use or even be able to access.

I think you have it the wrong way around, this is the one your meant to be distracted from. We've pretty much leaglised drugs and nobody's batted an eye lid.

Anto Lynch

Good move. Ive seen fellas in court after been caught with enough for a joint. What a waste of time.

Wanderer78

Just legalise it ffs, its a health issue

mad muffin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think you have it the wrong way around, this is the one your meant to be distracted from. We've pretty much leaglised drugs and nobody's batted an eye lid.

The whole thing is a distraction from the fact that FG are still in government.

Deebles McBeebles

What are the government going to do about my bloody nose after a night on the sneachta? I demand free nasal care.

drunkmonkey

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Good move. Ive seen fellas in court after been caught with enough for a joint. What a waste of time.

I was there one day and the guards had used sellotape to pick crumbs off the floor of his car, the chap was done for about €4 worth.

xckjoo

Would be better if they moved towards full legalisation and regulated industry. We're going to end up with a hodge-podge of laws that result in drugs still being run by criminal gangs and having no fear of prosecution.

nthclare

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Good move. Ive seen fellas in court after been caught with enough for a joint. What a waste of time.

I was there one day and the guards had used sellotape to pick crumbs off the floor of his car, the chap was done for about €4 worth.

Yet the attractive socialite's are hoovering up bag's of coke at weekends and Living it up in nice pads.
The untouchables, huh oh I'd say there's a good book to be wrote about the so called z list celebs.

And the poor guy who gets caught with a few crumbs is getting lynched because he's known to the guard's or just a bit of a pup.

It's quite easy to see who's getting away with the illicit drug abuse.

Being a non drinker or non drug user doesn't give me the ownership of virtual signalling I'm no saint.

But it would be great to see these knobs snorting coke being made an example of.

No doubt they'll say they've done a stint of 3 months in rehab and come from a great background and are changing their ways and in no time they'll be back to square one again.

It's a great country lol

Cookie_Monster

Lol, that sure worry the 500+ conviction crowd.
Why even bother proposing something like this when the judiciary disregard current punishment guidelines already, why would they bother enforcing this properly?

drunkmonkey

Department of Health (@roinnslainte) tweeted at 11:01 am on Fri, Aug 02, 2019:
NEW: The Government has announced significant reforms to the possession of drugs for personal use.

A health-led approach to drug use in Ireland will now be adopted.

@SimonHarrisTD @CharlieFlanagan @CByrneTD @DeptJusticeIRL @HSELive @merrionstreet https://t.co/cp5wVwpViF
(https://twitter.com/roinnslainte/status/1157229987692519424?s=03)

Get the official Twitter app at https://twitter.com/download?s=13

MrFresh

Step in the right direction. Always seems ridiculous that simple possession was not eligible for an adult caution. You get three chances with booze related offences too. Adult caution, fixed charge penalty then court.

drunkmonkey

Very little talk about it, any rules in place, is it in operation now, i.e caught with any types of drugs you just go for a chat with the HSE?

riclad

This is common sense . its a waste of time for gardai to arrest someone with
10 euros, worth of hash.We have a small amount of prison cell,s ,
only drug dealers should be brought to court or sent to jail.
We need more gardai on the streets ,
not going to court to give evidence about someone having a small amount drugs for personal use .
maybe they should follow american states ,legalise marijuana dispensarys and tax it,like cigarettes .

MrFresh

riclad wrote: »

This is common sense . its a waste of time for gardai to arrest someone with
10 euros, worth of hash.We have a small amount of prison cell,s ,
only drug dealers should be brought to court or sent to jail.
We need more gardai on the streets ,
not going to court to give evidence about someone having a small amount drugs for personal use .
maybe they should follow american states ,legalise marijuana dispensarys and tax it,like cigarettes .

You don't get arrested for 10 euro worth of hash. At worst, you get brought to the station for a search and then released. You don't go to prison for 10 euro worth of hash. Most simple possession cases are dealt with by summons or by court presenters so their draw on Garda manpower is minimal.

the dark phantom

MrFresh wrote: »

You don't get arrested for 10 euro worth of hash. At worst, you get brought to the station for a search and then released. You don't go to prison for 10 euro worth of hash. Most simple possession cases are dealt with by summons or by court presenters so their draw on Garda manpower is minimal.

I'm calling crap on your lie, Iv been inside for less than 5 Euro of Hash.

drunkmonkey

MrFresh wrote: »

You don't get arrested for 10 euro worth of hash. At worst, you get brought to the station for a search and then released.

Loads of examples just like this...


Eoin Kelleher (@eoinyk) tweeted at 0:06 pm on Tue, Oct 23, 2018:
In Thurles District Court, & there's a prosecution for €3 worth of cannabis. €3! Seriously...
(https://twitter.com/eoinyk/status/1054690581010673664?s=03)

igCorcaigh

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They should have been decriminalised but a retired Garda over the strategy seems to have shoved in the boot to stop it happening.

So much for it being health led then.
Two people in the group had "experience of drugs". But overruled by a retired garda. So what was the point?

MrFresh

the dark phantom wrote: »

I'm calling crap on your lie, Iv been inside for less than 5 Euro of Hash.

A judge sentanced you to prison time for a fiver of hash? No other charges,no fine, no probation, no community service, no outstanding warrants. Just straight to jail after you were found guilty?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Loads of examples just like this...


Eoin Kelleher (@eoinyk) tweeted at 0:06 pm on Tue, Oct 23, 2018:
In Thurles District Court, & there's a prosecution for €3 worth of cannabis. €3! Seriously...
(https://twitter.com/eoinyk/status/1054690581010673664?s=03)

Not sure what point you are trying to make there. Can you clarify?

drunkmonkey

igCorcaigh wrote: »

So much for it being health led then.
Two people in the group had "experience of drugs". But overruled by a retired garda. So what was the point?

It's close enough to Legalisation, a chat with the HSE is a joke, it's a compromise to the retired Garda, I don't think it's workable in practice which will become apparent and they'll review it again.

Sierra Oscar

OldGoat wrote: »

I don't get this 3 strike thing. In law if something is not criminal on the first occasion nor criminal on the second occasion then how can it be criminal on any subsequent occasions?

Well our justice system has done just this for over 13 years following the introduction of the Adult Caution Scheme. Gardaí have the option not to prosecute people for certain criminal offences, such as public order, so long as specific conditions are met such as admitting the crime and the person shows some sense of remorse.

This is essentially just extending the Adult Caution Scheme to personal possession drug offences with an additional layer relating to sending people down a healthcare path.

drunkmonkey

MrFresh wrote: »

Not sure what point you are trying to make there. Can you clarify?

That you can be arrested and brought before a judge for €3 worth of cannabis. It's not necessarily done via summons to court.

drunkmonkey

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This is essentially just extending the Adult Caution Scheme to personal possession drug offences with an additional layer relating to sending people down a healthcare path.

They haven't said what it is personal and what's not and which drugs there referring to. I'd assume it's everything which is a bit odd.

suicide_circus

such an irish solution.

although threatening people with a mandatory visit to the HSE may scare them straight!

MrFresh

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That you can be arrested and brought before a judge for €3 worth of cannabis. It's not necessarily done via summons to court.

That tweet doesn't mention an arrest though.

Sierra Oscar

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They haven't said what it is personal and what's not and which drugs there referring to. I'd assume it's everything which is a bit odd.

I’m assuming it’s for Section 3 Offences of the Misuse of Drugs Act, 1977. That relates to personal possession of all controlled drugs set out in the principle Act - i.e. all illegal drugs.

The Gardaí already differentiate between what’s personal possession and what’s possession with intent to supply. I’d imagine this will be fairly straightfward and will simply involve extending the Adult Caution Scheme to Section 3 offences.

drunkmonkey

It's a pretty significant change, a lot more liberal than it looks.

MrFresh

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's a pretty significant change, a lot more liberal than it looks.

Only for first and second time offenders though. It's not going to affect the real problem very much.

drunkmonkey

MrFresh wrote: »

Only for first and second time offenders though. It's not going to affect the real problem very much.

It's going to free up a lot of Garda time, that'll effect the main problem.

Ash.J.Williams

OldGoat wrote: »

I don't get this 3 strike thing. In law if something is not criminal on the first occasion nor criminal on the second occasion then how can it be criminal on any subsequent occasions?
Is it still a criminal offence to purchase an ounce of hash? Can I now purchase a bulk lot of weed to keep the prices down as long as I only have it for personal use? Does sharing with my friends a smoke of my personal stash invalidate the 'personal' rule?
I'm looking forward to reading the statutes for this new policy.

All in all it's just seems like clutter leading to obfuscation rather that making an actual attempt at decriminalising some drugs.

Its really not that difficult to understand

Ash.J.Williams

MrFresh wrote: »

Only for first and second time offenders though. It's not going to affect the real problem very much.

First time offender having to have a discussion with a professional is highly significant

drunkmonkey

Where does growing your own cannabis for personal use fall into this as it seems to usually attract 2 charges, one for the possession (which now gets you sent to the HSE) and the other is cultivation of cannabis.

STB.

MrFresh wrote: »

You don't get arrested for 10 euro worth of hash. At worst, you get brought to the station for a search and then released. You don't go to prison for 10 euro worth of hash. Most simple possession cases are dealt with by summons or by court presenters so their draw on Garda manpower is minimal.

What a load of nonsense. People regularly end up before the courts for negligible amounts of cannabis.

Possession of cannabis is still a criminal offence and it is an arrestable offence. Whether the Garda use their discretion or not to arrest, 75% of drugs offences that end up in the courts are for possession. 70% of possessions are for cannabis. An inordinate amount of time by AGS and the judiciary is taken up for a "drug" that we have been slow to legalise and/or decriminalise. Time that could be better spent elsewhere.

This latest stunt whereby the a Department has to suggest an alternative approach for the possession of illegal drugs for personal use in the absence of any action following Varadkar's promises over a year ago that they were looking at the decriminalisation of cannabis along the lines of Canada's model.

MrFresh

STB. wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. People regularly end up before the courts for negligible amounts of cannabis.

Possession of cannabis is still a criminal offence and it is an arrestable offence. Whether the Garda use their discretion or not to arrest, 75% of drugs offences that end up in the courts are for possession. 70% of possessions are for cannabis. An inordinate amount of time by AGS and the judiciary is taken up for a "drug" that we have been slow to legalise and/or decriminalise. Time that could be better spent elsewhere.

This latest stunt whereby the a Department has to suggest an alternative approach for the possession of illegal drugs for personal use in the absence of any action following Varadkar's promises over a year ago that they were looking at the decriminalisation of cannabis along the lines of Canada's model.

People seem to be arguing against something I didn't say. I never said people don't end up before courts for possession of cannabis.

dasdog

Seems like a particularly Irish solution. I'd like to know how many people caught in possession of chemical "whatever-you-were-caught-with" are chemical addicts that need to be referred to HSE for their world renowned treatment.

While it's welcome to see realisation that the current laws are antiquated and spastic they've decided on a half arsed approach that will introduce ambiguity and solve nothing.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Well the prisons are full to capacity. So in the absence of building more prisons. Drug liberalisation is the only logical solution to this social issue.

Treating drug usage as a mental health issue will almost certainly lead to better outcomes for society as a whole, and also for the individual.
Portugal has drastically reduced the amount of heroin users and drug overdoses in the past decade. Holland has a lower level of cannabis usage than many other European countries where it is illegal.

Giving people criminal records for simple possession is wrong on a moral level but also has a negative effect on society.

Making drugs illegal has not made them less available.

The Drugs Squad should focus their resources and attention at the big fish that have been the source for most of the gangland murders in Ireland.

MrFresh

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Well the prisons are full to capacity. So in the absence of building more prisons. Drug liberalisation is the only logical solution to this social issue.

Treating drug usage as a mental health issue will almost certainly lead to better outcomes for society as a whole, and also for the individual.
Portugal has drastically reduced the amount of heroin users and drug overdoses in the past decade. Holland has a lower level of cannabis usage than many other European countries where it is illegal.

Giving people criminal records for simple possession is wrong on a moral level but also has a negative effect on society.

Making drugs illegal has not made them less available.

The Drugs Squad should focus their resources and attention at the big fish that have been the source for most of the gangland murders in Ireland.

That's what they do.

Cushie Butterfield

nthclare wrote: »

Ye can party away without the fear of getting in trouble or losing your job's.

Burn the midnight oil again and again....

Which was the current situation up to this anyway, the only difference will be now they can get caught twice before any serious repercussions but their cards will have been marked.

So it's definitely not a case of partying away without the fear of getting in trouble or losing their jobs.

I see this as a good thing for the young & foolish (most people have been young & foolish in one way or another). Just look at the Irish guy living in the USA recently in the news done for possession years ago: a guy with a wife & young kids running his own business whose lives have all been shattered over a foolish mistake years ago.

The notion that this is a free pass for drug users is not the case as far as I can see.

On a side note the HSE is on its knees, so how they'll be able to cope with all these extra referrals is unrealistic imo - more backlogs I suppose.

skooterblue2

the dark phantom wrote: »

I'm calling crap on your lie, Iv been inside for less than 5 Euro of Hash.

you must have had either one **** lawyer or you started talking.

Danzy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

A radical 'three-strike' plan that will see people caught with small amounts of illegal drugs avoid criminal conviction on the first and second occasion but face the courts on the third will be unveiled by the Government today.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/those-caught-with-drugs-wont-face-criminal-conviction-until-third-offence-under-radical-threestrike-plan-38367865.html

Bit of reality at last.

Too much Garda time etc wasted on small possession charges.

the dark phantom

skooterblue2 wrote: »

you must have had either one **** lawyer or you started talking.

I was wrong in the original post so apologies to the poster, I was actually brought to prison for not paying the fine over the 5 euro worth of hash, Guards valued it at 5 euro it was actually a makings worth no more than 2/3 euro.

I've a handful of cannabis convictions, 5 in under 14 years.. 1 joint 3 makings 1 half ounce / all hash. Sent straight in for the half ounce and twice for not paying the fines. Wasn't kept in long only did 1 night for the half ounce hash.