Electric Showers

smurfette2212

Hello,

There are two older threads on this, but from a few years ago, and are a little more technical than I need.

We have bought a new build and are in the process of looking at showers. The builder advised which types (Triton T90 and Mira Elite, as examples). I was chatting to my Dad about this and he immediately said that we couldn't use two electric showers, as it is a safety concern.

I did some Googling, and it seems there is a way around this, but rather than go to additional expense, can someone just confirm if (in general) two electric showers should be avoided. If so, what is the alternative?

I'm sorry that these are such utterly basic questions, but a) I have a terrible fear of electricity, so want to make sure we are doing everything correctly, and b) the builder didn't mention it, so I don't want to go back him without being sure.

Thanks!

The_Honeybadger

Just as a matter of interest why are you considering two electric showers? We have a pump shower in the en-suite run mainly off the solar panels, the electric hardly gets used. Are you getting solar panels? If so it’s a no brainer to put in a power shower, the pressure is just so much better in them.

On your original question I know there is a kit to make it safe to use two showers simultaneously but no idea on cost or anything.

slave1

You need a priority switch installed which will ensure only one electric shower will operate and any moment in time thus ensuring you don't blow your consumer unit. It's around a foot by 10inchs wide and will be fitted next to your consumer unit (fuse box).
Cost around €180 from memory.

Sleeper12

You can have as many electric showers in the house as you like
However you can only run one at a time. You can install a priority switch and this only allows one at a time.

Personally I'd install one electric shower and one power shower. Use the power shower when you have a tank of hot water and the electric shower when you have no hot water. You can run an electric shower & a power shower at the same time

smurfette2212

Thanks so much for the replies!

To be totally truthful, I don’t have an answer as to why we were considering two - I think it was that because the ones he recommended were electric. I didn’t really consider other options.

Yes to solar panels, so that sounds like it makes a lot of sense - I’ll go back and ask him about that.

Thanks everyone!

Sleeper12

If you get a pumped electric shower, stay away from the Mira Elite QT. It's a lemon

The_Honeybadger

smurfette2212 wrote: »

Thanks so much for the replies!

To be totally truthful, I don’t have an answer as to why we were considering two - I think it was that because the ones he recommended were electric. I didn’t really consider other options.

Yes to solar panels, so that sounds like it makes a lot of sense - I’ll go back and ask him about that.

Thanks everyone!

If you are getting solar panels it would be madness to put in two electric showers as you won’t get to use the hot water.

We have a triton 2000xt pump shower for many years and it still works like new if you are looking for reliable recommendations. Presumably there are newer and better models now.

hufpc8w3adnk65

One electric and one off the solar panels is the way I’d recommend also. Talk to your plumber as if you don’t have a pump seperate to the shower you could install a Mira vigour (I did this and love it) which isn’t a noisy as a stand alone pump in a hot press if people are showering early morning or late nights

Stoner

Sleeper12 wrote:

If you get a pumped electric shower, stay away from the Mira Elite QT. It's a lemon

Have you a history with them? I've mine in 3 years now. Flush it every 6 months.

What are the main complaints.

I've lashed through showers, the water where I am destroys them

Sleeper12

My business is a Dublin Shower Repair company. It's all I do. 10 percent of mira elite qt showers don't work the day we install them. We have to carry spare showers knowing that some new showers won't work. Another 10 percent fail in the next 18 months. This is a 20 perc failure rate. One percent failure rate is the norm. The triton t90sr has a half percent failure rate. We've had clients going through three motors in the warranty period and being charged 200 euros for a fourth a few weeks out of warranty. The plastic is cheap and becomes brittle after a few years.

Three design flaws with the mira elite qt are the pump, cheap plastic & a rubber elbow below the pump leaks.

Worst electric shower ever to hit the market in our experience. The older mira elite 2 & st were far better quality

Edit: even though they say their clear scale technology (or whatever its called) is ideal/suitable for high limescale areas, they won't cover limescale damage to elements under the warranty.

Not so suitable for limescale areas really

jonski

Sleeper12 wrote: »

My business is a Dublin Shower Repair company. It's all I do. 10 percent of mira elite qt showers don't work the day we install them. We have to carry spare showers knowing that some new showers won't work. Another 10 percent fail in the next 18 months. This is a 20 perc failure rate. One percent failure rate is the norm. The triton t90sr has a half percent failure rate. We've had clients going through three motors in the warranty period and being charged 200 euros for a fourth a few weeks out of warranty. The plastic is cheap and becomes brittle after a few years.

Three design flaws with the mira elite qt are the pump, cheap plastic & a rubber elbow below the pump leaks.

Worst electric shower ever to hit the market in our experience. The older mira elite 2 & st were far better quality

Edit: even though they say their clear scale technology (or whatever its called) is ideal/suitable for high limescale areas, they won't cover limescale damage to elements under the warranty.

Not so suitable for limescale areas really

And while we have you here , your thoughts on the T90SR ? Does the Silent running make it any less powerful ? Other than that I have no qualms with buying one I'm just worried ....typical Tim The Toolman ....more noise equals more power attitude .

Sleeper12

jonski wrote: »

And while we have you here , your thoughts on the T90SR ? Does the Silent running make it any less powerful ? Other than that I have no qualms with buying one I'm just worried ....typical Tim The Toolman ....more noise equals more power attitude .

The silent running is because of a brushless motor. It's 9kw & has the same power as any 9KW shower. 3 to 5 litres per minute. it can pump out 10 litres of cold water so you know that the pump is powerfull

jonski

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The silent running is because of a brushless motor. It's 9kw & has the same power as any 9KW shower. 3 to 5 litres per minute. it can pump out 10 litres of cold water so you know that the pump is powerfull

Thanks , I'll pick one up tomorrow .

corks finest

Sleeper12 wrote: »

My business is a Dublin Shower Repair company. It's all I do. 10 percent of mira elite qt showers don't work the day we install them. We have to carry spare showers knowing that some new showers won't work. Another 10 percent fail in the next 18 months. This is a 20 perc failure rate. One percent failure rate is the norm. The triton t90sr has a half percent failure rate. We've had clients going through three motors in the warranty period and being charged 200 euros for a fourth a few weeks out of warranty. The plastic is cheap and becomes brittle after a few years.

Three design flaws with the mira elite qt are the pump, cheap plastic & a rubber elbow below the pump leaks.

Worst electric shower ever to hit the market in our experience. The older mira elite 2 & st were far better quality

Edit: even though they say their clear scale technology (or whatever its called) is ideal/suitable for high limescale areas, they won't cover limescale damage to elements under the warranty.

Not so suitable for limescale areas really

Can u advise on a decent pump shower that's not going to break the bank and will last a few years pls

hufpc8w3adnk65

corks finest wrote: »

Can u advise on a decent pump shower that's not going to break the bank and will last a few years pls

Triton T90sr

John.G

Stoner wrote: »

Have you a history with them? I've mine in 3 years now. Flush it every 6 months.

What are the main complaints.

I've lashed through showers, the water where I am destroys them

I assume limescale was destroying your other ones, the only advantage maybe is that I think the Mira has a phased shutdown to run cold water through the elements after shutdown whereas the Triton doesn't??.
I wonder would the Triton elements last for 3 years?

Sleeper12 posted here last year re this advantage/disadvantage but still reckoned the Triton was still (by far?) the one to go for.

Found it, I think...https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=107352168

Sleeper12

corks finest wrote:

Can u advise on a decent pump shower that's not going to break the bank and will last a few years pls

Triton as2000xt for reasonable price power shower. Mira have the mira vigour thermostatic for around the same price but it's the only shower that only comes with a 12 months old. All others come with a 2 or 3 years warranty

Triton t90sr for the best pumped electric silent shower on the market.

The_Honeybadger

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Triton as2000xt for reasonable price power shower. Mira have the mira vigour thermostatic for around the same price but it's the only shower that only comes with a 12 months old. All others come with a 2 or 3 years warranty

Triton t90sr for the best pumped electric silent shower on the market.

@corks finest One thing with that 2000xt is that it’s quite noisy, just be advised if somebody is using it very early morning it’ll wake the person in the adjoining room my daughter is always complaining about it.

naughtysmurf

One of our showers is the Triton SR, it's very good, have always had Tritons, usually get a decent length of time out of them, +10 years, once installed & commissioned properly, we also have a priority switch OP, setup works fine,

Stoner

I've installed lots of showers over the years, but nothing like your experience Sleeper.

I always bought Triton, lashed them into bedsits all over the north circular road.

The 3 in the barber shop I go to are in for 10 years without an issue.

I've had mira and Triton in my current house, limescale has gotten to them however I'm getting a lot longer from them now as I flush them regularly.

You would be amazed at what washes out from one after 24 hours full of limescale remover.

I'll watch that next time around. I was going to pop in a Triton but a plumber swore by the mira, obviously he was basing it on past models and talking out of his backside.

Sleeper12

A water softening system is around 800 euros supplied & fitted (I think). If you are in a high limescale area its money well spent. You'll save the outlay after a few years with longer lifespan of the electric shower, immersion, dishwasher, washing machine and kettle. Something to think about for the future maybe

Stoner

Sleeper12 wrote:

A water softening system is around 800 euros supplied & fitted (I think). If you are in a high limescale area its money well spent. You'll save the outlay after a few years with longer lifespan of the electric shower, immersion, dishwasher, washing machine and kettle. Something to think about for the future maybe

Yeah I've looked at them.

Got a great spin from the last shower though

12 years from the washing machine and water cooler in the fridge.

There's annual fluting around with those systems too, maintenance contracts

However the Gulp one if still available has health benefits too.

The_Honeybadger

Stoner wrote: »

I've installed lots of showers over the years, but nothing like your experience Sleeper.

I always bought Triton, lashed them into bedsits all over the north circular road.

The 3 in the barber shop I go to are in for 10 years without an issue.

I've had mira and Triton in my current house, limescale has gotten to them however I'm getting a lot longer from them now as I flush them regularly.

You would be amazed at what washes out from one after 24 hours full of limescale remover.

I'll watch that next time around. I was going to pop in a Triton but a plumber swore by the mira, obviously he was basing it on past models and talking out of his backside.

Excuse my ignorance but how does one flush a shower for limescale buildup?

beauf

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but how does one flush a shower for limescale buildup?

I was wondering this also....

Stoner

I've a few posts on it.

Just take off the hose , run the shower use a toilet duck to push the fluid into the shower until the water turns blue, turn off and leave it

Leave it over night, run it the next day. Clean the filter.

John.G

Stoner wrote: »

I've a few posts on it.

Just take off the hose , run the shower use a toilet duck to push the fluid into the shower until the water turn blue, turn off and leave it

Leave it over night, run it the next day. Clean the filter.

That,s a novel way of doing things, I wonder has anyone made up a little rig with a circ pump and small tank to circulate hot water/chemical mix around the shower, it would probably be more effective/faster using hot water. I suppose, from a commercial point of view it may be cheaper for any customer to replace the heating can or install a water softener in the first instance.

beauf

Stoner wrote: »

I've a few posts on it.

Just take off the hose , run the shower use a toilet duck to push the fluid into the shower until the water turn blue, turn off and leave it

Leave it over night, run it the next day. Clean the filter.

How do you get it into the shower with a toliet duck?

John.G

Just put toilet duck in the search box, above.

beauf

I get nothing...?

jonski

beauf wrote: »

I get nothing...?

You'll find it here

Sleeper12

Stoner wrote:

Just take off the hose , run the shower use a toilet duck to push the fluid into the shower until the water turn blue, turn off and leave it

I tip my hat to you. I've seen this covered dozens of times by removing the heating can. This can only be done legally by a REC. Your solution keeps everyone within the law and seems to work

Stoner

Sleeper12 wrote:

I tip my hat to you. I've seen this covered dozens of times by removing the heating can. This can only be done legally by a REC. Your solution keeps everyone within the law and seems to work

Lol, I've posted on it back in the day.

Two man job.

Up into the attic

Arm arm into the tank, turn on the shower you'll feel the pipe feeding the shower as the water is being sucked into it like mad,

Squirt in the limescale remover and the person downstairs turns off the shower when they see it coming out of the shower.

All that said make sure you take off the hose before you run the shower hours later otherwise you fill it and the shower head with all the crap you flushed making another job for yourself.

Bruthal

John.G wrote: »

That,s a novel way of doing things, I wonder has anyone made up a little rig with a circ pump and small tank to circulate hot water/chemical mix around the shower, it would probably be more effective/faster using hot water. I suppose, from a commercial point of view it may be cheaper for any customer to replace the heating can or install a water softener in the first instance.

A small tank mounted at same upper height as main one and T into shower supply pipe via a 3 way valve and you could add descaler that way at intervals if water was very bad.

John.G

Bruthal wrote: »

A small tank mounted at same upper height as main one and T into shower supply pipe via a 3 way valve and you could add descaler that way at intervals if water was very bad.

Just thinking there re effects of limescale on heating elements etc, If you can maintain the normal flow rate through the shower (heating can) then does the temperature eventually rise to its normal level?, ie, my shower (13 years) reaches (and always has) its normal running temperature in 12 to 17 secs. Does the build up of limescale then increase this time span and/or does the final temperature then reach its normal level? because if it doesn't then one would think that the heating element would burn out in a fairly short time due to overheating.

Quote from somewhere or other:
"Water containing 145 ppm of calcite, flowing at 3.5 litres per minute, produces in one year 4.8 kilograms of scale at 60ºc. At 80ºC this rises dramatically to 29.9 kilograms!"

Bruthal

John.G wrote: »

Just thinking there re effects of limescale on heating elements etc, If you can maintain the normal flow rate through the shower (heating can) then does the temperature eventually rise to its normal level?, ie, my shower (13 years) reaches (and always has) its normal running temperature in 12 to 17 secs. Does the build up of limescale then increase this time span and/or does the final temperature then reach its normal level? because if it doesn't then one would think that the heating element would burn out in a fairly short time due to overheating.

Quote from somewhere or other:
"Water containing 145 ppm of calcite, flowing at 3.5 litres per minute, produces in one year 4.8 kilograms of scale at 60ºc. At 80ºC this rises dramatically to 29.9 kilograms!"

In simple terms, limescale insulates the elements from the cooling effect of the water, so the water does not heat as much as with clean elements, which in turn means the elements and associated parts overheat.

A person might then over time,increase the temp dial as scale gets worse, which just reduces the water flow(which is how an electric shower temp dial increases water temp), making the overheating worse, so the overheat cutout will usually start operating at some stage.

beauf

I've noticed the following with our Triton showers. The temp becomes uncontrollable. It's either too hot one one power setting or too cold on the other. The actual temp control seems to have minimal effect. Our water has a lot of lime.

What's actually failing here. Is it fixable and will flushing help?

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote:

In simple terms, limescale insulates the elements from the cooling effect of the water, so the water does not heat as much as with clean elements, which in turn means the elements and associated parts overheat.

This is why I don't like the idea of repairing old showers over 10/12 years old. The heat from the element transfers to the body of the heating can but also up to the terminals & into the cables attached to the element. The protection coating on the cable dries out & looses its fire resistance.

I've seen many electric fires start this way.

killanena

My parents have 2 electric showers in their house. I remember I was there when they were being installed and the man just said not to run both at the same time. No issues the past 7 years with them other then an airclog or 2 that my dad or I can fix.

John.G

beauf wrote: »

I've noticed the following with our Triton showers. The temp becomes uncontrollable. It's either too hot one one power setting or too cold on the other. The actual temp control seems to have minimal effect. Our water has a lot of lime.

What's actually failing here. Is it fixable and will flushing help?

The temp control is really a flow control, you may have the blockage in the shower head, to prove this, just run the shower with the shower hose disconnected at the shower itself and see if you can achieve a comfortable temperature, you can then clean out the shower head (plenty of posts on here or the plumbing section regarding this) if blockage is in the shower itself then go to posts 32&33. I assume shower filter is clean and pump (if not mains
shower) is operating OK?.

See post #1 here... https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=107444837

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This is why I don't like the idea of repairing old showers over 10/12 years old. The heat from the element transfers to the body of the heating can but also up to the terminals & into the cables attached to the element. The protection coating on the cable dries out & looses its fire resistance.

I've seen many electric fires start this way.

I think I may have asked you previously but have you any photo of a badly limescaled heating can with the top cut off /removed, it would be interesting to see its condition.
I have seen one of a hot water cylinder with a electric immersion, the heating element itself didn't have a huge coating of scale but the cylinder itself was more than "1/2" full of limescale that presumably had fallen off the heating element during its heating/cooling cycle, the hot water heating coil appeared to have more scaling.

Sleeper12

John.G wrote: »

I think I may have asked you previously but have you any photo of a badly limescaled heating can with the top cut off /removed, it would be interesting to see its condition.
I have seen one of a hot water cylinder with a electric immersion, the heating element itself didn't have a huge coating of scale but the cylinder itself was more than "1/2" full of limescale that presumably had fallen off the heating element during its heating/cooling cycle, the hot water heating coil appeared to have more scaling.

I don't have any photos of one. I did cut away the heating can from one years ago. There was almost no room left for water in the can with the amount of limescale. It was so heavy to pick up & weighed twice, or more, than a new identical can. I'd rarely get a can like that in Dublin but next time I get one from Balbriggan (also in Dublin I keep reminding myself) I'll cut it up & post a photo

Sleeper12

John.G wrote: »

I think I may have asked you previously but have you any photo of a badly limescaled heating can with the top cut off /removed, it would be interesting to see its condition.
I have seen one of a hot water cylinder with a electric immersion, the heating element itself didn't have a huge coating of scale but the cylinder itself was more than "1/2" full of limescale that presumably had fallen off the heating element during its heating/cooling cycle, the hot water heating coil appeared to have more scaling.

Not the worst I've ever seen but something to look at

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This is why I don't like the idea of repairing old showers over 10/12 years old. The heat from the element transfers to the body of the heating can but also up to the terminals & into the cables attached to the element. The protection coating on the cable dries out & looses its fire resistance.

I've seen many electric fires start this way.

Didn't want to start a new thread but would you have any idea what the operating temperature is for the temperature regulator, item 16, in attachment for the above shower or for similar Triton showers with this outlet pipe regulator.
Thanks.
http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk/media/custom/upload/File-1379593830.pdf

Sleeper12

John.G wrote: »

Didn't want to start a new thread but would you have any idea what the operating temperature is for the temperature regulator, item 16, in attachment for the above shower or for similar Triton showers with this outlet pipe regulator.
Thanks.
http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk/media/custom/upload/File-1379593830.pdf

I don't recall that information John. This part hasn't been used in Irish Triton showers in the last 12 years or so