Cafe toilets/ lack of toilets, St Stephen's Green Shopping Centre -- legal?

I rarely bring my daughter into town, because she's a toddler and there's a lack of changing/ toilet facilities for parents with kids.

Today we were buying groceries in Dunnes in St Stephen's Green Shopping Centre, and we stopped by the food area for coffee and some fruit (the coffee was for me). The area has eat-in seating for about 60 people, maybe more.

I was under the impression that there were rules about seating areas, where food and beverages are served, having some toilet facilities for customers. My daughter needed to use the toilet, and I asked a counter assistant where the bathroom was. She told me it was three floors up, and that there are no other toilets in the Shopping Centre.

Walking upstairs with this toddler, I was surprised at the amount of cafes there are with no toilets (that I could see), and then the fact that the toilets were pay-to-use.

Fortunately, I had change, but I often don't carry cash on me.

Is it legal that restaurants and cafes can operate in this way, with hundreds of customers using one single toilet area -- which are pretty small, by the way -- and often have queues, as they had today?

I happen to part-own a cafe in the countryside, and we were advised to built a minimum number of cubicles/ urinals as a proportion of our customer seating. I cannot understand how this can be legal or even appropriate, in terms of customer service. It certainly cannot be legal to charge entry?

imme

There's no obligation to provide free toilets.

There's no obligation to provide paid toilets.

It might be a condition of a contemporary planning application that toilets would be part of a development.

It is customer unfriendly, the situation of only having toilets in the shopping centre services area and not elsewhere.

Dunnes used to have toilets.

radiotrickster

There's an app called crAPP that gives you the codes for shops toilets around the city, if you're ever stuck.

imme

imme wrote: »

There's no obligation to provide free toilets.

There's no obligation to provide paid toilets.

It might be a condition of a contemporary planning application that toilets would be part of a development.

It is customer unfriendly, the situation of only having toilets in the shopping centre services area and not elsewhere.

Dunnes used to have toilets.

Well they don't now, at least not in the dining area at St Stephens Green, which as I have said seats at least 60 people.

I am very surprised to read that you can serve food and drinks to dozens of people and not have to provide a single toilet, and that a dozen outlets in the same development have no such requirement either.

We were given strict instructions on opening our business about public toilet facilities. Dunnes and others might have opened before those regs existed, but surely their subsequent development falls under them?

BarryD2

Have little time for lack of toilets in public places or commercial developments that depend of public footfall.

I think your best bet is to contact the managers/ owners of such outlets, advise them that you had a negative customer experience. If they don't come up with a satisfactory explanation, then simply state that you will advise your family, friends and friends of friends of the situation. That'll focus a few minds.

Sinus pain

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1988/si/147/made/en/print

Maybe as it’s all under one roof it’s acceptable? There are cafes in Ilac and Jervis as well that don’t have their own toilets

Sinus pain

Sinus pain wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1988/si/147/made/en/print

Maybe as it’s all under one roof it’s acceptable? There are cafes in Ilac and Jervis as well that don’t have their own toilets

That legislation may be out of date, I'm on a phone so can't readily check it.

But even if it's up to date, the washroom facilities in St Stephen's Green are wholly inadequate for the provisions of that SI, given the amount of customers who use the many dining facilities (with seating) throughout the centre.

mvt

Total lack of public toilets in Dublin, total cop out by Dublin city council & as usual accepted by the people who pay for the city to be run on their behalf.
Sometimes I despair...

No Bills

There is a separate toilet for toddlers beside the pay toilets on the top floor of St Stephen's Green Shopping Centre. 2 cubicals with mini toilets. They have changing facilities in there too.
If you think of Dundrum Shopping Centre, the individual cafes in the main building don't have their own toilets. The restaurants in the surrounding buildings do. It's true that Dundrum has a lot more communal toilets and that is probably to do with improved regulations.

Toilets attract junkies unfortunately.... Shoppers prefer no toilets to junkies

Gumbo

All cafes and food outlets can utilize the existing toilet provisions within the shopping Centre as their requirement to provide toilets. The only requirement is that’s there access to them. So accessible toilets require lifts etc if located on higher floors, and generally the shopping Centre has these already.

Completely normal.

Gumbo

mvt wrote: »

Total lack of public toilets in Dublin, total cop out by Dublin city council & as usual accepted by the people who pay for the city to be run on their behalf.
Sometimes I despair...

Privately owned shopping Centre.
Privately ran shopping Centre.
Private sector charge for the use of these toilets.

Yet you blame the council. Have some cop on.

noodler

Not a fan of the paid nature of the Stephen's green one but no issue with it being on the second floor.

That being said I'm a bloke and queues are smaller.

Corruptedmorals

That Dunnes did have toilets, more than 10 years ago. They were on the first floor where the kids section is now, as part of Timepiece cafe. They attracted junkies and the cleaning was more than they could handle so they got rid of them. Would have been long before what shops and places like McDonald's do now with the codes.

Supermarkets that are part of a shopping centre will not fall under the same rules as an independent coffee shop/restaurant or standalone supermarket. I do think the toilets badly need to be expanded even if that means eating into the exhibition space beside them. Genuinely awful in summer with hordes of tourists queueing but the baby changing facilities are really good.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Privately owned shopping Centre.
Privately ran shopping Centre.
Private sector charge for the use of these toilets.

Yet you blame the council. Have some cop on.

Hold your horses. I run a cafe, I (quite correctly) am obliged by my local council to provide toilets to a particular standard, and that's entirely appropriate.

Customers ought to have sanitary facilities, this is not too much to ask. It shouldn't even be a council requirement, but if it is, so be it.

JupiterKid

As a city Dublin falls way way below par when it comes to adequate toilet facilities. ALL cafes and restaurants should provide toilet facilities to customers. It’s basic decency.

Corruptedmorals

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

That Dunnes did have toilets, more than 10 years ago. They were on the first floor where the kids section is now, as part of Timepiece cafe. They attracted junkies and the cleaning was more than they could handle so they got rid of them. Would have been long before what shops and places like McDonald's do now with the codes.

Well, McDonalds have moved with the times, no code required. Brown Thomas don't even ask for a code.

I'm sorry if I sound like a crank, but this business of asking people (even people in wheelchairs, I assume?) to go three floors up and use (paid) washroom facilities is totally beyond what is acceptable in 2019.

Even Michael O'Leary wouldn't get away with this.

radiotrickster

radiotrickster wrote: »

There's an app called crAPP that gives you the codes for shops toilets around the city, if you're ever stuck.

1. I can't believe I actually checked...
2. I can't believe this actually exists :pac:

spurious

Cali_girl wrote: »

1. I can't believe I actually checked...
2. I can't believe this actually exists :pac:

I can't believe I downloaded and installed it.

GreeBo

The kids toilets are free in St Stephens Green...or at least I have never paid for them!

Gumbo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Hold your horses. I run a cafe, I (quite correctly) am obliged by my local council to provide toilets to a particular standard, and that's entirely appropriate.

Customers ought to have sanitary facilities, this is not too much to ask. It shouldn't even be a council requirement, but if it is, so be it.

Its a Building Regulation issue, not a Council requirement.
Is your Café independently situated, ie. out on its own? If so you must provide Sanitary Facilities in accordance with Technical Guidance Document Part G and TGD Part M.

If you were to locate your Café into an existing Shopping Centre, then you wouldn't have to provide these as you can demonstrate that the SC toilets are there t serve your customers

Gumbo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well, McDonalds have moved with the times, no code required. Brown Thomas don't even ask for a code.

I'm sorry if I sound like a crank, but this business of asking people (even people in wheelchairs, I assume?) to go three floors up and use (paid) washroom facilities is totally beyond what is acceptable in 2019.

Even Michael O'Leary wouldn't get away with this.

When was this SC built? It was in compliance with its requirements when built in 1988.
We didn't even have Building Regulations back then!

If they built it today, then a whole different set of Regulations would be in force. Would you enforce the new Regs onto existing properties?

If that's the case, you would have to upgrade your little Café to the current regs every time they changed.

red petal

Yes I agree, it's madness! Especially difficult for those with children or disabilities. Having to leave your food mid eating and having to rush up 3 floors and hope there is no queue when your child has an "emergency" is a terrible customer service experience.

Kintarō Hattori

spurious wrote: »

I can't believe I downloaded and installed it.

Is it any good?

cruizer101

kceire wrote: »

mvt wrote:

Total lack of public toilets in Dublin, total cop out by Dublin city council & as usual accepted by the people who pay for the city to be run on their behalf.
Sometimes I despair...

Privately owned shopping Centre.
Privately ran shopping Centre.
Private sector charge for the use of these toilets.

Yet you blame the council. Have some cop on.

Is the point not that the council are copping out by not providing any public toilets and instead relying on private businesses to supply them.

Corruptedmorals

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well, McDonalds have moved with the times, no code required. Brown Thomas don't even ask for a code.

I'm sorry if I sound like a crank, but this business of asking people (even people in wheelchairs, I assume?) to go three floors up and use (paid) washroom facilities is totally beyond what is acceptable in 2019.

Even Michael O'Leary wouldn't get away with this.

Brown Thomas has door staff in fairness to filter out as they please. McDonald's grafton street uses codes, so does Dunnes Henry Street. I agree the toilets aren't sufficient in the centre but I think that is the centre's problem, not Dunnes. And there's no easy fix given the age and type of building that it is and how hemmed in it is.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Its a Building Regulation issue, not a Council requirement.
Is your Café independently situated, ie. out on its own? If so you must provide Sanitary Facilities in accordance with Technical Guidance Document Part G and TGD Part M.

If you were to locate your Café into an existing Shopping Centre, then you wouldn't have to provide these as you can demonstrate that the SC toilets are there t serve your customers

Ah I see. And what about having to pay for those toilets? I can't see anything in the regs that provides for a fee.

There are also rules about a minimum number of toilets appropriate to the size and capacity of the premises. The washrooms in SSG seem a little on the small side, given that the centre can accommodate hundreds of diners at once.

kceire wrote: »

When was this SC built? It was in compliance with its requirements when built in 1988.
We didn't even have Building Regulations back then!

If they built it today, then a whole different set of Regulations would be in force. Would you enforce the new Regs onto existing properties?

Hmm, maybe, yes if the property is changed to accommodate more diners. In Dunnes, for example, there wasn't always such a large dining area. That change is fairly recent.

Gumbo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Ah I see. And what about having to pay for those toilets? I can't see anything in the regs that provides for a fee.

There are also rules about a minimum number of toilets appropriate to the size and capacity of the premises. The washrooms in SSG seem a little on the small side, given that the centre can accommodate hundreds of diners at once.

Hmm, maybe, yes if the property is changed to accommodate more diners. In Dunnes, for example, there wasn't always such a large dining area. That change is fairly recent.

Yes, it’s covered in the scale of provision requirements in TGD Part G and makes reference to BS6465 PART 1 from memory.

The requirements aren’t huge.

JupiterKid

Isn’t the Stephens Green SC due for a major refurbishment soon anyway?

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Yes, it’s covered in the scale of provision requirements in TGD Part G and makes reference to BS6465 PART 1 from memory.

The requirements aren’t huge.

From memory?

JupiterKid wrote: »

Isn’t the Stephens Green SC due for a major refurbishment soon anyway?

Yes, I've been hearing that for a few years, but I'm starting to think it's not going to happen. It could do with a bit of a refurb, even from an aesthetic viewpoint.

Gumbo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

From memory?

Yes, from my memory. I was typing from the sofa on my phone so I wasn't prepared to open the CIS Library to get the exact British Standard reference. I believe my memory was correct anyhow.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Yes, from my memory. I was typing from the sofa on my phone so I wasn't prepared to open the CIS Library to get the exact British Standard reference. I believe my memory was correct anyhow.

I guess you work in the area. I was somewhere between joking and bewildered that someone would know that code by heart, but it must be part of your profession; thanks for the info!

bingbong500

kceire wrote: »

Its a Building Regulation issue, not a Council requirement.
Is your Café independently situated, ie. out on its own? If so you must provide Sanitary Facilities in accordance with Technical Guidance Document Part G and TGD Part M.

If you were to locate your Café into an existing Shopping Centre, then you wouldn't have to provide these as you can demonstrate that the SC toilets are there t serve your customers

Who is responsible for enforcing the building regulations? Do you think maybe its the relevant council?
50 points if you finally got there!

Gumbo

bingbong500 wrote: »

Who is responsible for enforcing the building regulations? Do you think maybe its the relevant council?
50 points if you finally got there!

The Building Control Authority enforce the regulations as set out by the Department of Environment. Can I have my 50 points now please.

They are not Council Regulations as originally posted by another poster, if they were they would be bye laws

And furthermore, you cannot enforce building regulations onto a building built before the building regulations came into force

kceire

kceire wrote: »

And furthermore, you cannot enforce building regulations onto a building built before the building regulations came into force

What if the purposes of the building, or outlets within the building, have changed?

Surely that matters. Dunnes, for example, didn't always have that amount of seating for so many people (more than 60)

Gumbo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What if the purposes of the building, or outlets within the building, have changed?

Surely that matters. Dunnes, for example, didn't always have that amount of seating for so many people (more than 60)

If it goes through a material alteration, or a change of use you can enforce certain regulations on them. But they are still working within the confines of an existing building, so some requirements from the current Regs may not be able to be achieved.

riclad

Every shopping centre has a mcdonalds,s or burger king which has a toilet,
now mcdonalds has a code on every reciept.
except maybe the grafron st branch.
You put the code in to use the toilet ,every toilet had a door lock, with a
code input unit .
i presume its to stop junkies using the toilets .
i,m did not think a large restaurant can open without having a toilet
for public use.
Theres public toilets near the mcdonalds in the ilac centre ,
no receipt needed .theres always staff there ,at least one person all the time .
its run by the shopping centre staff .
I just read an article today , the title No shop,s , too many cafes, restaurants.
It says in dublin city centre many shops are closing ,dublin 2, etc
due to online shopping , many streets are just full of
cafes,restaurants .It said each restaurant has to get planning
permits from dublin city council before they can open .
I, would think a new restaurant would need to have toilets
to get permission to open .
When i say restaurant i mean a place that serves, dinners, lunch, breakfast
etc not just a place that sells tea or coffee .
People can buy everything online or go to a large shopping centre
with free parking .
The rent the landlords get from a cafe is smaller than the rent from
a bookshop or phone shop that was there in 2018 .

JupiterKid

On an aside, didn’t the owners of the Stephens Green Centre plan to give the place a complete refurbishment, which from a mock up pic I saw in the papers a couple of years ago involved getting rid of the white steel and glass look?

JupiterKid

JupiterKid wrote: »

On an aside, didn’t the owners of the Stephens Green Centre plan to give the place a complete refurbishment, which from a mock up pic I saw in the papers a couple of years ago involved getting rid of the white steel and glass look?

Im so surprised this hasn't happened already. The centre is perfectly poised to be a counterbalance to BTs at the other end of Grafton Street, accommodating good quality restaurants, cafés and boutiques, etc.

As things stand, the Centre is dingy and dilapidated. It looks like an oversized conservatory from the 1980s. It nerds a complete overhaul, and to be opened up to the park in front of it and views of the city. It could be a gold mine for its owners, whom I don't imagine are making a great deal of money from some dubious art exhibitions, key cutting, a Flying Tiger, "Wrestlemania", and several pretty grim cafés.

Apparently Jones Lang and Lasalle are the owners of the Centre, and they're not short of cash.

markpb

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Apparently Jones Lang and Lasalle are the owners of the Centre, and they're not short of cash.

JLL manage it, they don't own it. Irish Life owned 73% of it in 2015 but were planning to sell. I'm not sure what happened after.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

JLL manage it, they don't own it. Irish Life owned 73% of it in 2015 but were planning to sell. I'm not sure what happened after.

You're quite right. I made the fatal mistake of believing Wikipedia!

I see an IT article announcing the sale, but can't see whether there was any external buyer, or whether the minority owner took over the entire building. I suspect no sale went ahead.

Irish Life is another cash/liquidity -rich organisation, so again it's difficult to understand the unwillingness to improve the income yield from the building, by closing it for say two years and completely reforming it.

Muahahaha

JupiterKid wrote: »

On an aside, didn’t the owners of the Stephens Green Centre plan to give the place a complete refurbishment, which from a mock up pic I saw in the papers a couple of years ago involved getting rid of the white steel and glass look?

Yeah there was plans afoot a back in 2015 for an overhaul, havent heard anything since. Either way the SSG centre has some amount of dead space from ground level up to the roof, they could fit a in good few more shops if they filled this in which I presume is the plan.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/st-stephen-s-green-centre-revamp-to-begin-soon-1.2455012

On the subject of toilets- does anyone come across business that seem to have their toilets out of order a lot of the time? One Im thinking of is Ricks burgers on Dame St, I dont go in often anymore but when I did it always seemed 50/50 whether or not the toilets were open. Id have thought it is breaking some law/regulation to not have hand washing facilities in a place that is serving food but to me it seems like they get away with it.

markpb

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah there was plans afoot a back in 2015 for an overhaul, havent heard anything since. Either way the SSG centre has some amount of dead space from ground level up to the roof, they could fit a in good few more shops if they filled this in which I presume is the plan.

I read somewhere else that the problem with SSG is that the units are quite small, even if they combine several units. The companies showing interest in moving into Ireland (and who could pay the most rent) have no interest in small units.

Gumbo

riclad wrote: »

Every shopping centre has a mcdonalds,s or burger king which has a toilet,
now mcdonalds has a code on every reciept.
except maybe the grafron st branch.
You put the code in to use the toilet ,every toilet had a door lock, with a
code input unit .
i presume its to stop junkies using the toilets .
i,m did not think a large restaurant can open without having a toilet
for public use.
Theres public toilets near the mcdonalds in the ilac centre ,
no receipt needed .theres always staff there ,at least one person all the time .
its run by the shopping centre staff .
I just read an article today , the title No shop,s , too many cafes, restaurants.
It says in dublin city centre many shops are closing ,dublin 2, etc
due to online shopping , many streets are just full of
cafes,restaurants .It said each restaurant has to get planning
permits from dublin city council before they can open .
I, would think a new restaurant would need to have toilets
to get permission to open .
When i say restaurant i mean a place that serves, dinners, lunch, breakfast
etc not just a place that sells tea or coffee .
People can buy everything online or go to a large shopping centre
with free parking .
The rent the landlords get from a cafe is smaller than the rent from
a bookshop or phone shop that was there in 2018 .

Toilets are required under the regulations for users of that establishment. They are not required for the general public.

Kittykat67

radiotrickster wrote: »

There's an app called crAPP that gives you the codes for shops toilets around the city, if you're ever stuck.

That sounds good , I must take a look

Kittykat67

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Im so surprised this hasn't happened already. The centre is perfectly poised to be a counterbalance to BTs at the other end of Grafton Street, accommodating good quality restaurants, cafés and boutiques, etc.

As things stand, the Centre is dingy and dilapidated. It looks like an oversized conservatory from the 1980s. It nerds a complete overhaul, and to be opened up to the park in front of it and views of the city. It could be a gold mine for its owners, whom I don't imagine are making a great deal of money from some dubious art exhibitions, key cutting, a Flying Tiger, "Wrestlemania", and several pretty grim cafés.

Apparently Jones Lang and Lasalle are the owners of the Centre, and they're not short of cash.

It definitely needs updating

JupiterKid

markpb wrote: »

I read somewhere else that the problem with SSG is that the units are quite small, even if they combine several units. The companies showing interest in moving into Ireland (and who could pay the most rent) have no interest in small units.

Yes, this is true. The SSG Centre opened back in October 1988 - over 30 years ago - and is now very dated and tired. Many of the units are too small for modern retailers and there was always a long-standing problem of the upper floors having very little footfall and thus little rental income for the owners.

It will require a complete modernisation and partial rebuild. There may be legal issues holding up redevelopment plans.

Age does not necessarily mean obsolescence. The Powerscourt Townhouse Centre opened in 1981 - the same year the Ilac opened - and is still a great upper end retail space. It was way ahead of its time and has aged very well.

Muahahaha

Whenever they do renovate SSG SC I wonder where that huge clock might end up. If they're not using it we could put it in the Liffey for Time in the Slime part II

Ush1

As long as Asha stays open I don't mind, was in there recently and the nostalgia that hit me was mental.

Slipknot t-shirts and hash leaf lighters to beat the band back in the day!

Thelonious Monk

I'm in there nearly every day. Apart from Boots and Dunnes none of the other shops do too well from what I can see. I like it though, I have memories of being there as a kid just after it opened.
There's some really odd businesses in there. Like who goes to that café on the 3rd floor? Who thought it was a good idea to open that? Bizarre.

Corruptedmorals

It definitely needs a huge overhaul but I hope they can keep or incorporate the glass! It's so unique as a view looking down. The art gallery and a few of the shops are a great asset compared to how same-y other shopping centres are but unfortunately there are so many dead units in it which are as mentioned far too small to be useful in attracting tenants. They need to change the layout completely. The clothes shops are grim.

The cafe on the top floor, used to go the odd time when I worked in SSG and it used to get the tourists a little bit but it's definitely very quiet. And so isolated from the food court and the ground floor cafe.