5 seat 4x4 commercial tax €333

hurikane

I have been browsing cars on Done Deal lately and noticed a lot of Range Rovers, Range Rover Sports, Discoverys etc with €333 tax and 5 seats. I know the government closed this loop hole a few years back and that has no bearing on vehicles before the loop hole closed.

Can you buy one of these for private use and continue to tax commercially?

Do people buy these through their business, then tax and insure?

Gumbo

hurikane wrote: »

I have been browsing cars on Done Deal lately and noticed a lot of Range Rovers, Range Rover Sports, Discoverys etc with €333 tax and 5 seats. I know the government closed this loop hole a few years back and that has no bearing on vehicles before the loop hole closed.

Can you buy one of these for private use and continue to tax commercially?

Do people buy these through their business, then tax and insure?

Commercial tax = Commercial Insurance.
The group rating of the jeep has changed to N1 so its not longer a private car.

hurikane

kceire wrote: »

Commercial tax = Commercial Insurance.
The group rating of the jeep has changed to N1 so its not longer a private car.

So if you buy one, that is currently taxed commercially you have to convert it back?

There must be a very small market for all those used commercially taxed 5 seat 4x4's

Gumbo

hurikane wrote: »

So if you buy one, that is currently taxed commercially you have to convert it back?

There must be a very small market for all those used commercially taxed 5 seat 4x4's

Quite the opposite. Its a big market.
I've had 3 of these myself (they are classified as Crew Cabs).

If you have the use for a Crew Cab, then you insure it commercially. Its usually cheaper than private too.
Otherwise, just buy the private version an tax it privately.

hurikane

hurikane wrote: »

So if you buy one, that is currently taxed commercially you have to convert it back?

There must be a very small market for all those used commercially taxed 5 seat 4x4's

Everyone who has one of these uses the commercially taxed version privately also, some only use it privately and just want the cheap tax (and they are dead right too). Commercial insurance also covers private use so no issue there either.

If you have any way at all to wangle the commercial tax why wouldn’t you and save a load of money every year in tax compared to a private one.

hurikane

Darrell Clean Body wrote: »

Everyone who has one of these uses the commercially taxed version privately also, some only use it privately and just want the cheap tax (and they are dead right too). Commercial insurance also covers private use so no issue there either.

If you have any way at all to wangle the commercial tax why wouldn’t you and save a load of money every year in tax compared to a private one.

Ok, I don’t have a business and I’m a PAYE worker. Can I buy one of these that is using the commercial tax system, and continue to tax it commercially? Then can I get commercial insurance?

Casati

hurikane wrote: »

Ok, I don’t have a business and I’m a PAYE worker. Can I buy one of these that is using the commercial tax system, and continue to tax it commercially? Then can I get commercial insurance?

You’ll find it hard to tax it as a commercial if your not self employed or a farmer but maybe you can tax it privately

Isambard

commercially taxed vehicles can only be used for commercial purposes and you have to sign a declaration to that effect.

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

commercially taxed vehicles can only be used for commercial purposes and you have to sign a declaration to that effect.

This is of course totally ignored though by all.

newcavanman

Darrell Clean Body wrote: »

This is of course totally ignored though by all.

of course it is, irish solution to an irish problem. only thing worried me is if you had an accident. the wrong Garda on the wrong day could make things very very akward indeed

_Brian

Taxing commercial vehicles is hit and miss depending on the county.

Some will ask for proof of commercial use like vat number or registered business number, herd number for farmers.

It’s very Irish as there seems to be no standard to be met but rather the whim of the particular county council staff.

Wildly Boaring

newcavanman wrote: »

of course it is, irish solution to an irish problem. only thing worried me is if you had an accident. the wrong Garda on the wrong day could make things very very akward indeed

How?
Once you're insured for private use on your commercial policy your insurance is fine.

Insurance companies insure these vehicles as a class of commercial vehicle rather than purely commercial use.

He could try to fine you for underpayment of road tax. That's about it.

Casati

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

How?
Once you're insured for private use on your commercial policy your insurance is fine.

Insurance companies insure these vehicles as a class of commercial vehicle rather than purely commercial use.

He could try to fine you for underpayment of road tax. That's about it.

There is also BIK issues potentially depending on the age of the vehicle but that won’t effect insurance in the event of a claim

Wildly Boaring

Casati wrote: »

There is also BIK issues potentially depending on the age of the vehicle but that won’t effect insurance in the event of a claim

These are deffo not vans for BIK purposes.

Revenue very specific on no rear seats for BIK.

newcavanman

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

How?
Once you're insured for private use on your commercial policy your insurance is fine.

Insurance companies insure these vehicles as a class of commercial vehicle rather than purely commercial use.

He could try to fine you for underpayment of road tax. That's about it.

you have signed a declaration stating that you wont use it privately , therefore if you had obeyed that, you may not have been in a position to be in the accident . alternatively, if you came across one of those multi checkpoints with Gardai and Customs, a regular on the N2 , you can start saying your prayers. Customs wouldnt bat an eye at takng the vehicle of you there and then

elperello

_Brian wrote: »

Taxing commercial vehicles is hit and miss depending on the county.

Some will ask for proof of commercial use like vat number or registered business number, herd number for farmers.

It’s very Irish as there seems to be no standard to be met but rather the whim of the particular county council staff.

Correct there are variations from county to county.
Check your local authority website and they will have a list of the documentation required. Go in to the office with that all in order and job done.
The staff in the office will go by the book.

Wildly Boaring

newcavanman wrote: »

you have signed a declaration stating that you wont use it privately , therefore if you had obeyed that, you may not have been in a position to be in the accident . alternatively, if you came across one of those multi checkpoints with Gardai and Customs, a regular on the N2 , you can start saying your prayers. Customs wouldnt bat an eye at takng the vehicle of you there and then

Agreed. To an extent

However the point I was responding to was referring to a crash.

People mix up the issues a lot when looking at commercials

Mad_maxx

Two year old Toyota landcruiser business class are nearly making as much as they were bought new in 2017

Casati

Casati wrote: »

There is also BIK issues potentially depending on the age of the vehicle but that won’t effect insurance in the event of a claim

Bik is based on the new price....the age of the vehicle isn't a factor.

BeepBeep67

I was looking to trade up my Touareg recently (it's taxed as a private vehicle) I was looking for a 2016/17.
These are difficult enough to get with low mileage, but they are also 9:1 commercially taxed versus private and if you want to tax privately it's on the old system, so nearly €1.5k annually.

newcavanman

newcavanman wrote: »

you have signed a declaration stating that you wont use it privately , therefore if you had obeyed that, you may not have been in a position to be in the accident . alternatively, if you came across one of those multi checkpoints with Gardai and Customs, a regular on the N2 , you can start saying your prayers. Customs wouldnt bat an eye at takng the vehicle of you there and then

Even if they ask (which they won’t) how will they know it’s not being used commercially unless you tell them?

I’ve gone through multi vehicle checkpoints and lots of Garda checkpoints driving a commercial 4x4 (being used for private use, commuting mostly) and never even asked anything just waved though. I know countless people (multiple in my own family) driving commercials fully privately (even as family cars) or partially for private use and never have I heard a single issue ever at a Garda or customs checkpoint from anyone. The only issue will be taxing it the first time but plenty manage it.

Isambard

Darrell Clean Body wrote: »

Even if they ask (which they won’t) how will they know it’s not being used commercially unless you tell them?

I’ve gone through multi vehicle checkpoints and lots of Garda checkpoints driving a commercial 4x4 (being used for private use, commuting mostly) and never even asked anything just waved though. I know countless people (multiple in my own family) driving commercials fully privately (even as family cars) or partially for private use and never have I heard a single issue ever at a Garda or customs checkpoint from anyone. The only issue will be taxing it the first time but plenty manage it.

that's OK for now, but your comeupence is coming. This will be stamped out. Sick to death of chancers taking the piss.

Titzon Toast

Isambard wrote: »

that's OK for now, but your comeupence is coming. This will be stamped out. Sick to death of chancers taking the piss.

God, it's really eating you up inside isn't it?!

Good old fashioned Irish begrudgery, you couldn't bate it with a big shtick.

Isambard

Titzon Toast wrote: »

God, it's really eating you up inside isn't it?!

Good old fashioned Irish begrudgery, you couldn't bate it with a big shtick.

and why not?
I object to anyone taking advantage and not paying their dues. If they all paid up like I do, maybe I wouldn't have to pay so much. Commercial Tax is to facilitate business, nothing else. Private use is not allowed,

Oh and I'm not Irish,

Titzon Toast

Hate the game, not the players.

Tax is still being paid here, let's not forget that.

We get ripped off here when it comes to motor tax, it sickens me.

mickdw

To be fair, it was said publically by government at the time that these rules came in that the intention was not to stop the genuine owner of a commercial using it to go to the shop for milk etc.

The intention was to stop black economy traders availing of advantages in place for tax paying businesses. To my mind that is all good, the tradesman on the dole would not be able to tax his van. The Paye worker wouldn't be able to get cheap tax etc. The media blew it up a bit claiming the government were limiting genuine people from stopping at the shop on the way home from work etc. I think it was j gormley at the time clarified that there was not going to be anyone asking if someone was on the way to work or to the shop.

elperello

mickdw wrote: »

To be fair, it was said publically by government at the time that these rules came in that the intention was not to stop the genuine owner of a commercial using it to go to the shop for milk etc.

The intention was to stop black economy traders availing of advantages in place for tax paying businesses. To my mind that is all good, the tradesman on the dole would not be able to tax his van. The Paye worker wouldn't be able to get cheap tax etc. The media blew it up a bit claiming the government were limiting genuine people from stopping at the shop on the way home from work etc. I think it was j gormley at the time clarified that there was not going to be anyone asking if someone was on the way to work or to the shop.

Yes, in the real world there is nobody asking questions if the vehicle is taxed, tested and insured.

Just one other thing, an out of work tradesman will be able to tax his van. It is only for the first taxing that the documentation has to be presented at the Motor Tax Office. After that you just renew online.

Isambard

mickdw wrote: »

To be fair, it was said publically by government at the time that these rules came in that the intention was not to stop the genuine owner of a commercial using it to go to the shop for milk etc.

The intention was to stop black economy traders availing of advantages in place for tax paying businesses. To my mind that is all good, the tradesman on the dole would not be able to tax his van. The Paye worker wouldn't be able to get cheap tax etc. The media blew it up a bit claiming the government were limiting genuine people from stopping at the shop on the way home from work etc. I think it was j gormley at the time clarified that there was not going to be anyone asking if someone was on the way to work or to the shop.

These rules have always been there and it matters not a bit what some random person may say publicly. They are just beginning to be enforced more rigourously.

The Rules were always bent and broken by the milk shopping etc , and I wouldn't really have a problem with that,but when people are lying to get commercial tax on a 5 seat 4x4 which is never used commercially, or used mostly privately then it's time to say stop.

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

............but when people are lying to get commercial tax on a 5 seat 4x4 which is never used commercially, or used mostly privately then it's time to say stop.

There are plenty folk running 5 seat commercials as company "vans" and paying just the 5% BIK or none at all if they are claiming the pooled vehicle spiel.
I read on here I think a guy attempting to justify it as he was claiming to bus around a load of non Irish IT folk that cant drive who didn't even work for him.

The commercial tax "dodge" is tiny compared to folk paying 5% as opposed to 30% BIK per annum on €50k (+ in many cases) vehicles.

Low lying fruit for revenue in lots of cases but they don't seem overly bothered for whatever reason.

road_high

Isambard wrote: »

that's OK for now, but your comeupence is coming. This will be stamped out. Sick to death of chancers taking the piss.

That’s pathetic- it’s little wonder we live in such a controlling, overtaxed and over regulated nanny state. If people can tax a vehicle commercially more power to them

road_high

Isambard wrote: »

These rules have always been there and it matters not a bit what some random person may say publicly. They are just beginning to be enforced more rigourously.

The Rules were always bent and broken by the milk shopping etc , and I wouldn't really have a problem with that,but when people are lying to get commercial tax on a 5 seat 4x4 which is never used commercially, or used mostly privately then it's time to say stop.

Who are you to dictate what way private citizens use a vehicle?

cpoh1

road_high wrote: »

That’s pathetic- it’s little wonder we live in such a controlling, overtaxed and over regulated nanny state. If people can tax a vehicle commercially more power to them

Its actually the opposite - this country is very lenient in general around motoring issues. If we were held to the same standard as a lot of other European countries we would have a lot more people and cars off the road.

Isambard

road_high wrote: »

Who are you to dictate what way private citizens use a vehicle?

not me the Government who you elected.

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

that's OK for now, but your comeupence is coming. This will be stamped out. Sick to death of chancers taking the piss.

I won’t, I have a genuine reason for using a commercial but it’s probably about 5% of my actual usage. If I ever was questioned I’d have no problem claiming commercial use or proving it. Always have a few bits in the back that mean I’m always “on the way” to do something related to my commercial use (the bits aren’t there for a story for the guards I do gunuinely need it with me on occasion).

relax carry on

Augeo wrote: »

There are plenty folk running 5 seat commercials as company "vans" and paying just the 5% BIK or none at all if they are claiming the pooled vehicle spiel.
I read on here I think a guy attempting to justify it as he was claiming to bus around a load of non Irish IT folk that cant drive who didn't even work for him.

The commercial tax "dodge" is tiny compared to folk paying 5% as opposed to 30% BIK per annum on €50k (+ in many cases) vehicles.

Low lying fruit for revenue in lots of cases but they don't seem overly bothered for whatever reason.

The 5% van BIK versus car BIK is a relatively easy one for an auditor to spot and thanks to PAYE modernisation, BIK information is much easier to use meaning those companies attempting to abuse the system should be more easily spotted.

Darrell Clean Body

Darrell Clean Body wrote: »

I won’t, I have a genuine reason for using a commercial but it’s probably about 5% of my actual usage. If I ever was questioned I’d have no problem claiming commercial use or proving it. Always have a few bits in the back that mean I’m always “on the way” to do something related to my commercial use (the bits aren’t there for a story for the guards I do gunuinely need it with me on occasion).

I thought you drive a Golf GTi?

Mad_maxx

cpoh1 wrote: »

Its actually the opposite - this country is very lenient in general around motoring issues. If we were held to the same standard as a lot of other European countries we would have a lot more people and cars off the road.

Road tax on the likes of a range rover is a third of the cost in the UK

Don't get me started on VRT

Marcusm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Road tax on the likes of a range rover is a third of the cost in the UK

Don't get me started on VRT

When I drove my Range Rover in the U.K., the motor tax was 1/6th of what it is now that I drive here. I still have more integrity than to fraudulently claim it’s a goods vehicle when it plainly isn’t.

mickdw

elperello wrote: »

Yes, in the real world there is nobody asking questions if the vehicle is taxed, tested and insured.

Just one other thing, an out of work tradesman will be able to tax his van. It is only for the first taxing that the documentation has to be presented at the Motor Tax Office. After that you just renew online.

To clarify, I meant the dodgy tradesman who is not registered for anything but woeking and drawing dole wont be able to tax van - proper order.

cpoh1

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Road tax on the likes of a range rover is a third of the cost in the UK

Don't get me started on VRT

Yes and fuel costs are 15-20% higher in the uk also. They also have lots of speed cameras, a policing system that is not as lenient/negligent as over here and they salt all their roads.

I prefer being a motorist over here personally, poor tax costs and all.

Isambard

Darrell Clean Body wrote: »

I won’t, I have a genuine reason for using a commercial but it’s probably about 5% of my actual usage. If I ever was questioned I’d have no problem claiming commercial use or proving it. Always have a few bits in the back that mean I’m always “on the way” to do something related to my commercial use (the bits aren’t there for a story for the guards I do gunuinely need it with me on occasion).

That's the way to do it, but harder to prove when you have the wife and kids in a 5 seater 4x4 though.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

I thought you drive a Golf GTi?

It’s one of the vehicles I drive.

Isambard wrote: »

That's the way to do it, but harder to prove when you have the wife and kids in a 5 seater 4x4 though.

Well I’d actually give myself a fighting chance even in that case but it doesn’t really matter anyway as nobody cares, there is any amount of 5 seat commercials being used as family cars sign out issue many even with the vat reclaimed too etc.

Isambard

exactly my objection, and it won't last forever.

playbus

I wouldn't be too worried. For those who have purchased any of the Land Rover Discovery Utility 5 seat N1 Commercials, any year, any spec, there is now a massive demand for these on the island of Malta, where such vehicles are also considered to be handy for tax purposes. Unlike Ireland, they tax N1 vehicles at the commercial rate regardless........

Dealers on the island are paying top prices for imports from Ireland - proof available by looking online where you will find pictorial proof of this....