Is a REx my best/only option?

Soarer

Afternoon all.

I've managed to talk my way into a new position in work where there'll be a lot more driving, ~10k per year. Mileage will be paid slightly higher but along the lines of the civil service rates, with low/medium/high rates being based on <1200cc/ 1201-1499cc/>1500cc. Tax is paid on the difference between the CS rate and the company rate.

I want to stay in the world of EV, and really don't want to go back to a diesel.

There will be good bit of "ArseholeOfNowhere" driving, so I don't want to be depending on the public charging network.

I've thought about a 330e, which would cover my commute to the office everyday, but not much else. Would be a nice comfortable car for the longer drives.
A colleague has an Ioniq PHEV, and he reckons he's getting 50kms on battery alone. That'd be nearly double the electric range of the 330e, and would be comfy enough for the long trips too.
A 60ah REx should have around 100kms of range on battery alone, and the REx would idle away while making up the shortfall. Wouldn't be a comfortable as the other two though, and I'd probably have to have the back seats down for equipment for site. Plus I'd have to get over my distain for the doors!

So what say ye?

KCross

How far away is this arseholeOfNowhere? Max distance? Would it be daily or weekly that you would be visiting this arsehole(s)?

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

How far away is this arseholeOfNowhere? Max distance? Would it be daily or weekly that you would be visiting this arsehole(s)?

Could be literally anywhere in the country, depending on the project at the time.
Might be 20kms from the office, or a farm up in Connemara.

KCross

You’ve test driven the i3 so you know it’s ups and downs. Putting down the seats for equipment sounds like that would get old quickly and might not be compatible with using the car for school runs, training etc on the same day you’re doing a job run?

Only you can tell if the i3 will work for you or not. If it does, it’s probably the best option.

If it doesn’t suit and the requirement is to stay EV but away from public infrastructure you have no choice but the other PHEVs.... Niro, look at Optima too, Ioniq, Outlander might be a good option, 330e(too short EV range though)

Have you a budget in mind?

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

You’ve test driven the i3 so you know it’s ups and downs. Putting down the seats for equipment sounds like that would get old quickly and might not be compatible with using the car for school runs, training etc on the same day you’re doing a job run?

Only you can tell if the i3 will work for you or not. If it does, it’s probably the best option.

If it doesn’t suit and the requirement is to stay EV but away from public infrastructure you have no choice but the other PHEVs.... Niro, look at Optima too, Ioniq, Outlander might be a good option, 330e(too short EV range though)

Have you a budget in mind?

Cheers KCross.

Equipment and kids will never be in the car at the same time, so that won’t be an issue. I’m not even sure if I’ll have to put down the seats (can’t remember the size of the boot and unsure about equipment size!).

As for budget, I’d hope to spend around €15k tops.

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

As for budget, I’d hope to spend around €15k tops.

Can you even get an i3 for that these days? 6 months ago some went for not much more than GBP10k but the UK market has gone mental with strong negative depreciation on most EVs

Cheapest i3 on Auto Trader is a GBP14k REx and you will have to pay a bit of VRT on that. Cheapest 330e is same. Kia Optima PHEV is more. I guess for your budget you would be looking at an older Outlander or an Ampera as the only plug ins with a decent range on electric

Alkers

How many seats do you need? Will you be staying overnight in these places or are they all day trips?

krissovo

Call me ignorant and without knowing your travel and car policy but why not buy the car you want and work around the capabilities of that car? If you need to head off into the deep dark east of the country rent a car and claim on expenses or pocket the allowance if its beneficial to pay for a rental. Single Day or two day rentals are relatively cheap for a midsize in Ireland as long as you are near an outlet. Become a preferred customer and you do not even need to wait at one of the counters, just walk up to your car and head off.

Soarer

unkel wrote: »

Can you even get an i3 for that these days? 6 months ago some went for not much more than GBP10k but the UK market has gone mental with strong negative depreciation on most EVs

Cheapest i3 on Auto Trader is a GBP14k REx and you will have to pay a bit of VRT on that. Cheapest 330e is same. Kia Optima PHEV is more. I guess for your budget you would be looking at an older Outlander or an Ampera as the only plug ins with a decent range on electric

I'd be hoping to only spend €15k. I know it'll be tight, and could probably find an extra fiver somewhere if stuck!

Alkers wrote: »

How many seats do you need? Will you be staying overnight in these places or are they all day trips?

Only need 4 seats (2+2).
Sometimes there'll be overnights, sometimes day trips.

krissovo wrote: »

Call me ignorant and without knowing your travel and car policy but why not buy the car you want and work around the capabilities of that car? If you need to head off into the deep dark east of the country rent a car and claim on expenses or pocket the allowance if its beneficial to pay for a rental. Single Day or two day rentals are relatively cheap for a midsize in Ireland as long as you are near an outlet. Become a preferred customer and you do not even need to wait at one of the counters, just walk up to your car and head off.

Cheers for the suggestion.

I'm kinda looking to change the car anyway. My current Leaf has a range of about 60-65kms (~67% SOH on LeafSpy) which suits me for most of my day-to-day stuff. But it's getting to the stage where I can't get to the beach and back at the weekends without needing to charge.
If I didn't get this new position, I'd go for a newer L24 or stretch to an L30 and they'd suit me fine and dandyo.
But with the uncertainty of my mileage/destinations, I feel I need the backup of the engine so I'm not caught out.

Don't get me wrong either. I've always liked the i3, and have constantly thought about buying one since my test drive last year.

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

Don't get me wrong either. I've always liked the i3, and have constantly thought about buying one since my test drive last year.

We know

I guess keep an eye out on used i3 REx from the various sites. And save up a little bit more. Would you consider bringing one in from the UK yourself?

Even though their prices have shot up, now is not the worst to buy an i3. You get to sell your Leaf for a lot more money than you paid for it too even though the range is now even worse than when you got it

Mickeroo

I wouldn't buy an EV for that use case unless I could afford one of the 64kwh cars tbh.

unkel

He's not buying an EV

The i3 is the PHEV with the longest range of them all. He loves it and it is more or less within budget. It suits fine.

Alkers

Soarer wrote: »

Only need 4 seats (2+2).
Sometimes there'll be overnights, sometimes day trips

Seriously look at the Ampera in that case, you'll get 60km range in the warmer weather. No fast charging so you'll only be charging from home or anywhere with an outdoor socket

Soarer

Alkers wrote: »

Seriously look at the Ampera in that case, you'll get 60km range in the warmer weather. No fast charging so you'll only be charging from home or anywhere with an outdoor socket

Tis the lack of local servicing is turning me off the Ampera.

Alkers

Soarer wrote: »

Tis the lack of local servicing is turning me off the Ampera.

Where are you based? You can get them serviced in a good few places, just that they won't satisfy the warranty conditions. If your out of warranty for mileage or older than 8 years there's no issue.

slave1

As an FYI Revenue are looking at new rates to capture EVs, so I've been told by an accountant friend in Revenue audit

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

As an FYI Revenue are looking at new rates to capture EVs, so I've been told by an accountant friend in Revenue audit

What do you mean by “new rates”?
Are you referring to civil service mileage rates?

Soarer

The more I learn, the less I know!

Started a thread over on SpeakEV about what to look out for on early 60ah REx, and the general consensus is to run a mile!
Now I know the internet is usually full of people with problems, and they’re usually the minority, but I don’t think I can take the risk. But things (fairly regularly) go wrong, and are expensive to fix. Suggestions are to increase budget and get the 94ah REx, which seems to have most of the early foibles ironed out.
Cheap 94ah REx are around the £20k Sterling, which is a lot more than I was budgeting on. But at least the car will be earning its keep, so that softens the blow.
The biggest problem I have with that money for the i3 is that, for me, the car is too compromised to pay that sort of money for.
So if my new budget is somewhere between €20k-€25k, I’m probably looking at a more “normal” PHEV.
Golf GTE
Passat GTE
330e
Prius PHEV
Ioniq PHEV
Probably a few I’ve forgotten too!

Chargepoint in work.
Normal day is probably 20kms a day, save for a couple of times a week where I do ~40kms visiting parents. Probably only the Prius and Ioniq will do that on electric?

Of the above, I probably trust the Prius the most. We’ve had a couple, and the in-laws have a Yaris hybrid, and we’ve never had an ounce of trouble.
The 330e is the posh choice, but the electric range isn’t great, and I’d imagine things are pricey if they go wrong.

So again, what say ye?

KCross

Don’t forget the Niro and Optima PHEV, which will cover your 40km.

Some of the others won’t.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Don’t forget the Niro and Optima PHEV, which will cover your 40km.

Some of the others won’t.

Whats the battery warranty on the Ampera?

Easily get 4-5 year old ones for less than €14,000

They do like 80km on electric

If someone is willing to spend €25,000 has to full EV with 50kWh yokes like Peugeot 208e coming soon

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201906239309947?advertising-location=at_cars&amp;postcode=m52ty&amp;model=AMPERA&amp;page=1&amp;make=VAUXHALL&amp;fuel-type=Hybrid – Petrol/Electric Plug-in&amp;onesearchad=New&amp;onesearchad=Nearly New&amp;onesearchad=Used

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Don’t forget the Niro and Optima PHEV, which will cover your 40km.

Some of the others won’t.

Cheers KCross.

Don’t like the Niro.
Always liked the look of the Optima. Don’t know about the interior. Only Kia I’ve ever sat in is the Soul, and it seems fairly plasticky. Don’t know if the Optima would be the same.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Whats the battery warranty on the Ampera?

Easily get 4-5 year old ones for less than €14,000

They do like 80km on electric

If someone is willing to spend €25,000 has to full EV with 50kWh yokes like Peugeot 208e coming soon

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201906239309947?advertising-location=at_cars&postcode=m52ty&model=AMPERA&page=1&make=VAUXHALL&fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric%20Plug-in&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used

Cheers Mike.

Didn’t think they’d do that sort of mileage. Also, lack of servicing in the Republic is a bit of a turn off. But I suppose the electric side doesn’t need much, and it’s only a normal petrol engine after that.

slave1

KCross wrote: »

What do you mean by “new rates”?
Are you referring to civil service mileage rates?

Yes, there will be a civil service mileage rate for EVs as they are currently in the lowest category (less than 1.2) and it's coming up in Revenue Audits as a flagged item

Soarer

slave1 wrote: »

Yes, there will be a civil service mileage rate for EVs as they are currently in the lowest category (less than 1.2) and it's coming up in Revenue Audits as a flagged item

I know I’m taking my own thread off topic, but...
Are they planning on reducing the rate for EVs, or increasing it as another incentive?
I’d imagine the former.

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

Are they planning on reducing the rate for EVs, or increasing it as another incentive?
I’d imagine the former.

I recently read a newspaper article which also mentioned it is being looked into. I'd imagine the latter. It is very unfair that a €30k EV gives you a lower rate than a €30k 1.6l diesel car (as is now)

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

I know I’m taking my own thread off topic, but...
Are they planning on reducing the rate for EVs, or increasing it as another incentive?
I’d imagine the former.

unkel wrote: »

I recently read a newspaper article which also mentioned it is being looked into. I'd imagine the latter. It is very unfair that a €30k EV gives you a lower rate than a €30k 1.6l diesel car (as is now)

Its an interesting one. The purpose of mileage rates is to compensate the employee for using their own car and its meant to cover fuel and wear and tear on your car and not meant to be a way of earning money.

Clearly those expenses are less on an EV so I'd say they are more likely to reduce the rate given to EV's than increase it, but you never know.... when it comes to revenue its about collecting money, not giving it away!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

its meant to cover fuel and wear and tear on your car and not meant to be a way of earning money.

Yeah right

Nice little tax free earner all the same. I upgrade my cars in the past because of it and justified going for a V8 petrol saloon as the civil service rates covered the massive motor tax and most of my petrol on business trips

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Yeah right

Nice little tax free earner all the same. I upgrade my cars in the past because of it and justified going for a V8 petrol saloon as the civil service rates covered the massive motor tax and most of my petrol on business trips

I know, I've been there myself, it does give you money in your pocket but you also have to allow that your depreciation is going up with the increased mileage (unless its small mileage) and hence resale value goes down. So you might have money in your pocket while you have the car but will you have it when you go to sell. Its hard to quantify that. It depends on how many miles you've put up.


I could still see revenue deciding to give a reduced rate for EV's eventhough they are introducing incentives for EV's in other areas. Its impossible to tell what revenue are thinking really. It could go either way is all I'm saying.

unkel

I don't disagree. But I do expect it to be better for EVs than it is now.

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

Always liked the look of the Optima. Don’t know about the interior. Only Kia I’ve ever sat in is the Soul, and it seems fairly plasticky. Don’t know if the Optima would be the same.

You would have the following landed and registered in Ireland for ~€19500k (inc €1k VRT)
https://www.motors.co.uk/car-53989983


The Optima is not one of their entry model cars so it should have a more executive feel to it. Maybe take a wander into a Kia dealer and sit in the ICE version and then decide if its worth going to the UK for a PHEV version or not.

The i3 is still the better option if you can put up with the doors etc.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

I don't disagree. But I do expect it to be better for EVs than it is now.

i.e. you think instead of putting EV's into the <1.2L bracket they will push it into a higher bracket?

If I was a minster I'd go with that too as it is a good incentive and doesnt require any new money to be found in the budget as such and gets people to make the change.

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

You would have the following landed and registered in Ireland for ~€19500k (inc €1k VRT)
https://www.motors.co.uk/car-53989983


The Optima is not one of their entry model cars so it should have a more executive feel to it. Maybe take a wander into a Kia dealer and sit in the ICE version and then decide if its worth going to the UK for a PHEV version or not.

The i3 is still the better option if you can put up with the doors etc.

Sound.

Had actually spotted this one, if for no other reason that the kid sister is living in Edinburgh and could check it out for me beforehand.
The Optima probably have only 1/3 the EV range of the 60ah REx, and a 2ltr petrol engine that seems a bit overkill. They do look like a "proper" car though.

Also have my eye on this Ampera Electron. She looks brilliant (IMO) and the mileage is good. They have their own little idiosyncrasies though (no A2DP support!), but then which car hasn't?!

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

Sound.

Had actually spotted this one, if for no other reason that the kid sister is living in Edinburgh and could check it out for me beforehand.
The Optima probably have only 1/3 the EV range of the 60ah REx, and a 2ltr petrol engine that seems a bit overkill. They do look like a "proper" car though.

Confirm the EV range on the Optima. I havent got first hand experience/knowledge of it. I just know it has a similar size battery to the Niro and it can do 50km so I'm assuming the Optima can at least do the same.

The 2L engine is big alright but might suit for those long journeys. You will still be in all EV mode for your daily commuting and the tax is based on CO2 so that will be quite low(<50gCO2). Servicing a 2l vs a 1.6l isnt going to make any difference really.

Soarer wrote: »

Also have my eye on this Ampera Electron. She looks brilliant (IMO) and the mileage is good. They have their own little idiosyncrasies though (no A2DP support!), but then which car hasn't?!

That looks lovely in red and I like the shape of the Ampera.

Not too gone on the interior though. Looks plasticy, which is something you said you didnt like. Have you sat in one of those?

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Confirm the EV range on the Optima. I havent got first hand experience/knowledge of it. I just know it has a similar size battery to the Niro and it can do 50km so I'm assuming the Optima can at least do the same.

The 2L engine is big alright but might suit for those long journeys. You will still be in all EV mode for your daily commuting and the tax is based on CO2 so that will be quite low(<50gCO2). Servicing a 2l vs a 1.6l isnt going to make any difference really.

Plus it can actually be done locally (I assume). And will have the remainder of the 7 year warranty, which isn't to be sniffed at.

That looks lovely in red and I like the shape of the Ampera.

Not too gone on the interior though. Looks plasticy, which is something you said you didnt like. Have you sat in one of those?[/QUOTE]

Nah, never have.
the centre console is a big slab of plastic alright. The rest is more than acceptable.
The thing with the Kia interiors is that they just look like hard wearing plastic! Even the auto gearstick is like something from a 1980s Granada.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Not too gone on the interior though. Looks plasticy, which is something you said you didnt like. Have you sat in one of those?

The interior doesn't look plasticy (central console aside). The door panels and dash are textured and look high quality. However, they are hard plastic. So while it doesn't look it, it feels it.

Mike9832

Soarer wrote: »

Plus it can actually be done locally (I assume). And will have the remainder of the 7 year warranty, which isn't to be sniffed at.

If the ICE and electric bits can be serviced by a local Kia dealer and remaining warranty applies, it's a great buy for less than €20,000

Range from what I have read on speakev is about 40km real world

It runs down to 12% battery and engine kicks in

Looks quickish too compared to stuff like Niro and Ioniq hybrid, 2 litre engine alot stronger

Looked at them a good bit, but couldn't get confirmation on servicing here

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

Plus it can actually be done locally (I assume). And will have the remainder of the 7 year warranty, which isn't to be sniffed at.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Looked at them a good bit, but couldn't get confirmation on servicing here

If Kia Ireland are approved to service Niro PHEV (which they are) I cant see why they couldnt handle an Optima PHEV.

unkel

Kia Optima is a modern looking quite a big saloon, neighbour has one (diesel). Can't beat the 7 year warranty either.

Be very careful though buying a PHEV without having test driven one properly. I know several disappointed owners of PHEVs, who didn't give the car the beans during a test drive, then bought it (best of both worlds, right?) and then when they use it in real life the petrol engine kicks in all the time

Optima electric drive train has 68bhp and the car weights 1.7 tonnes (does have 186NM of torque though which is decent for launch). Go figure, that's going to be very slow just using electric to drive it.

Soarer

Quick (stupid) question.

What happens if the REx runs out of petrol? Just refill and go again?

zilog_jones

unkel wrote: »

Be very careful though buying a PHEV without having test driven one properly. I know several disappointed owners of PHEVs, who didn't give the car the beans during a test drive, then bought it (best of both worlds, right?) and then when they use it in real life the petrol engine kicks in all the time

Optima electric drive train has 68bhp and the car weights 1.7 tonnes (does have 186NM of torque though which is decent for launch). Go figure, that's going to be very slow just using electric to drive it.

I hadn't driven mine before I bought it (mainly because <5 existed in the country at the time), but had driven a non-plugin Gen 3 Prius and had done plenty of research so I knew what I was getting into. MG2 can deliver 60 kW (80 bhp), and for driving around town it's sufficient, and it can accelerate up to the EV speed limit of 85 km/h at an acceptable (but not particularly fast) rate. It's often referred to as "milk float mode" as it's not the fastest thing around, but I can still drive on the N40 Cork South Ring Road (100 km/h dual carriageway) in EV mode without being a nuisance.

Although the Optima PHEV appears to have an EV speed limit of 120 km/h, considering the other stats (more weight and less power than mine) I'd say it would be difficult to get anywhere on a dual carriageway or motorway with no ICE.

The Gen 2 Prius PHV has got a bit more EV power (91 bhp) and a speed limit of 135 km/h, and is lighter than the Optima.

KCross

Ultimately a PHEV is a hybrid. You buy it because you EXPECT to use petrol.... just alot less of it.

Dont expect to put it in EV mode and never use petrol particularly if you have a heavy right foot.

So, I agree with unkel... go drive one first but they are not slow. After all the Optima has a 2L engine in it, you just have to get used to how it drives and switches between the modes and how far you can push it before the engine kicks in. If you want the power, use it. It will only be short bursts to get to the speed you need and then it shuts off again once you get to your cruising speed.

Soarer.... iirc, 0-60 times are not really your thing and you mainly drive on L and N roads day to day anyway so I dont really think the power side of things is going to matter that much to you.... but do go drive it first..... even drive the Niro PHEV to get a feel for that.. the Optima should be better than the Niro since the Niro only has a 1.6L engine.

A BEV is much nicer to drive than a PHEV but if a PHEV is what you want/need you just have to make do.

DrPhilG

Soarer wrote: »

Quick (stupid) question.

What happens if the REx runs out of petrol? Just refill and go again?

Correct.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Ultimately a PHEV is a hybrid. You buy it because you EXPECT to use petrol.... just alot less of it.

Dont expect to put it in EV mode and never use petrol particularly if you have a heavy right foot.

So, I agree with unkel... go drive one first but they are not slow. After all the Optima has a 2L engine in it, you just have to get used to how it drives and switches between the modes and how far you can push it before the engine kicks in. If you want the power, use it. It will only be short bursts to get to the speed you need and then it shuts off again once you get to your cruising speed.

Soarer.... iirc, 0-60 times are not really your thing and you mainly drive on L and N roads day to day anyway so I dont really think the power side of things is going to matter that much to you.... but do go drive it first..... even drive the Niro PHEV to get a feel for that.. the Optima should be better than the Niro since the Niro only has a 1.6L engine.

A BEV is much nicer to drive than a PHEV but if a PHEV is what you want/need you just have to make do.

Very true

If he drives an i3 rex, he will forget what it looks like very quickly

Of all the EV's I have test driven, it's by the far the best to drive ( they wouldn't let me take out a Tesla )

2 year old's can be got in UK for €20,000

If you could get an extended BMW warranty that would be the car to get

EV performace and petrol as backup

Drove a 330e in EV mode and it's dog slow compared to an i3

Soarer

Mike9832 wrote: »

Very true

If he drives an i3 rex, he will forget what it looks like very quickly

Of all the EV's I have test driven, it's by the far the best to drive ( they wouldn't let me take out a Tesla )

2 year old's can be got in UK for €20,000

If you could get an extended BMW warranty that would be the car to get

EV performace and petrol as backup

Drove a 330e in EV mode and it's dog slow compared to an i3

I’ve driven an i3 REx, and even though the doors annoy the trifle out of me, it’s still something I really want.
And I actually like the looks. It’s the physical size that’s marginally off putting. Especially when there’s “normal sized” family PHEVs available for similar money.

You might show me where I can get a 2 year old REx for €20k like a good man.

Mike9832

Soarer wrote: »

I’ve driven an i3 REx, and even though the doors annoy the trifle out of me, it’s still something I really want.
And I actually like the looks. It’s the physical size that’s marginally off putting. Especially when there’s “normal sized” family PHEVs available for similar money.

You might show me where I can get a 2 year old REx for €20k like a good man.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201904026534039?advertising-location=at_cars&year-from=2017&postcode=m52ty&model=I3&sort=price-asc&page=1&make=BMW&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used

Gone up a bit since I last checked

About €22,500 - €23,000 Inc VRT

Still great value imo

unkel

GBP10k REx, private sale. Some minor issues, but at the moment this is a bargain.

Linky

Soarer

And apparently in Crumlin.

unkel

Not our Crumlin though

baldshin

Definitely been asked before, but how is VRT calculated on Rex models?

zilog_jones

Same as any other car - on CO2 emissions and market value

Soarer

It’s 14% of the OMSP, but you don’t get the full €5000 pure EV grant. You get the hybrid one, which is a yearly reducing amount.

Soarer

Mike9832 wrote: »

Looked at them a good bit, but couldn't get confirmation on servicing here

KCross wrote: »

If Kia Ireland are approved to service Niro PHEV (which they are) I cant see why they couldnt handle an Optima PHEV.

Looked into this a bit more (local Kia servicing the Optima PHEV), and received the following from Kia Ireland.

Dear Mr Soarer,

Thank you for contacting Kia Motors Ireland. The Optima PHEV can be serviced at any Kia dealership in Ireland, just book any work in advance and mention that it’s a plug-in hybrid beforehand; they can source parts for any Kia sold in Europe.

In terms of the warranty, that’s worldwide so once you have a written full service history with the car, there’ll be no problems in claiming on the warranty.


So that's excellent to know.