Should more young be encouraged to do trades instead of going to college?

14dMoney

Fundamentally I think that Ireland's "no child left behind" ideology is damaging. We have this sycophantic obsession that college is the most important thing anyone will ever do, and as a result we measure university success rates by how many people pass, as opposed to the quality of the education received.

I think you should be encouraged to start more threads.

McDermotX

Del

Balanadan

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you should be encouraged to start more threads.

Top, top posting from 14d in fairness.

riffmongous

More trades will only result in more fat people, due to the unhealthy eating and drinking habits that come with the working conditions

padd b1975

riffmongous wrote: »

More trades will only result in more fat people, due to the unhealthy eating and drinking habits that come with the working conditions

Yeah, sure all those IT graduates are an example to us all with their healthy living and immaculate personal hygiene.

Woke Hogan

The department of education should take over training for the trades rather than rely on tradesmen.

I'm speaking generally here but tradesmen in Ireland are notoriously workshy and profane and apprenticeships promote a culture of bullying with their "striped paint" nonsense.

I would much rather send one of my kids to a technical or vocational school like they have in Germany to learn a trade rather then send them to spend four years running to the shop to buy fags for some electrician or learning how to cover up that they spent the previous night on the beer.

Grolschevik

Reply to thread title: yes.

Reply to OP content: bollocks.

ChikiChiki

riffmongous wrote: »

More trades will only result in more fat people, due to the unhealthy eating and drinking habits that come with the working conditions

One of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read on boards. Are you implying that people who do trades are less capable of looking after their health and and wellbeing.

The office environment is as unhealthy as it gets imo.

branie2

I went to college, and I did well

riffmongous

ChikiChiki wrote: »

One of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read on boards. Are you implying that people who do trades are less capable of looking after their health and and wellbeing.

The office environment is as unhealthy as it gets imo.

Yes indeed. I also think it's immoral to encourage people to do trades, knowing it will make they will eat more fast food making them fat. In addition their parents should face abuse charges for letting them do one.They should also be taxed more because of it,and forced to book two seats on airplanes

EmmetSpiceland

If most of the kids wasting their time with Arts “degrees” decided to take up a trade the country would be in much better shape and those kids would be much more successful in their lives.

Lux23

Yes, and there should be way more types of apprenticeships. I went to college, but I would have been much better off working four days a week and attending college one day. I am terrible with my hands, so a traditional craft trade wouldn't be for me, but all I learned about my profession was through working.

Guy:Incognito

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

If most of the kids wasting their time with Arts “degrees” decided to take up a trade the country would be in much better shape and those kids would be much more successful in their lives.

Yes, the workshy arty types are exactly the ones employers love to have on the site.

EmmetSpiceland

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yes, the workshy arty types are exactly the ones employers love to have on the site.

Your confusing “art” with the “Humanities”, G.

Badly Drunk Boy

An electrician in work said that he had to fight to become an electrician because he was fairly good academically, and his parents and teachers were all putting pressure on him to go to college. Obviously there is a college element to doing an apprenticeship do it's not as it he missed it completely.

He stuck to his guns and is still happy with his decision.

Woke Hogan wrote: »

I'm speaking generally here but tradesmen in Ireland are notoriously workshy and profane and apprenticeships promote a culture of bullying with their "striped paint" nonsense.

Striped paint is easy. It's the tartan paint that's tricky.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Most white collar 'office' type work environments seem to require a degree of some sorts these days, even if it's mickey mouse and not relatable to the area of employment.

It would be great to see a proper run system of Trade Schools developed in the country.

DEFTLEFTHAND

God be with the days when you could rise to the top of Bank of Ireland with barely a pass Leaving Cert.

mfceiling

I think some of you have a rather dated idea of what is happening on sites nowadays.
The vast majority of lads all bring lunches and with the younger lads looking after themselves more, it tends to be wraps, salads, porridge and fresh fruit that I'm seeing.
The day of 20 lads queueing for breakfast rolls is long gone...A 30 minute tea break doesn't start after you've been 25 minutes waiting in a shop!!
Also any of the apprentice electricians that have been on the past few jobs have been fairly diligent and hard working. No tea runs for these lads. They're encouraged more now to learn quickly...Easy to pay 2nd year wages to a competent lad than have to pay for another fully qualified spark.
My work is suspended ceilings and partitions and there isn't a young lad in the country doing it. Most of the workers are Eastern European with the older (me) Irish lads to do the setting out and liasing with foremen other trades.
I enjoy the work and I couldn't think of anything worse than going to the same office to sit at the same desk every day of my working life!!

somefeen

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

If most of the kids wasting their time with Arts “degrees” decided to take up a trade the country would be in much better shape and those kids would be much more successful in their lives.

I'd agree for the traditional craft trades. But there should be apprenticeships for other less cut and dry jobs that require more nebulous soft skills.
Sales should be a trade for instance, its a learn on the job type of career but the skills are less practical and more intellectual.

Edit: quoted wrong post. I'm saying the arts degree types would be useless block layers but might be great salesmen

DEFTLEFTHAND

somefeen wrote: »

I'd agree for the traditional craft trades. But there should be apprenticeships for other less cut and dry jobs that require more nebulous soft skills.
Sales should be a trade for instance, its a learn on the job type of career but the skills are less practical and more intellectual.

You can't make a Salesman. You're either born with or you're not.

Gimme A Pound

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

If most of the kids wasting their time with Arts “degrees” decided to take up a trade the country would be in much better shape and those kids would be much more successful in their lives.

Seems like you're just trying to be a wee bit provocative with that assertion at this stage E. You're smart enough to know that it depends.

Obviously an arts degree is actually necessary for some careers. Not many, but still - teaching being the main one. A degree in any discipline is necessary in numerous companies/government bodies.

And an economics and geography degree is very different to a folklore and film studies degree.

Finally, there is obviously the option to do more practical postgraduate or other studies with the arts degree.

JohnnyFlash

padd b1975 wrote: »

Yeah, sure all those IT graduates are an example to us all with their healthy living and immaculate personal hygiene.

Know the sort you are on about, Padd. I run a small business, and have this small IT firm come in and manage upgrades, mobile security, accounting software, printers etc. You’d get the odd nice lad calling in, but most of them are pure stereotypical IT dorks. Pale and sickly skin, overweight, difficulty maintaining eye contact, wheezing slightly as they breathe. It would sicken you to see one of them wombling in the door like one of the fücking goonies who discovered frozen pizza and microwaveable burgers.

I’m fairly tech savvy for a lad of my vintage, so I’m in the process of moving everything to the cloud.

somefeen

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

You can't make a Salesman. You're either born with or you're not.

People say that but there's tons of people who started off being useless at it and get good through practice.
Great book on the subject is "The introverts edge"
I did it for a while, I was crap at the start but got better at it.

beejee

A very, very small amount of degree programmes have actual value.

AlphabetCards

mfceiling wrote: »

I think some of you have a rather dated idea of what is happening on sites nowadays.
The vast majority of lads all bring lunches and with the younger lads looking after themselves more, it tends to be wraps, salads, porridge and fresh fruit that I'm seeing.
The day of 20 lads queueing for breakfast rolls is long gone...A 30 minute tea break doesn't start after you've been 25 minutes waiting in a shop!!
Also any of the apprentice electricians that have been on the past few jobs have been fairly diligent and hard working. No tea runs for these lads. They're encouraged more now to learn quickly...Easy to pay 2nd year wages to a competent lad than have to pay for another fully qualified spark.
My work is suspended ceilings and partitions and there isn't a young lad in the country doing it. Most of the workers are Eastern European with the older (me) Irish lads to do the setting out and liasing with foremen other trades.
I enjoy the work and I couldn't think of anything worse than going to the same office to sit at the same desk every day of my working life!!

I've wondered for years where your username came from!

riffmongous

padd b1975 wrote: »

Yeah, sure all those IT graduates are an example to us all with their healthy living and immaculate personal hygiene.

Whoosh!

_blaaz

Theres a weird snobery around doing trades in this country aswell though....any amount of people in country would rather their kids sit on dole than do trades

Mr. teddywinkles

mfceiling wrote: »

I think some of you have a rather dated idea of what is happening on sites nowadays.
The vast majority of lads all bring lunches and with the younger lads looking after themselves more, it tends to be wraps, salads, porridge and fresh fruit that I'm seeing.
The day of 20 lads queueing for breakfast rolls is long gone...A 30 minute tea break doesn't start after you've been 25 minutes waiting in a shop!!
Also any of the apprentice electricians that have been on the past few jobs have been fairly diligent and hard working. No tea runs for these lads. They're encouraged more now to learn quickly...Easy to pay 2nd year wages to a competent lad than have to pay for another fully qualified spark.
My work is suspended ceilings and partitions and there isn't a young lad in the country doing it. Most of the workers are Eastern European with the older (me) Irish lads to do the setting out and liasing with foremen other trades.
I enjoy the work and I couldn't think of anything worse than going to the same office to sit at the same desk every day of my working life!!

And sitting at a desk all day would never make ya fat. Burning carbs to beat the band.

Lackadaisical

There'd be a point if there was also somewhere to employ all of those trades. The trades in Germany couple with a huge range of SMEs in technical areas that are financed and managed in a way the Anglosphere doesn't tend to do. We tend to be hugely focused on speculative models of raising finance.

It's a chicken and egg situation. You'd need to create the environment for trades to be worthwhile career paths. We don't have a big industrial heritage.

EmmetSpiceland

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Seems like you're just trying to be a wee bit provocative with that assertion at this stage E. You're smart enough to know that it depends.

Obviously an arts degree is actually necessary for some careers. Not many, but still - teaching being the main one. A degree in any discipline is necessary in numerous companies/government bodies.

And an economics and geography degree is very different to a folklore and film studies degree.

Finally, there is obviously the option to do more practical postgraduate or other studies with the arts degree.

Apologies if I keep “banging the drum” on the issue but it’s a real “bug bear” of mine. I’ve seen so many lads who went into Arts because they were expected to go to college for something.

Then they emerge three or four years later with a degree that can get them into teaching or an entry level job in some “financial” institution or insurance company. These guys would have been much better off getting a job straight out of school or taking up a trade.

_blaaz wrote: »

Theres a weird snobery around doing trades in this country aswell though....any amount of people in country would rather their kids sit on dole than do trades

Anyone who knew anyone working in a trade during the 90s would be a fool to look down on them.

_blaaz

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Clueless is term I'd use. Rather sit on dole due to hard work involved more like. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

I say this much....i was working late one evening finishing a job and was finishing up around 11ish


The neighbour (whos son is a very very minor drug dealer aswell as dole) said to my folks....id never let kid of mine do a trade,sure your never finished working,look at blaaz there working until 11pm.last night


But like i save up all my nixer money and use it to pay for travelling/holidays at end of year

Online dating is a minefiels altogether if ya have a trade,amount of wans who wouldnt consider someone who never been to college is suprisingly high (each to their own like,everyone has their preferences,just highlights the bizzare view having a trade is held in here)

yeah i dont think everyone has to go to college if it's not for them

Silentcorner

Judging by the standard of solicitor, journalist, accountants I'd say a lot more would benefit from on the job training straight out of school as opposed to a 4/5 year stint in a university.

Way too much education snobbery in this country if you ask me.

LirW

somefeen wrote: »

People say that but there's tons of people who started off being useless at it and get good through practice.
Great book on the subject is "The introverts edge"
I did it for a while, I was crap at the start but got better at it.

This, just started a salesjob and it's fun and even if you are naturally gifted with what it takes you have loads to learn because you can unconsciously mess it up.
We have a few psychology students in it and they do quite well.

Mr. teddywinkles

_blaaz wrote: »

I say this much....i was working late one evening finishing a job and was finishing up around 11ish


The neighbour (whos son is a very very minor drug dealer aswell as dole) said to my folks....id never let kid of mine do a trade,sure your never finished working,look at blaaz there working until 11pm.last night


But like i save up all my nixer money and use it to pay for travelling/holidays at end of year

Online dating is a minefiels altogether if ya have a trade,amount of wans who wouldnt consider someone who never been to college is suprisingly high (each to their own like,everyone has their preferences,just highlights the bizzare view having a trade is held in here)

That's because to even do clerical work ya have to go to college these days.

Mr. teddywinkles

Silentcorner wrote: »

Judging by the standard of solicitor, journalist, accountants I'd say a lot more would benefit from on the job training straight out of school as opposed to a 4/5 year stint in a university.

Way too much education snobbery in this country if you ask me.

I'd say most of them don't give an actually ****e bout what they do just status. Never could understand how people pick a career for life without no experience or background in it from beginning.

Church on Tuesday

It all depends on what you want to do really.

Not everyone is handy with hands on trades type work and a DIY nut.

Some are then more academically able than others, it's horses for courses really.

eurokev

I don't think people appreciate how much money a good tradesman can make without working too hard.
There is plenty of electricians making as much as doctors and not working particularly hard

GooglePlus

All my mates coming out the end of trade apprenticeships are all making more money than most of my friends who went to college.

More at risk of the boom/bust scenario perhaps but when the work is flowing the money rolls in for them.

corner of hells

Woke Hogan wrote: »

The department of education should take over training for the trades rather than rely on tradesmen.

I'm speaking generally here but tradesmen in Ireland are notoriously workshy and profane and apprenticeships promote a culture of bullying with their "striped paint" nonsense.

I would much rather send one of my kids to a technical or vocational school like they have in Germany to learn a trade rather then send them to spend four years running to the shop to buy fags for some electrician or learning how to cover up that they spent the previous night on the beer.

Damn right.
The amount of houses that burned down around me from electrical fires , gas explosions , ceilings falling down and so on this year is incredible.

Gimme A Pound

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Apologies if I keep “banging the drum” on the issue but it’s a real “bug bear” of mine. I’ve seen so many lads who went into Arts because they were expected to go to college for something.

Then they emerge three or four years later with a degree that can get them into teaching or an entry level job in some “financial” institution or insurance company. These guys would have been much better off getting a job straight out of school or taking up a trade.

Aye, but companies like that do expect a degree, plus people want to experience college life while they're young. Don't get me wrong - it's beyond me why someone would bother with a folklore and classics degree unless they want to work in academia, and I do understand the reservations about doing a degree in any auld thing just to have a degree. But at the same time, it is a basic expectation now from employers. I do think, yeah, go for the professional or scientific courses or the trade first and foremost, but if you're someone who's just not wired for any of the above, an arts degree - in the most practical subjects there are - is good to have, since it's expected. And can be supplemented by a more practical postgrad or certificate or diploma.

It's the masters in arts that I find pointless though. An English degree is enough - no need for an M.A. in English (unless you want to work in academia).

Bobblehats

Trade Ya! That’ll lure em .. come on brainstorm guys

ToddyDoody

There's no reason why someone can't have an M.A. in english litt. and do plumbing to pay the bills.

LirW

I was thinking about this in the car earlier.
I think an issue is that there aren't many options between being unskilled, go into trades or go to college. There aren't any alternative routes that cater to the different types of learners out there.
I think we all know people that are intelligent and capable but perform pretty badly in the academic setting.

Many courses have little to no practical experience. While I appreciate a degree can get you into a better firm, there is a lot of money pumped in 3rd level and people still need long training, even though on paper they are very educated in the field. I am sceptical this is the best way to go.

Someone mentioned the technical schools in Germany. I finished my education in one and honestly it is a pretty decent system especially for fields that have a high demand for skilled staff.
So you stay in school until you're 19 and do your leaving cert. But it's not only a leaving cert but you also get a Level 6 qualification in the field you were trained in over the last 5 years.
Young people get to work on projects, the curriculum is very hands on and close to the working reality of the job. I admit, it is quite tough going but many of my peers went on to work on their field because the companies know about the reputation of the schools and their students.
For example: a couple of lads I know finished with 19/20 as engineers and went straight into entry level positions. Since many of them didn't have commitments they volunteer for jobs that involve travelling and they quite literally get to travel the world. It's hard work because weeks are long, hours are long but the pay is insane. Some do it for a few years and then buy homes. Some never come back, a good friend now lives in a decent part of Michigan and works for GM and owns his home with his girlfriend in his late 20s. He never did 3rd level.
Another one currently travels to sites in Asia and the states and moves permanently to the states soon because the money is good.
Another guy is all over Europe as a film set lighting tech.
Others decide to go to college and do something entirely different. Some are academic and decide they want to study further in their field.

While it is tougher as a teenager and quite demanding, this path produces very capable staff and people that don't do too well in classrooms are smashing it with their practical experience.